Many agree that amsec/strudy are equal

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I can only tell you what I have seen, and what I can find. I haven't seen any, and I can't find any. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but surely one would think that somebody that suffered a bad experience would mention it somewhere online.

You don't seriously think that an Amsec has never been attacked or broken?

 

[heeler]

Well BTN,I operate a very large commercial building that cost close to $18,000,000 to build two years ago and a one year warranty is all your getting from the general contractor.
Although I dont agree that if has not happened in a year it is not likely to happen but in most cases if it does happen after the one year you are SOL and have to pay to get it repaired.
So far this has included plumbing repairs,HVAC repairs(thousands there alone) a roof repair(they covered that one on good faith) concrete repairs,emergency ballast replacements,and the list just goes on and on.

 

[btn]

Well BTN,I operate a very large commercial building that cost close to $18,000,000 to build two years ago and a one year warranty is all your getting from the general contractor.
Although I dont agree that if has not happened in a year it is not likely to happen but in most cases if it does happen after the one year you are SOL and have to pay to get it repaired.

I agee with you completely. He said if it hasn't happened in the first year it's NOT going to happen.

The company I work for moved into a state of the art brand new building that cost $650,000,000 a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure there were one or two issues that the construction company had to fix more then a year after it was complete.

 

[btn]

Look at all the effort you make to disparage their safes, and you don't even own one. Surely somebody who suffered an actual loss would mention it somewhere.

Seems like the pot calling the kettle black once again. And I don't think that not believing that an Amsec has never been attacked or in a fire is desparaging their safes.

These discussions have been going on way before I started joining these threads. Once apon a time kaiser was much more objective. He even brought up that Graffunder uses CF wool in the doors of their safe as well as many of the positives of Sturdy.

Perhaps we can all figure out a way to move forward from the negative tone these threads take on. I'm open to any positive ideas.

 

[a1abdj]

I'm sure you do good work but I know many people, including myself, who would not agree with the above statement.

Can you give us a documented example of safe failure, due to a defect in manufacturing, that has occured after a safe was 1 year old?

 

[adirondack]

Can you give us a documented example of safe failure, due to a defect in manufacturing, that has occured after a safe was 1 year old?

a1abdj,

I recall you yourself saying on one of these threads that you had to work on two (or was it more?) AMSEC BF safes for customers due to mechanical failures, I don't think you had mentioned anything about how long the customers had the safes but it seemed to me the failures weren't covered by warranty. I recall the thread because it was another one where Alyssa had to correct you about incorrect information you stated about their company.

 

[Keizer]

Once apon a time kaiser was much more objective. He even brought up that Graffunder uses CF wool in the doors of their safe as well as many of the positives of Sturdy.

Weird, I have never even considered buying a Graffunder. And, the only thing I have ever said about a Sturdy safe that I didn't like was their home made appearance. I have never bad mouthed their security, any more than the AMSEC that I own.

Most of my comments were specifically centered around gauge steel, and its weaknesses.

I would trust a Sturdy with my guns as much as I do my AMSEC. It's when people start talking about false expectations that I usually comment. When I see someone trying to convince someone that something can do something it can't....I will usually comment.

 

[a1abdj]

I recall you yourself saying on one of these threads that you had to work on two (or was it more?) AMSEC BF safes for customers due to mechanical failures, I don't think you had mentioned anything about how long the customers had the safes but it seemed to me the failures weren't covered by warranty.

Since you recall it so clearly, I'm sure you wouldn't mind looking it up and quoting what I said.

It's important that you quote exactly what I said, otherwise, you're making things up. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time since I finally got you to admit you were fabricating numbers on your mathmatical comparison of insulations.

it was another one where Alyssa had to correct you about incorrect information you stated about their company.

You can keep repeating it, but it doesn't make it true. I could say the moon is a sphere, and Alyssa could come in and say it's a cube. That's not a correction.

 

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It's important that you quote exactly what I said, otherwise, you're making things up. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time ...

Frank, I think it's important for all of us to do this as well. Especially since the last quote of mine you cut and paste was about keisters construction guarantee.

Also are you still claiming that a break in attempt or a fire hasn't tested an Amsec because google hasn't turned up a pic?

 

[a1abdj]

Also are you still claiming that a break in attempt or a fire hasn't tested an Amsec because google hasn't turned up a pic?

I never made that claim. That's something you have invented in your own mind, and it seems to be a common theme. I type something, then you claim I said something other than what I typed.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I have read that ceramic is great for fire protection on a site that was not of sturdy---so maybe it is good, and a1adbj how do you know that it is not A GREAT USE for fire protection

 

[a1abdj]

a1adbj how do you know that it is not A GREAT USE for fire protection

Here's what I know.

I know that starting over 150 years ago, it was discovered that "cement" filled safes offered the best fire resistance compared to a number of other materials used at the time. Although the materials in the "cement" have changed over the years, that is still the most common material used.

