Man with assault rifle joins crowds outside president's Phoenix venue

[CredoUtIntelligam]

Dangerous Territory

Probably NOT the best of threads to dive into as a new poster. However.

I Agree with the following completely:

So, you would not object to your 2nd Amendment rights being rescinded when the President is nearby?

How about your 1st Amendment rights? ....

Or your freedom of religion? ....

How about your 4th Amendment rights? ....

Why are we so quick to give up our rights? The only things I am willing to give up are those things which have no value to me. My liberty is very valuable. It is worth contending for.

What we need to understand however, is that our Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is not under attack or in jeopardy. It has been suspended, and that is where we stand right now.

We currently exist in a limbo state, vying to fully win back this most important of rights. That fact that is is currently in suspension means the political winds can blow it away completely at the slightest whim of a panicked public.

We are 100 years into a philosophical war in which we have been loosing badly. Beaten and bruised, the RKBA movement is not at a juncture where it can afford a sane man, completely within his rights, being shown in an unfavorable light on television. Now is not the time to charge forward under the delusion that being right will win us anything. We have to go forward with a practical intent to win back these rights fully and forever.

This means normalizing firearms ownership, usage, and carrying in the eyes of the public. DC vs Heller is making an absolutely monumental impact in lower courts in this regard, even as we speak.

Do not let the media frame this argument for us. This means steering clear of venues which catch the Main Stream Media's attention. The MSM cannot be convinced of the normalcy of firearms EVER. They will forever, irrespective of circumstance or public opinion, be the philosophical enemy of the 2nd Amendment. Do not throw our rights at the feet of these people.

This is the argument to make among friends, acquaintances, the curious, and the uninformed. This is the argument to silently make by open carrying where people have a chance to make up their own minds. This is not an argument that will gain ground by screaming it into the uncaring wind of the media.

 

[JWF III]

I think these people may be anti-2A activists, hoping to scare people into passing more gun laws.

Go to the AZS link (posted on page 6?). Several of the members there were with the AR carrier. They knew him well enough to call him by a first name (Chris). This was no anti-bs-setup. They went well beyond what they had to do by law, just to make sure nothing went wrong.

Wyman

Just to make it easy for all the nay sayers. Here's the link again...

http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/vi...86525&start=20

 

[Balrog]

If they were not anti-2A activists, then they were surely misguided. I don't think the pro-gun community is going to be proud of these people when all is said and done. We had better hope there is no incident... if so, I suspect a federal ban on carrying weapons at political events would rapidly be passed given our current congressional make up.

 

[thorazine]

At least he appeared to be nicely dressed.

 

[kilo729]

This thread really needs locked. Someone asks an outfitted mammal for verification and it turns into a stupid flamefest that brings nothing of value.

Of course this post doesn't help any, but I'm not sure how to flag an entire thread.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

By exercising his right to carry his rifle, within legal limitations, by getting on the news today he probably reminded several million people that they have a right to bear arms and no nearby kittens/young minorities were instantly vaporized in a hail of hollowpoint gunfire. I applaud him for doing what he did safely, responsibly, and without looking like a loon.

Ditto.

Its good he wasnt terminated by the Secret Service sniper who will do it with gusto. Dont be stupid, the President is ringed with the top guys whose job is to make sure he is safe and sound.

The rest of us must do that for ourselves.

I'm sure more than a few snipers had him in their scopes the entire time he was there. It's always been my understanding that the secret service doesn't smile upon people who carry guns in the presence of the president.

I'm sure they were more concerned with people carrying guns they couldn't see.

I don't think it was a publicity stunt in the sense that you mean it. I believe he was making a political statement by exercising his both his First and Second A. rights in a high-profile way. To condemn him the way I'm reading here then we may as well all give up and just go along with the program. If using our First and Second Amendment rights is as bad in this case as some of you are making it out to be, well, we may as well not have them anymore.

I see it as the more this becomes commonplace, the better.

I agree. But I question whether or not a Presidential event is the proper place to be doing that.

Quite the opposite. That's one more armed citizen who could come to the defense of the president or anyone else for that matter.

Responsible firearms usage should be showcased. E.g. target shooting, preferably with women and/or children involved. Good clean fun.

Not some guy with a scary-looking automatic rifle at a presidential event.

The guy wasn't using his semi-auto rifle or his pistol. He was simply keeping and bearing them. That is completely benign and innocuous.

Its not about protecting the President's life. It is about protecting the sanctity of the US political process. An assassin can subvert the will of the people.

Protecting the President has much more to do with preserving the Republic than protecting one man.

We've got that covered. We have a chain of succession.

Let's recall that there was little-to-no gun control prior to 1968. So who wants to take a swing at defending the notion that gun control has ANYTHING to do with Presidential security (or anything else in this thread), when more Presidents have been shot in the forty one years since 1968 than were shot in the preceding forty one years?

Excellent point. More gun control laws, less guns on the streets in law abiding hands. Less guns in the hands of law abiding citizens means criminals and assassins can ply their trade with more impunity.

