M14/M1A class rifles

[AbitNutz]

The M14/M1A was one of the last full sized battle rifles made that fired a full power cartridge and used a wooden stock and was constructed of labor intensive milled parts.

Were any superior to the M1A/M14?

1) FN-49
2) MAS 49
3) Ag M42 Ljungman
4) SVT-40
5) Gewehr 43

Any other candidates?

If you were going to make a complete collection of rifles of this class, what rifles would be in it?

 

[justin22885]

id consider most of them on the list to be better than the garand.. but also consider the hakim rifle as well, its a full stock 8mm rifle used by the egyptians

 

[Driftertank]

I wouldn't ask about anything being superior to anything else, unless you want to start a flame war. Lol

 

[Dave P]

No. None better.

 

[eldon519]

Well most of the world chose the FN FAL over the M14. I'm not sure what defining line you are using but the HK G3 also was very popular. Both can be had with wood furniture.

 

[stoky]

The author of an ecclesiastical titled gun guide book originally choose the FAL, based on some rather arbitrarily applied numerical criteria. He latter changed his mind and close the M14/M1A, but his most recent bent seems to be wavering toward the AR.

 

[lysanderxiii]

There are many reasons a government picks one weapon over another, it is not always (I would guess even rarely) based on the merits or drawbacks of the weapons envolved.

Example, the West German Government wanted domestic production rights for the G1 (FAL), but FN (Belgian Government) wouldn't allow it, so the FRG went with the Spanish CETME design and the G3 was produced by H&K....

 

[Timtoolman]

hard choice! I chose M1A due to familiarity and a Springfield, some good choices there

 

[justin22885]

There are many reasons a government picks one weapon over another, it is not always (I would guess even rarely) based on the merits or drawbacks of the weapons envolved.

Example, the West German Government wanted domestic production rights for the G1 (FAL), but FN (Belgian Government) wouldn't allow it, so the FRG went with the Spanish CETME design and the G3 was produced by H&K....

our government will choose the product from the company that offers the most amount of money to the politician or bureaucrat in charge of making the decision, or said bureaucrat or politician will be financially invested into a company and give out contracts based on that (like feinstein got busted for doing)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by Dave P

No. None better.

Agreed. I trained on the M1 in 1962, and later as an adviser in '66-'67, my issue M2 carbine got wrapped around a tree. I bummed an M1 from the ARVN unit I was advising and carried that the rest of my tour.

On my second tour, I was a company commander and bullied my battalion commander into getting me two M14 sniper rifles (this was pre-M21) and kept one for myself.

I'm probably one of the last American soldiers to use both the M1 and M14 in combat -- and those rifles were head-and-shoulders above all contemporary rifles.

 

[tark]

Of the competitors you listed, none are as good as the M-14. It has been truthfully stated that most of the world went with the FN-FAL. We didn't. There were a lot of politics involved in that decision. Personally I have one major complaint regarding that rifle, that unprotected rear sight hanging out in the wind.

Of course the M-14 is a dinosaur in today's world. It is outclassed in every militarily measured way by the M-16/ M-4, save for one; Power and penetration.

Don't get me wrong, I was issued an M-14 in Nam, ( 1968) loved it, and had to sleep with it, lest I find it gone in the morning. Stolen by a real soldier who had more need of it that I. (I was a REMF)

 

[mshootnit]

Having only shot the m1a, I cant compare it to the others on the list. But in semi auto rapid fire it can hold its own to the G3, and AK in 308, and AR10.

 

[Whiskey11]

Tark certainly brought up an interesting perspective on the platform: It is a dinosaur. Unlike the dinosaurs, no amount of attempts to remove the M14 from combat service have succeeded in any meaningful way outside of the original change to the M16 family. It is a dinosaur with amazing reliability when not abused (see: Not dragging it through the mud or literally jamming the action full of mud, see also: only the AR survived said testing) and produces some pretty good accuracy in the more accurized versions of the rifle.

The interesting part is that when the KAC SR25/M110 came out and was going to "replace" the M14, the systematic issues with said platform brought our military right back to the old warhorse. I suspect a bit more than just nostalgia is bringing it back into service and keeping it there. Aside from weight, the platform isn't exactly giving up much to it's replacement with the use of the Sage EBR chassis.

As for "labor intensive" receivers... keep in mind how much of the rifle was already being produced by Springfield Armory (the real one) due to the M1 Garand production. The receiver dimensions are the same but all the lessons learned to make the receivers manually had already been learned with the Garand. I doubt it took much "retraining" to make M14 receivers at Springfield Armory.

