Machine gun lease

J

jag22

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Jan 6, 2021
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Okay, I haven't researched this at all so I might be wrong immediately. Just a crazy idea popped into my head. So is it illegal to own a machine gun ( forget Gov licenses for this discussion) or just be in possession of one? If A legally owns a machine gun can he lend it to B who wants to go shoot it? Does A have to be by his side when B shoots it or can B say thanks, I'll get it back to you next weekend? If that is legal could B say boy that was so much fun could I rent/lease it from you for a month for X number of dollars? There was a comment in another post about how owning a machine gun might be fun at first but after the newness wears off, not so much. Kind of like buying your first boat. Boat owners will know what I mean. I know I borrowed a shotgun one time to go hunting because I didn't own one. In a state with strict gun laws would that be illegal?
Okay, have at it.
 
As the rules on non-owner of a machine gun have been explained to me:
If A legally owns a machine gun, B can shoot it as long as the legal owner A is present and legally "in possession" (in control) of the machinegun.
B cannot be in unsupervised possession or control of the machine gun absent the legal owner A.
You can "rent" an NFA firearm to try out at a shooting range but you cannot take it off the range. The MG must stay under the legal owner's control.
It is not like leasing a rental boat to see if you like the reality of boating.
 
Thanks, about what I expected. I knew there would be paperwork involved in there somewhere.
 
A. Depends on your state. In Illinois you can not own a machine gun.
 
To be clear, the NFA rules are about possession, not ownership. For example, when you go to a dealer to buy a machine gun, you have beneficial ownership when the money changes hands and the conditions of sale are satisfied. But you can't take possession until the ATF approves the transfer (which usually takes many months). In the meantime, the dealer acts as the bailee (custodian) but he doesn't have the beneficial title. If he sells the gun again to someone else, that's theft.

"Possession" means physical control. Someone else can shoot the gun, but it must be within your span of control. You have to be close enough that you can grab the gun back if necessary. You can't just lend the gun to someone to take away for the weekend, for example. (Unless he's a "responsible party" listed on your gun trust.)

It can be as complicated or as simple as you want to make it.
 
GE-Mini-Gun said:
Renting a machine gun (even if legal)...you had better have a CRAP TON if insurance...a CRAP TON!
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The range that is "renting" the machine gun has tight control over it, and the range, accordingly, is the party that carries the insurance. "Renting" a machine gun is not like renting a car. You don't have that degree of control over the machine gun.
 
jag22 said:
There was a comment in another post about how owning a machine gun might be fun at first but after the newness wears off, not so much.
Click to expand...

This was true for me - when I moved from CA to NV I started buying more guns and wound up buying a FA Uzi for $5k. I liked shooting it for a while and bought a lot of stuff for it like a .22 kit, big drum mag and lots of mags. But I got tired of it and sold it with all the extras for $7500. Never have regretted selling it.

GE-Mini-Gun said:
Renting a machine gun (even if legal)...you had better have a CRAP TON if insurance...a CRAP TON!
Click to expand...

There's places here that rent them and there's even a place where you can go up in a helicopter and shoot a MG into targets in the desert. It's expensive and I think any insurance is included. The chopper shoot starts at $550 and you don't get much ammo and goes up over $5k with multiple people and better guns.
 
jag22 said:
There was a comment in another post about how owning a machine gun might be fun at first but after the newness wears off, not so much.
Click to expand...
Yes, the allure of a machine gun wears off if you buy a machine gun primarily to shoot. In my case, I bought the MGs to fill important holes in my military collection. That rationale still holds. When I ventured into the shooting side (for example with a silenced MAC 11), I quickly got rid of those guns.
 
I took my son and some friends out for a one day, all in MG shoot. The owner brought a dozen, AKs, ARs, MP40, Glock 17 machine pistol, Sig MPX, M1919, Maxim Zeppelin Gun, pretty much everything but an M2 because he didn't have one at the time. We all shot them all day, outdoors at a variety of targets. It was expensive and a blast but I have to say, I feel almost no need to ever own a machine gun now. Glad I did it, much cheaper than ever buying my own, which I can't do in California anyway but even when I move to America, I would never buy a machine gun now. Super fun but ammo costs a fortune these days, even to reload and the only way a machine gun is worth it and fun is to shoot it a lot.