He showed nothing bad happens JUST BECAUSE a gun was present. Pretty powerful IMHO.

Those of us who carry every day prove that every day.

In the end, this seems to come down to the same points as the last thread on this - do we encourage open carry for the purposes of making a political statement, or not?

Standing up for one's rights regardless of the venue does make a statement. If you consider it political, I'd have to say, "Yes, by all means!" As I've said before, we can join that wave of renewed interest in exercising and espousing our rights in the political arena now or be forced to join it on the battlefield later. I'm pleased with the apparent course on which this thread has been allowed to progress.

There is no need in the 21st century to be walking around with a gun on the hip, frightening other people. That's just a desire to "play cowboys": pathetic.

Back when the "cowboys" carried guns they weren't playing. No one is playing today, either.

There is a world of difference between blowing smoke in bystander's faces and Open Carry of a firearm. Let at least try to keep the arguments linear....

Good point. Blowing smoke in someone's face is quite offensive. The simple act of keeping and bearing an arm is completely benign and innocuous. Bailey Guns said it best:

Your gun doesn't pollute the air others have to breathe.

A better analogy would be if you were sitting on the bench with a closed pack of cigarettes - not smoking - and the other folks had a fit because you simply had the cigarettes.

That's the reaction we're talking about here.

It didn't look like the people in the crowd around him were concerned at all. That kind'a says it all!

Woody

There is a current wave of freedom being expressed in this great country of ours. We can join that wave in the political arena now or be forced to join it on the battlefield later.

 

[danez71]

The greatest threat to a free country is lack of self restraint.

Think about it

 

[jerkface11]

This is pathetic. Half of you are saying we shouldn't exercise our rights because if we do they might take them away. So what's the point in having them? What next will you be saying we shouldn't make signs saying we disagree with The Great Obama?

 

[SoCalShooter]

quote

"The government should be reminded peacefully from time to time that they aint the only ones who are armed."

I agree however there is the right time and place for it,I don't think healthcare is a topic that should be showing we are armed.There are those that don't agree with you on healthcare and they have the right to voice themselves without feeling threatened.Are you showing the government you are armed or are you showing the people who disagree with you that you are armed?

Granted but isnt EVERY single political event a TIME AND PLACE to voice your opinion and stand up for what you believe in.

 

[Eschaton]

There is no need in the 21st century to be walking around with a gun on the hip, frightening other people. That's just a desire to "play cowboys": pathetic.

But until I turn 21 and can carry concealed the only way I can carry a gun in my state is open on my hip. And I'd rather do that than no gun at all.

 

[lionking]

quoteAnother small oasis of sanity in this threads mainly anti 2A malignancy.
It it any wonder we've been fighting this uphill battle since at least 1934?
I'm glad we've got Bear,Sam,TR,scndactive,armoredman and some others here that still understand "shall not be infringed"means just that.
But overall,pitiful and appalling.

The 2nd amendment isn't the only right there is.But seems that is all some care about who are posting.Yes this is a gun board,but to say your way is the only way come onNow us that disagree with you are just not 2nd amendment enough for you?.Why go to a rally about health care to show off about the 2nd amendment,and that is what they did show off their AR15 at a rally about healthcare

Other people who care about other things besides a gun have the right to assemble as much as you do without feeling threatened and while you may not think they were threatened they might,and that is what matters.Those are the ones who will say yeah ban that gun I personally saw a wacko bring one to the rally.

They didn't think "oh look a guy with a gun,wow he isn't shooting anybody,he is being peaceful".They thought "wow look at that wacko with a gun,what is he trying to threaten me if I support health care?".

 

[SoCalShooter]

Originally Posted by Reid73
There is no need in the 21st century to be walking around with a gun on the hip, frightening other people. That's just a desire to "play cowboys": pathetic.

Whats pathetic is those who dont stand up and fight for their rights and what they believe when the system has failed miserably and does not give a rats pooty what your sign says that you hold above your head at a rally.

 

[2RCO]

This guy was simply practicing his 2A rights. The fact that THR members are all out of kilter because someone displayed a gun in a non violent manner as an act of protest floors me to no end. This guy wasn't menacing the President he was simply displaying his weapon in a perfectly legal manner.

Some of the comments on this board just go to show how fragmented we really are and why we will never win the 2A argument in such a state.

We need to wake up and smell the 2A coffee people either you have rights or you don't.

IMHO and in reality an automobile can be used as a deadly weapon..We don't have a fit every time someone drives a car within 500 yards of a political rally.

Reading this thread has proven that many really aren't 100% on board with the 2A but rather are lukewarm on the issue (the antis among us). Or RKBA Activists in Name Only.

From now on I will refer to the Lukewarms as RAINOs .

Thanks guys for singlehandedly weakening my beliefs that there were enough of us that cared to make a difference.

Oh and yes the President's safety is important but that is what Secret Service Sniper's are there for.

