Many agree that amsec/strudy are equal

[BIGGBAY90]

I have seen one sheets of paper ripped by a toddler but when you put four or five sheets TOGETHER it makes a different and cannot be ripPed----thats just to say every fraction OF STEEL counts

 

[Keizer]

thats just to say every fraction OF STEEL counts

Like Frank already mentioned, "If you want to get yourself out of the reach of hand tools, you need to be out of gauge steel sheet, and up into the 3/8" to 1/2" range of plate".

 

[heeler]

The seamless and cast two inch body of the Drylite material Amsec uses would help a lot more than fireboard or spongy insulator in helping the body bolster the attack.
And again getting through either of these two above mentioned gun safes would be eventually possible using a fire ax,but the length of time to make that a reality is very debateable.
It would not be easy.

 

[adirondack]

It could be the same batch of 6061-T6 but aerospace require 100% traceability so in reality, its just more paperwork in many (not all) cases.

We are required to hold all records for 50 years, that's all furnace surveys, heat treat and quench cycle records for every lot we produce. All instruments are traceable to NIST standards and calibrated yearly so there is a big difference between the metal we produce from a quality standpoint than what you find being produced in plants from China and other developing countries; same is true for steel.

Splitting hairs when your are talking the small thicknesses that we are discussing here.
Today 03:51 PM

Not necessarily, we are talking about stopping someone with a fire ax from getting into your gun safe.

Using your numbers, there is (0.1847-0.1345) / 0.1345 x 100% = 37.3% more steel on 7ga verses 10ga.

Also, since Sturdy is likely using a higher grade of steel than anyone else in this price range. It will take a lot more energy to get through their steel than another safe of similar thickness but a lower grade of steel.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Not too many people walk around with a big fire ax"s or hugh prybars---lets look at the simply ax or a basic crow bar(tire iron)---do any of you guys think that it can be open with just the basic tools( have any of you seen it or are you guesting) -------help

 

[Keizer]

37.3% more steel on 7ga verses 10ga.

Again, with the thin thicknesses we are discussing here, I'm not concerned with the % of extra steel. If we aren't talking thicker plate steel, then a fire ax is getting in period. To think it's not is fooling yourself.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Keizer----a1adbj said that the thickness is about the thickness of a novely sign----can you punch through one--nooooooooo----not even i, but every fraction of steEl counts

 

[heeler]

Biggbay,in regards to your question if it's possible to get into either of these with a small axe or crow bar my answer would be that it is not very likely and again if the safe was bolted down and placed so they could not get leverage with a handheld tool like a crow bar it is in my opinion that they would wear themselves completely out trying to.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I believe thats the case also

 

[Cesiumsponge]

We are required to hold all records for 50 years, that's all furnace surveys, heat treat and quench cycle records for every lot we produce. All instruments are traceable to NIST standards and calibrated yearly so there is a big difference between the metal we produce from a quality standpoint than what you find being produced in plants from China and other developing countries; same is true for steel.

That is very cool trivia. I did not know that you guys have to keep records for 50 years. About the only thing I know about aluminum production is the insane current required to run the electric arc furnaces. If I remember correctly, aluminum production plants are typically next to large bodies of water and require their own power plants to operate. We have to do ISO and AS stuff as well which includes all sorts of record-keeping, plus annual NIST traceable calibration of measurement tools. While it's a pain in the ass, I think it comes down to "cover your ass". I don't keep track of material logging but I think most of our aluminum is Alcoa. A majority of titanium we receive comes from Russia for aerospace work as they're still the largest global producer of titanium. Russia sounds iffy and the stock is usually in rough shape, but the stuff gets sent out for state-side chemical and mechanical analysis for certs and it all seems to pass.

 

[adirondack]

If I remember correctly, aluminum production plants are typically next to large bodies of water and require their own power plants to operate.

We (New York Power Authority) have a large hydro plant here on the St Lawrence river supplying us power. Our plants are less than 8 miles from the dam and we own our own power lines and transmission company to move the power. Of the 900MW+ they produce for the American side (the Canadians operate the other half) Alcoa consumes half of the power when both of our smelting plants are operational. We curtailed one of our plants due to the economy but we are in the works to restart it soon and "modernize" the plant within the next 5 years. The DC current flow through our main potline is huge 245,000 Amps and that is considered small by today's standard. The magnetic fields as you can imagine are equally huge; my record for stacking paperclips end to end while only holding on to one end is 38. Funny, a couple years ago we were trying to get a new power contract and there were a lot of people (some of those politicians) saying we should close our plants and ship the power south to the city (people say the funniest things). Well now that we have one plant down and when we have to shut off the other, all of a sudden everyone's attitude changes and we are getting called every 5 minutes asking how long we are going to be down and they start reducing output at Niagara to try to maintain grid stability.

