Mad Max Sawed-Off/Auto-Burglar Shotty …

[S.Crockett]

Double tubes only. Who’s got one? What gauge? What length barrels? And did you build it (F-1) … or buy it (F-4)?

LGS has a few has-been SXS on the Used Rack in 12ga, 20ga, and 16ga. Feeling the need to buy one and go Mad Max on it and chop it down to Old School Ithaca A/B specs.

 

[N555]

I have one I'm going to chop. I think it's an Ithaca clone.

 

[armoredman]

If you fully Mad Max it, is it a $5 AOW or a $200 SBS?

 

[12Bravo20]

It would be an AOW if it does not have a shoulder stock.

And the cost to make your own AOW or SBS and register it on a Form 1 is the same cost of $200. The cost to transfer an AOW on a Form 4 is $5

 

[S.Crockett]

It would be an AOW if it does not have a shoulder stock.
And the cost to make your own AOW or SBS and register it on a Form 1 is the same cost of $200. The cost to transfer an AOW on a Form 4 is $5

Yeah, if I "make" it - say I use Gramp's old 20ga Ithaca-Flues SXS as the donor - it's a Form 1. So $200.

 

[S.Crockett]

I have one I'm going to chop. I think it's an Ithaca clone.

Looks Old School!

 

[armoredman]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[N555]

Oh I forgot to add, always build.
A form1 for a sawed off is going through in less than 2 months most of the time currently.
A form4, is more like a year, at least for a silencer, I don't think form4 sawed offs are going much faster.

 

[Jim Watson]

Do you know of somebody altering the tangs of a sawn-off into proper Auto-Burglar pistol grip form?

 

[S.Crockett]

Do you know of somebody altering the tangs of a sawn-off into proper Auto-Burglar pistol grip form?
View attachment 1153778

Only the Pedersoli 410/.45LC “Howdah” pistol that I know of, but it is explicitly styled as a modern A/B.

Link here:

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2016/12/pedersoli-howdah-pistol/

 

[Jim Watson]

Ah, OK. The Howdah started out as a muzzleloader. Looks like they have gone down the "Judge" path to keep a breechloader legal. Taurus reportedly showed a 28 ga Judge but could not get it classed as a sporting arm and who wants a DD revolver?

 

[entropy]

Kind of a waste of a good barrel and action of a classic Flues in my opinion, but if you are going to do it, do it right and have a Auto-Burglar grip made for it.

 

[S.Crockett]

Kind of a waste of a good barrel and action of a classic Flues in my opinion, but if you are going to do it, do it right and have a Auto-Burglar grip made for it.

Those grips all varied even on the original A/Bs and later, “modern” iterations, like the Holland Firearms variant. The linked article below is from 1969. Scroll down to page 36 and check the grip.

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/G1069x.pdf

That said, the grip on Mad Max’s shotty pistol in the original film and Road Warrior was closer to a “bird’s head” style with a grip cap.

 

[entropy]

Having fired SxS with both type of grips, the Auto Burglar transfers more recoil to the arm, but is much more controllable.

 

[GarrettJ]

It would be an AOW if it does not have a shoulder stock.

Incorrect. It would still be an SBS, as it was “made from a shotgun”.

You would have to find a receiver that had never had a stock installed to make an AOW of this type.

But as noted, it’s a $200 tax to “make” either. So register it as an SBS and you have the option to put a stock on later, should you desire.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe there are any SXS receivers made in the US, and ATF will not allow any to be imported without being assembled into functioning shotguns first.

I believe John Norrell made around 20 of them back in the ‘80s. And then ATF cut off the import of receivers.

This is why you don’t see any inexpensive double barrel AOWs for sale.

 

[12Bravo20]

I'll just leave the following definitions direct from the ATF. I won't bother arguing with anyone about it.

Any Other Weapon definition: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/wha...her weapon,with combination shotgun and rifle

What does “any other weapon" mean?
The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Short Barrel Shogun definition: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...n having a barrel or,than 18 inches in length.