Raleigh

 

[lionking]

quoteGranted but isnt EVERY single political event a TIME AND PLACE to voice your opinion and stand up for what you believe in.

Then start a 2nd amendment rally.A rally that is on topic maybe.

 

[lionking]

quoteThis guy was simply practicing his 2A rights. The fact that THR members are all out of kilter because someone displayed a gun in a non violent manner as an act of protest floors me to no end. This guy wasn't menacing the President he was simply displaying his weapon in a perfectly legal manner.


We know he didn't threaten anybody,the point is others don't see it that way and the media will use that and spin it against us.People went to a rally about healthcare,and they saw people with guns who probably weren't in the pro health care reform side btw.

 

[2RCO]

Lionking I don't disagree with the fact the Media will spin it against us.

There is little we can do that they won't. What we should really do is flood comment pages with logical comments on why this action was NO BIG DEAL and perfectly legal.

I'm not saying that I would have done what this guy did but then again I have nothing against him doing it. I think the fact that the media is jumping all over this shows how little people really understand about what their rights really are. We need an Educational program about the real point of the Second Amendment and how it's not about hunting Bambi and Pheasants or Target Shooting but rather as a safeguard against tyranny.

With the expansion of Government and it's power we could in likelihood one day be at a point that other peoples throughout history have seen. A point in which peoples freedoms of Speech and Religion and Right to life could be infringed. This point is when the 2A becomes possibly the most important Right of all. The ability to protect oneself from tyranny.

For now we still (no matter how much you hate the current administration) live in a time where we have rights and still have the political process. As long as we keep the 2A in full force we should never need it.

Raleigh

 

[sohcgt2]

I for one am tired of seeing and hearing about people showing up at presidential events armed. I think it very disrespectful of the highest post in the land and possibly the world. All Americans have the right to free speach, but it seems that many need to learn to shut up from time to time. Having the right doesn't make it right.

 

[lionking]

spare me Johnny Dollar,stop and think outside the box for once about what others think.

Going to a health care rally to gain notice about being able to sling a AR-15 over your back is about as on topic as someone starting a thread on NASCAR on THR.

As the new restrictions roll in I'll think about Johnny Dollar who was the cause of it......

 

[Buddy Rabbit]

A better choice would have been with a "pro-gun" administration.

We (and that guy) ALL know that the current administration is anti-gun, and that the media is in his pocket. The media will crucify gun owners for that.

John Q. Public: - "WHAT !!! ? ? ? The current gun laws in AZ allow a gun-nut with a loaded pistol/rifle to come within spitting distance of the President ??? . . . Are you serious ???
I remember what happened to JFK !!!"

Christ. This is the last thing we need.

 

[2RCO]

All Americans have the right to free speach, but it seems that many need to learn to shut up from time to time. Having the right doesn't make it right.

Seriously? So we should shut up? The 2A isn't Right?

What the Heck am I living in an alternate Universe?

 

[jakemccoy]

rbernie,

I now see why you close this type of thread without letting it get too far.

-Jake

 

[lionking]

quoteLionking I don't disagree with the fact the Media will spin it against us.

There is little we can do that they won't. What we should really do is flood comment pages with logical comments on why this action was NO BIG DEAL and perfectly legal.

I'm not saying that I would have done what this guy did but then again I have nothing against him doing it. I think the fact that the media is jumping all over this shows how little people really understand about what their rights really are. We need an Educational program about the real point of the Second Amendment and how it's not about hunting Bambi and Pheasants or Target Shooting but rather as a safeguard against tyranny.

With the expansion of Government and it's power we could in likelihood one day be at a point that other peoples throughout history have seen. A point in which peoples freedoms of Speech and Religion and Right to life could be infringed. This point is when the 2A becomes possibly the most important Right of all. The ability to protect oneself from tyranny.

For now we still (no matter how much you hate the current administration) live in a time where we have no rights and still have the political process. As long as we keep the 2A in full force we should never need it.


.....................................................................


At my core I actually agree with people posting about what you said above,I'm disagreeing with the timing and tactics.Healthcare reform is a hot button topic with people passionate on both sides and nothing should dilute the issue,side tracking the issue about the 2nd amendment doesn't gain many allies.

People at a rally about healthcare and see the guy with a AR-15 have a good probability to think that he is armed to prevent healthcare being addressed,not there to champion the 2nd amendment.

 

[Buddy Rabbit]

NO.
You give an anti-gun President - THAT OWNS THE MEDIA - all the ammunition he needs.
Average Joe gets his news from CNN.
Average Joe gets his news from NYT.

To which side do you think his stunt will be portrayed by mainstream, nationally broadcast media ?

I hope to HELL that this guy has no kind of criminal record.

 

[mljdeckard]

This will ultimately be a victory. No arrest, no charges, this is a precedent that says open legal carry is not subject to harassment by federal officials simply because it might give them the willies.

This is conditioning the public to understand that bearing arms is not a crime.

 

[FiREhAwk]

toxic airplane air has killed more people than my AR15