 

[a1abdj]

Yea, but if a1adbj says that a firebroad can help a little, why not even a fraction of steel make a different

Every little bit helps, but it would take a lot of little bits to give you true brute force resistance.

 

[heeler]

Although off topic,this is very interesting.
Thanks and thanks for the link you provided Cesiumsponge.
That too was enlightening.

 

[adirondack]

Again, with the thin thicknesses we are discussing here, I'm not concerned with the % of extra steel. If we aren't talking thicker plate steel, then a fire ax is getting in period. To think it's not is fooling yourself.

I'm not worried about someone getting into my gun safe with a fire ax or a pry bar, that's why I bought it.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

If a lot of little bit is needed its still is better then none, i see the bf that you back-up so greatly use some sort of soft cement(i think not sure) but as you sAid ( it helps) and i agree

 

[a1abdj]

If a lot of little bit is needed its still is better then none, i see the bf that you back-up so greatly use some sort of soft cement

Interesting that your phrased it that way.

The fill that the AMSEC uses (they've actually used two) is hard enough that it's effective. The nice thing about it is that it's giving you fire and burglary protection at the same time.

At the end of the day, the BF is not a burglary rated safe either. When you see the Sturdy and BF brought up in these conversations, it's not because they are the best safes. They are just the best safes available in their price range.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Thats a good point, do you know how strong or tOUGH IS the fill in the bf use or compared to what type of material it is---i only said soft cement because i thought i hear someone refer to it as that or simular---is it as strong as the fireboard thAT most safe use

 

[Lee Roder]

the strength of concrete is rated in units of pressure, typically 2000-10000 psi for structural application. thermally insulating concretes (like AMSEC uses) are very low in density (due to their fillers including air). they have very little compressive strength and are not used where resistence to significant force is required.

 

[a1abdj]

the strength of concrete is rated in units of pressure, typically 2000-10000 psi for structural application. thermally insulating concretes (like AMSEC uses) are very low in density (due to their fillers including air). they have very little compressive strength and are not used where resistence to significant force is required.

What is the fill material that AMSEC is using rated at? Are you sure it is only for thermal insulation?

I need to find a photo of the new fill, but this was the material used in the first generation. As you can see there's not much air, and it is certainly not soft (although you probably wouldn't build a skyscraper out of it).

How can true burglary rated safes have "concrete" in the 30,000 psi range, yet still resist temperatures much higher than what gun safes are rated at, and for much longer times? They don't have any air in them, and have tremendous compressive strength.

There are many types of "concretes" used in many types of safes with multiple purposes. Some are designed for fire resistance, some are designed for burglary resistance, and some are designed for both.

Regardless of what's in the AMSEC, it's certainly harder than nothing, gypsum board, or ceramic wool, which are you only other options. It's also interesting to note what all of the other high end gun safe manufacturers are using in their safes. They could use whichever material they wanted, but both Graffunder and Brown use fills similar to the AMSEC.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Have you ever handle the material when it was outside/not filled inside a safe

 

[a1abdj]

Have you ever handle the material when it was outside/not filled inside a safe

I have cutaway samples similar to the one shown above. Aside from those samples, my only handling of the material is as it resides inside of the safes.

I can't find a photo of the new material anywhere online. I may have to pop a fill cover off of one of the safes and take a photo.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

How can true burglary rated safes have "concrete" in the 30,000 psi range, yet still resist temperatures much higher than what gun safes are rated at, and for much longer times?

I'd like to add that certain burglary safes may have a few hundred pounds of copper in the form of rods or plates in addition to steel and other metallic goodies embedded inside the "concrete" to achieve it's various desired properties. Copper is the most thermally conductive (non-exotic) material available. Despite that, they still have great fire numbers

 

[Keizer]

Keizer----a1adbj said that the thickness is about the thickness of a novely sign----can you punch through one--nooooooooo----not even i, but every fraction of steEl counts

Are you and I on the same page? I'm talking about using a fire ax, not punch through it with my fist. And the answer is YES, I can get through it with a fire ax.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I'm just trying to show that every bit of steel counts, if that was not the case then you or i would just buy 12ga/10ga and not worrie about the extra fraction of steel which all safe company use aS a sale plot. With the knowledge that you hAVE for safes, woulD you buy a 12ga/10ga safe......and why do a1adbj bf,sturdy,fort knotts etc. Pushes thicker steel and all have 12ga,10ga,8ga

 

[Keizer]

I'm just trying to show that every bit of steel counts,

And in the case of 6,7,8,9, 10 gauge steel ETC. every bit does count if you are trying to use a #2 pencil to try and poke a hole through it. But the pick end of a fire ax? It isn't going to matter with thin gauges like we are talking. Ok, I may have to swing harder with 7 gauge steel, or maybe swing twice compared to 10 gauge.

I think people know they can't afford a thick steel plate safe, so they then try and glorify this thin walled gauge steel as being something it isn't.