I often wonder what would happen if the refinement that went into the M16's production was applied to the M14 receiver and production of it. CNC has come A LONG way and I bet large portions of an M14 receiver can be done without changing the way the part sits in the machine. Sadly, the demand for these rifles will never be high enough to justify that much attention to detail in a more affordable package.

 

[stiab]

The M14/M1A was one of the last full sized battle rifles made that fired a full power cartridge and used a wooden stock...

Also available with fiberglass stocks, two boys in my squad had them.

 

[ttarp]

OP, take a look at the Hk SL-7, not better than the M14 in any way(except looks of course, but that doesn't count), but its an interesting wood and steel rifle somewhat reminiscent of the G43.

 

[justin22885]

OP, take a look at the Hk SL-7, not better than the M14 in any way(except looks of course, but that doesn't count), but its an interesting wood and steel rifle somewhat reminiscent of the G43.

thats basically nothing more than an HK91 with a full wood stock, uses the same roller delayed action, in fact the bolts look to be the same with different carriers.. but it does fit what the OP is looking for

 

[Robert]

And what is the cost difference in a SL7 and the M1A?

Edit:
I am seeing SL7s for $2000+ and mags at a round $250 each. It would be a very neat rifle to have, if you have the money.

 

[ttarp]

And what is the cost difference in a SL7 and the M1A?

Well if you search around long enough you can find beaters for $1,000, but a nice SL-7 would probably be north of $1,500. The M1A is a much more practical and available choice of course, just thought the op might find it interesting.

 

[d2wing]

The main benefit of the real M-14 was it's accuracy. The ones I used were very accurate.

 

[Whiskey11]

It really depends on what you are calling accurate. A USGI M14 had a 3-4 MOA requirement with M80 Ball. 3-4" at 100 yards isn't what I consider accurate, even for a battle rifle. Even for the 60's that's functionally accurate. It was REALLY EASY to get that accuracy at the time because of the extremely long sight radius.

Heck, my M1A Loaded in a Walnut stock (basically a National Match sans bedded stock and unitized gas cylinder), out of the box shot about 2 MOA with 175gr Sierra Match Kings. A National Match M1A from SAI is right around the 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA. The SuperMatch right at 1 MOA. You are going to PAY for a 1 MOA M14 pattern rifle. Think $2500+.

That's not to say they can't be made accurate though. I dropped my M1A Loaded into a Troy MCS chassis and it will print consistent 1.5 MOA groups with 175gr SMK Federal Gold Medal Match. It will print 1.25 MOA 10 shot groups all day long if I do my job. I also changed out the trigger for an adjustable one that pulls at 4.5lbs and has zero creep. I have a Sadlak NM Spring Guide and Sadlak TiN piston (non-grooved). It shoots great and it! It will never be sold.

I just don't consider the M14 an "out of the box" accurate rifle. Especially not when I can go to Smith & Wesson and pick up an M&P10 that will print sub MOA groups out of the box for the same or less as an SAI M1A. The Action is capable, but it requires work to get real accuracy out of it.

 

[justin22885]

if the SL7 using the same roller delay system as the G3 is as reliable as the G3/HK91, then it has the M1A beat in that category, and with a little work, probably in accuracy too, no idea the weight difference though

 

[ttarp]

A big difference between the Hk91 and SL-7 is the charging handle location, frankly its a pain to operate, the safety is inconveniently placed too. Also add the limited capacity and very expensive magazines. And while it very well might be a bit more reliable, I'm not entirely convinced its as robust as an M1A. The triggers on these rifles are amazing however, and I've heard they're popular in Europe as match rifles, but thats just hearsay.

 

[Tedzilla]

I enjoyed the 50s and 60s too, but my M-14 was replaced by an HK-91 which in turn was replaced by an FN SCAR 17S.
'67 C2 big block Vette was great... Don't try to run it against a new C7.

 

[Nature Boy]

'67 C2 big block Vette was great... Don't try to run it against a new C7

That's so true and illustrates the power of nostalgia in shaping our perceptions.

Having said that, it would still be a hard choice between a C2 4 speed big block and a new C7 Z06

 

[justin22885]

i went from the M1A, to the PTR91, to a mas 49/56, had to sell the previous two for financial reasons and the MAS 49/56 while better in my opinion than the M1A, still isnt as good as the PTR/HK91

honestly, i cant understand why said rifle has to be full stocked, full stock rifles are almost all open-top in nature which require the bolt to be removed from the top of the action which generally gets in the way of a good, solid scope mount one may believe a .308 rifle needs, this was probably my biggest complaint of both the M1A and MAS and why ultimately options like the HK91, FAL, and AR10 are better