manually de-cocking

[horge]

Hi otomik

As I'm sure you know...the Bersa Thunder 380's long anti-hammerbite rearward tang makes it more dangerous to uncock onehanded, with a triggerpull and a restraining thumb on the hammer. It's too easy to lose control of the hammer.

However, there are times I detest the loud CLACKK of the decocker as much as anyone. When I want to decock quietly, I do it while in two-handed grip. Strong-hand thumb flicking down the safety/decocker, while weak-hand thumb catches and slowly lowers the hammer. Some people do the two-handed same with non-decocker pistols, weakhand thumb controlling the hammer's descent --though it is demonstrably riskier.

 

[cracked butt]

When I have a 1911 as a bedside gun it's kept in condition 2. You can grab it and cock the hammer with just one hand.

So in a flurry of activity in the dark when you need to grab the pistol, you accidentally knock it off the night stand or drop it onto the floor and it lands on the hammer. Then what? I know there might not be enough force to set it off 99 times out of 100, but what if it does?

 

[Nightcrawler]

you accidentally knock it off the night stand or drop it onto the floor and it lands on the hammer. Then what?

In my case? Then nothing. Mine's a series 80.

 

[Majic]

Yep, it falls about 2 feet on a carpeted floor.

Just out of curiousity does anybody here keep their 1911 at condition zero and just rely on the grip safety like Browning intended?

JMB didn't design the pistol to have a grip safety. That was a feature the US military required of it and he had to add it.

 

[BluesBear]

you accidentally knock it off the night stand or drop it onto the floor and it lands on the hammer. Then what?

Then you have a dent in the floor.

As for firing? Absolutely nothing will happen. Dropping a condition 2 pistol without a firing pin lock, on it's MUZZLE is what can possibly cause it to fire. Usually a cocked & locked 1911 pattern pistol will not fire when muzzle dropped but I have found some that will.

I have never found any pistol with an inertia firing pin that will fire when dropped on it's hammer. If you have read some of my past posts you will see that I have tested this on several occasions.

 

[Chuck Dye]

Bob C,

Giving away our age, are we? I can just barely remember .22 short or long being cheaper than long rifle.

 

[BluesBear]

Or when Standard Velocity was heaper than Hi-Speed.

 

[Gary A]

A CZ-75 I used to have was meant to be de-cocked manually and gave instructions in the manual on how to do it. I have a late model Browining Hi-Power in which the manual gives specific instructions on safely lowering the hammer on a live round. As a matter of fact, this particular manual states it is the preferred way to carry the Hi-Power. I know other Hi-Power manuals written at different times say different things. I have an FN Hi-Power which recommends chamber-empty carry or cocked and locked if necessary. Sigs emphatically state the necessity of using the decocker, stating that manual decocking is unsafe on Sig pistols. I figure if a decocker exists, it should be used. If it doesn't, then lower the hammer manually in a safe and controlled manner, always pointing the muzzle in a safe direction in case something goes awry. We are responsible for every round that leaves the barrel of a firearm under our control. I have had one negligent discharge and I am glad I was pointing the firearm in a safe direction because my brain was apparently not at home that day but I was still responsible for that round.

 

[BluesBear]

Sigs emphatically state the necessity of using the decocker,

As well they should. The hamer is place in such an awkward position that trying to manually decock it is actually more difficult than the Broomhandle Mauser.

 

[Frohickey]

Doesn't make sense to manually decock single-action pistols, at least with a round in the chamber.

To put the gun back in the ready, you would need to recock the pistol. To do that, you can do it two ways, one is by cocking the hammer back. This is the high-dexterity way. The other way is to rack the slide and feed another round from the magazine. This is the low-dexterity way.

The low-dexterity way is the better way, since you lose dexterity in high stress situations. And if you are doing it the low-dexterity way, you are losing the use of the round in the chamber anyway, so just have an empty chamber, and pull the trigger to drop the hammer (or lower the hammer manually).

Better to have your muscles remember a few required actions, such as racking the slide, pulling the trigger when you have a good sight picture, removing the magazine, reseating a magazine, etc.