For most people, do it once, do it right and you are done. A few fanatics will still want to own one, but not the 99% who try one.
 
Shooting machine guns, with the price of ammo being what it is these days, is like setting fire to $100 bills. That applies regardless of whether you are "renting" or owning the guns, and it would still be true even if there was no NFA.
 
The allure of crew-served weapons fades very fast. While it's possible to do the work of three people by yourself, it's a lot more trips with heavy stuff, and ever more longer the further from being a 6000kcal burning 20 y/o a person is, too.
 
jag22 said:
<SNIP>
Kind of like buying your first boat. Boat owners will know what I mean.
Click to expand...
I know exactly what you’re talking about … I own 2 machine guns and a registered HK sear for HK9X firearms, it can turn any HK9X host into a machine gun, I have 6 hosts for it.

While I’m not tired of them after 15 years of ownership, ammo costs and I only have 2 places to shoot them.
The escalating value doesn’t get old either!
 
Last edited:
entropy said:
It's a lot more fun when Uncle Sugar is footing the bill:

Rounds I've fired FA as a civilian: @100.

Round I've fired FA while in uniform: can't even hazard a guess, well over 10,000 for sure.
Click to expand...

CapnMac said:
The allure of crew-served weapons fades very fast. While it's possible to do the work of three people by yourself, it's a lot more trips with heavy stuff, and ever more longer the further from being a 6000kcal burning 20 y/o a person is, too.
Click to expand...

While it is fun to shoot and tear up targets on Uncle's dime the allure definitely fades real quick when you are assigned to a crew served weapon. My primary weapon as a junior enlisted member (E1- E4) was the M60. The idea of playing "Rambo" faded fast during the first field exercise. The M60 didn't get nicknamed The Pig for no reason.
 
CapnMac said:
ATFE admitted that they screwed up the FAQ is a huge way, one that not even they could get away with.
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That's right. The video is way overwrought. There has been no change to the longstanding ATF interpretation.
CapnMac said:
The allure of crew-served weapons fades very fast. While it's possible to do the work of three people by yourself, it's a lot more trips with heavy stuff, and ever more longer the further from being a 6000kcal burning 20 y/o a person is, too.
Click to expand...
The solution for us older folks is to mount the crew-served weapon (a MaDeuce, for example) on a military vehicle, which also carries the ammo supply. (Then you run into the problem of lacking the upper-body strength to even cock the gun...)
 
CapnMac said:
And, all the joys of headspace on the Browning designs :D

Or the need for a linking machine to fill the boxes on the vehicle.
Click to expand...

At least the headspace and timing does not have to be set with every barrel change with the newest version of the M2. And yes setting the timing was just as important as setting the headspace.
 
AlexanderA said:
You can't just lend the gun to someone to take away for the weekend, for example. (Unless he's a "responsible party" listed on your gun trust.)
Click to expand...
I am surprised that unscrupulous individuals haven't sold rights to be added onto their trust. Think, $2500 per...people get to co-own a machine gun without the full cost of buying one. Like a NFA time share.
 
I’m kind of surprised to hear all the folks that don’t enjoy shooting them.

My Mother in law came to one of our machinegun shoots, the morning after our 4th of July fireworks. About half way through, she asked, “what are these good for? Doesn’t that cost a lot of money?”

I informed her that we spent thousands more for ~ 45 minute fireworks show the night before, then I asked her if she remembered everyone smiling as much afterwords. She got it at that point and even gave one of them a go.
 
Well there is a bit of a difference between a civilian getting to shoot a machine gun a time or two and the GI that has to carry and maintain a machine gun all of the time.

I was also issued a M16A1 and I can only remember shooting it on auto one time (after basic training). And most did not care for or use the 3 round burst on the M16A2. Even the M3A1 SMG was heavy for what it was when you had to carry it all of the time. The M3 and M3A1 weigh 8 pounds empty. Now add the metal magazines loaded with 30 rounds of 45ACP and the weight starts to add up. I was also issued the M3A1.
 
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