Short Barreled Shotgun

Classification

Short Barreled Shotgun

Distinctive Characteristics

Shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

The difference is if the firearm made from a shotgun is designed/built to be concealed then it is an AOW per the ATF

 

[S.Crockett]

* * * Short Barrel Shogun definition: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-4#:~:text=Short Barreled Shotgun&text=Shotgun having a barrel or,than 18 inches in length.

The difference is if the firearm made from a shotgun is designed/built to be concealed then it is an AOW per the ATF

What if you “make” one just to make it short (e.g., 9”-10” dbl barrels) regardless of whether it’s concealable (even if concealability is a secondary consequence of your build)?

I’d err on the side of paying the $200.00 tax, not the lesser AOW fee. If I was wrong and overpaid, I’m sure BATFE would send me a quick partial refund.

 

[12Bravo20]

What if you “make” one just to make it short (e.g., 9”-10” dbl barrels) regardless of whether it’s concealable (even if concealability is a secondary consequence of your build)?

I’d err on the side of paying the $200.00 tax, not the lesser AOW fee. If I was wrong and overpaid, I’m sure BATFE would send me a quick partial refund.

The fee/tax to make an AOW or SBS is the same cost of $200 due when you file your Form 1. So it will not matter one bit which you make, it still will cost you $200.

People sometimes get things confused when it comes to making versus transferring an AOW. The fee to make an AOW is $200 (Form 1), the fee to transfer an AOW is $5 (Form 4).

 

[S.Crockett]

The fee/tax to make an AOW or SBS is the same cost of $200 due when you file your Form 1. So it will not matter one bit which you make, it still will cost you $200.

People sometimes get things confused when it comes to making versus transferring an AOW. The fee to make an AOW is $200 (Form 1), the fee to transfer an AOW is $5 (Form 4).

So whether I eventually decide to carry it IWB (ouch!) or openly exposed in a side-leg holster, the “making” process means it’s a F-1 and a $200 tax.

 

[12Bravo20]

So whether I eventually decide to carry it IWB (ouch!) or openly exposed in a side-leg holster, the “making” process means it’s a F-1 and a $200 tax.

That is correct.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Pedersoli offers one in .410 bore.

Severely underpowered compared to a proper 20 or 12 gauge though, limiting it’s cool factor dramatically.

 

[12Bravo20]

The problem with a Pedersoli Howdah is that is has a rifled barrel since it is chambered in 45 LC and 410. Pedersoli had to chamber it in 45 LC with a rifled barrel for it to be legal for import. And rifling plays havoc on shot patterns when shooting 410 shells. The Howdah is no different than the Taurus Judge or S&W Governor in this aspect.

And 410 buckshot out of a shotgun with at least an 18" barrel is pretty darn effective. A 3" 410 buckshot shell holds 5 pellets of 000 buckshot and those pellets are moving just as fast as pellets out of a 2 3/4" 12 shell. You just have 4 less pellets. And I have posted photos of how 5 pellets of 000 buckshot out of a 14" and 18" cylinder bore 410 barrel does several times in the shotgun section.

 

[GarrettJ]

I'll just leave the following definitions direct from the ATF.

That is not a legal definition. That is ATF’s opinion. In several instances they have given information that is incorrect, incomplete, or intentionally misleading.

One should refer to the actual codified law or regulation for terms and definitions. In this instance, I would suggest 18 USC § 921(a)(6)

 

[S.Crockett]

The problem with a Pedersoli Howdah is that is has a rifled barrel since it is chambered in 45 LC and 410. Pedersoli had to chamber it in 45 LC with a rifled barrel for it to be legal for import. And rifling plays havoc on shot patterns when shooting 410 shells. The Howdah is no different than the Taurus Judge or S&W Governor in this aspect.

Yeah, I think the Pedersoli A/B pistol (or Howdah) looks cool, but for the price-point you see being asked the odd-ball dual chambering is a turn-off. 45LC/.410 is just an expedient work-around for the BATFE regs or opinions governing SBSs.

 

[N555]

Do you know of somebody altering the tangs of a sawn-off into proper Auto-Burglar pistol grip form?

View attachment 1153778

If it's like mine then you would be cutting into the safety and cutting away part of the fire control group.