 

[Majic]

Doesn't make sense to manually decock single-action pistols, at least with a round in the chamber.

I guess it really doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't do it, but to those who do decock their single action pistols it makes a lot of sense. We all are diferent and have differing opinions.

How about this, we who do manually decock our pistols will dilligently try to not bother those who think we are doing something wrong or senseless.

 

[Frohickey]

Didn't mean that to be denigrating to anyone.

Its just that manually decocking the hammer on a live round on a single action pistol doesn't seem to accomplish a whole lot.

Is it because there is a desire to save spring set on the hammer spring?

Is it because there is a desire to be able to have a 'safe' firearm that can be put into firing mode with one hand? Couldn't this be accomplished with the manual safety instead, it would be much closer to the proper firing grip.

I'm sure that there are some double action pistols without an automatic decocker out there, but aren't those made with a manual safety?

I guess its whatever that floats your boat.

 

[Frohickey]

However, also being a revolver shooter, I'm comfortable with manually lowering hammers. If you shoot a SA/DA revolver, it's an absolutely necessary skill.

The hammer location of a SA/DA revolver is different than that of a SA auto-pistol.

 

[BluesBear]

The hammer location of a SA/DA revolver is different than that of a SA auto-pistol.

Really now?
Well, mine seems to be located on the back just below the rear sight.
Where's yours?

Or are you carrying one of these?

 

[Nightcrawler]

I'm sure that there are some double action pistols without an automatic decocker out there, but aren't those made with a manual safety?

I already said. Yes my CZ-97B has a manual safety. It's on the left side of the frame. I'm left handed. I cannot reach the safety while maintaining a firing grip. If I keep the pistol loaded, I chamber a round. Grasping the hammer firmly (with my opposite hand), I gently squeeze the trigger until the hammer starts to release (muzzle in a safe direction). Once I'm past the half-cock notch I release the trigger and lower the hammer the rest of the way. Alternatively, I can leave the hammer at half-cock for a shorter double-action trigger pull.

I do it exactly as it shows in the manual the pistol came with. It's exactly how I do it with revolvers, and similar to how I've done it with leverguns and my break-action 12 gauge.

I honestly don't understand why hammer-lowering is just so incomprehensible for some people. For decades it was considered normal to carry a M1911 style pistol in condition 2; perhaps unnecessary, but along that same vein all double-action automatics are "unnecessary", doulbe-action-only guns most of all. And yet here we are!

 

[Frohickey]

Well, mine seems to be located on the back just below the rear sight.

Compare a revolver to an auto-pistol and in the revolver, the hammer is more towards the front to facilitate cocking via the thumb. On an auto-pistol, its further to the rear, and you would have to stretch the thumb, and possibly break the grip of the ring/pinky finger on the pistol grip.

A good consistent grip and a good sight picture being what you want for accurate shots...

 

[BluesBear]

If you look (and handle) a 1911 pattern pistol, which by the way is the most common type of SA pistol, you can tell that is was designed with thumb cocking in mind.

John Browning designed it to be thumb cocked and uncocked.

I find is quite easy to access the hammer on a 1911 pattern pistol.
But then again I don't live in a Hollyweird movie and I also don't aim my weapon and then decide to cock it. But if you decide to do it that way it's still very easy, in fact it is the easiest way, to use your support hand thumb to cock it. Which is way many Cowboy Action Shooters do it with their revolvers.


Nightcrawler; - I agree with you I don't understand the big deal made by those who don't.

If decocking is stupid and usless they why don't those who feel that way just remove the spurs from their 1911 pattern hammers?


Majic; - I like your suggestion - "How about this, we who do manually decock our pistols will dilligently try to not bother those who think we are doing something wrong or senseless."

 

[Nightcrawler]

If decocking is stupid and usless they why don't those who feel that way just remove the spurs from their 1911 pattern hammers?

I once asked that, back on THR, I think. The without a hammer spur of any kind, you could skip the extended beavertail and have a pistol less likely to snag on clothing and such (like what Para Ordnance does on their compacts). Sounds reasonable on an all business working gun.

The answer I got was, basically, a 1911 looks dumb without a hammer. (True enough.) Someone mentioned, if I recall correctly, that the hammer was used in some manipulation drills, but unless you're cocking or decocking it manually, I can't imagine what.

I always thought that the hammer was serrated for a reason, though.

 

[M1911]

The manuals for my Sig P239s say in big red bold uppercase letters to always use the decocking lever when decocking and to never decock using the hammer. I figure that Sig probably knows something important about this, so I should follow their advice. Same is true for my HK USPs.

As for my M1911s, I decock them by pulling the trigger. I carry my M1911s cocked and locked. The only time I ever need to decock them is when they are empty, when it is safe to dry fire them. Decocking a 1911 on a full chamber? Why?

M1911

 

[riverdog]

I have had 1911's which it was recommended to hold back the hammer when dropping the slide stop to prevent hammer follow. The hammer was already cocked and holding the spur was meant to keep it that way.

When I learned to use a 1911 in the military in 1971 we never decocked the pistol, we used the thumb safety or we put the gun in Condition 3. Condition 2 is for DA/SA pistols not for SA Only 1911's, BHP, et al. Do what you want, good luck.

 

[Majic]

Condition 2 is for DA/SA pistols not for SA Only 1911's, BHP, et al.

Decades after the phrases "condition 1, condition 2, and condition 3" were coined on the 1911's readiness for use we now find out that "condition 2" doesn't apply to the pistol.

 

[Archie]

What's all the fuss?

Let's see,

1. 1911 carried cocked and locked. No point (to my mind) to lower the hammer on a live round. So I don't.

"How about this, we who do manually decock our pistols will dilligently try to not bother those who think we are doing something wrong or senseless."

Can I add, "We who do not manually decock our pistols will dilligently try to not bother those who think we ought to."


2. S&W double action revolvers. Having learned to shoot these implements in double action mode, I feel it an offense against God and S&W to shoot them single action. Since I don't cock them, I don't have to de-cock them.

3. H&K USP 40. I have the variant one... which is DA/SA with a cocked and locked over-ride. And a de-cocker. Since it only fits into the holster and snaps in with the hammer lowered, it has to be de-cocked. So I use the handy de-cocking lever that one of the H&K engineers spent so much time to design. But I still stick my off side thumb under the hammer to keep it from slapping down on the firing pin blocker doo-dad. I just don't like that metal on metal slamming.

4. Oh, I never de-cock my S&W DAO auto pistol either. Nice gun, but the slowest gun I own in rapid fire. I can shoot my single action revolvers faster in aimed fire. Go figure.

 

[BluesBear]

"We who do not manually decock our pistols will dilligently try to not bother those who think we ought to."

I just scrolled back and I don't see anywhere that any of us who do use Condition 2 ever said that anyone else "ought to". We merely stated that we do and that we'd prefer not to be called idiots for doing so.

 

[cratz2]

Well, I think this thread has gotten pretty far away from the original question... As long as the hammer never slips out from under your finger while you're manually decocking, it's safe... Also assuming that the gun is pointed in a safe direction during said manual decocking.

To the original poster, I can appreciate some folks wanting to have a single action pistol with the hammer down on a loaded chamber while all safety devices remain functional. (I don't understand it, but I appreciate it.) I think engineering a carry gun so that a safety device is permanently bypassed can only lead to bad things... Not the same thing as a pinned grip safety on a competition only 1911.

 

[M1911]

I guess it really doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't do it, but to those who do decock their single action pistols it makes a lot of sense. We all are diferent and have differing opinions.

I'm listening. Really, I am.

Why would you want to decock a 1911? Why would you want to put it in condition 2? What possible benefit does that give you that condition 1 does not? Condition 1 is just as safe (if not arguably safer to get into) and faster to put into action. So what does condition 2 give you that condition 1 does not?

I admit that I completely don't get it. So explain it to us unwashed masses.