Here in the US, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is the premier testing facility for all matters of products and materials. As far as safes go, they are the only rating agency (in the US) that insurance companies and government agencies accept as "proof" of the protection a safe offers. UL has some of the most severe testing, and tests for both fire resistance and burglary resistance of safes and vaults.

Of the hundreds of manufacturers, and the thousands of different models of safes they have built, nobody can point to one that has used ceramic insulation as its primary insulation. I have also expanded my search world wide, and posted this question on another forum where professional safe techs from around the world gather. Nobody there knew of any sort of rated safe that used ceramics as its primary insulation.

Some say that cost is a factor. That argument doesn't hold water as there are many safes selling well into the six figure range that still use "cement" fills. I can only assume that a safe built using ceramics will not meet the strict requirements of UL when it comes to fire resistance. Since we know that every other safe with a UL rating is "cement" filled, we know that the material works, and has worked for over 100 years.

I'm assuming the other site you visited was a gun safe manufacturer? That's really the only place you see safes insulated in this fashion.

I have a line of fire/burglary safes built similar to the Graffunders. They have a "cement" fille body and a steel plate door backed with ceramic. Of course the safes do not carry a UL fire rating.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Yep, you are right--i was reading about gun safes and they mention it, but have you handle a piece of that material

 

[a1abdj]

Yes. I have seen it in the safes I sell. I have also seen it used as a secondary insulation in data safes.

The material is not new, and it's not that expensive. I would venture to say that it's probably a better insulator than gypsum board, but until it passes UL testing, I would not say that it's a good material to be used for insulating safes.

You have to keep in mind that anything gun safe (manufacturers, dealers, etc..) is the "red headed stepchild" of the safe industry. They usually know little about safes, are fairly new to the industry, and tend to borrow more than they innovate. From a security stand point, I can't think of any innovation from the gun safe side of the business that doesn't involve paint or marketing.

When looking at what works and what doesn't work, you should look at how real safes are built. Then you can compare those designs to the gun safe you're looking at. If you look at gun safes first, you'll be fighting an uphill battle trying to find out what works and what doesn't.

 

[Keizer]

nobody can point to one that has used ceramic insulation as its primary insulation.

I'm thinking that some manufacturers that use a heavier gauge steel, are forced to use a ceramic material. Not because it's better, but instead to keep the weight of their safe in check with other manufacturers.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I don't know about that because i compared some bf & sturdy of almost the same dimension and the bf are heavier

 

[a1abdj]

I'm thinking that some manufacturers that use a heavier gauge steel, are forced to use a ceramic material. Not because it's better, but instead to keep the weight of their safe in check with other manufacturers.

Just thinking out loud.

This is always something manufacturers, especially gun safe manufacturers, must deal with. This is also why most manufacturers are using gauge steel and not plate steel. Since most gun safes are going into homes, weight is a concern. Some manufacturers also build safes knowing that the person buying it will be moving it themselves.

Filling safes with "cement" is a bit more complex than what it sounds like on the surface. Using gypsum board and ceramic insulations is pretty easy in comparison. You start combining costs, weights, and time involved, and it's pretty easy to see why so many gun safes are lined with gypsum board.

It has nothing to do with their customers having real fire protection, and everything to do with them being able to sell the most units at the lowest price with the lowest cost of production.

i compared some bf & sturdy of almost the same dimension and the bf are heavier

The BFs will be heavier due to their fill. The fill in the AMSEC is on the lighter side as far as fill materials are concerned. You could have a safe the same size using different types of material that could weigh in the 3,000 pound range.

 

[placid]

Since you recall it so clearly, I'm sure you wouldn't mind looking it up and quoting what I said.

Hey Adirondack, was this the quote you meant

Quote: (a1abdj)
I don't believe the answer to your question was correct, but I can speak from experience. My company provides warranty service throughout the St. Louis metropolitan area for many gun safe manufacturers, including AMSEC. Off the top of my head, I can recall four or five calls in the last few years that were linkage related, that were not a result of an attempted burglary.

Quote: (Sturdy Safe) That’s more linkage problems than we ever had in our whole history , but that’s besides the point. I was referring to all gun safes on the market who incorporate clutches and sheer pins in the design as being problematic in general. We feel that, safes with clutches and sheer pins in the lock design, have more problems than a safe without them. You can read about it here at sturdy safe.com/minuteman.htm under the girl pictured trying to open a safe. Amsec really does warranty the linkage for only a year thou.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=488614

Of the hundreds of manufacturers, and the thousands of different models of safes they have built, nobody can point to one that has used ceramic insulation as its primary insulation. I have also expanded my search world wide, and posted this question on another forum where professional safe techs from around the world gather. Nobody there knew of any sort of rated safe that used ceramics as its primary insulation.

But a1abdj, what about the most stringent U.L. fire rating of them all and there is no tougher U.L. fire rating out there it's U.L. 125 That, as I'm sure you know, is keeping the temperature below 125 degrees F plus also keeping the humidity below 80% as would be needed for sensitive computer media storage devices such as hard drives. That application uses exclusively ceramic fiber insulation and it can do it for four hours and up to 2000 degs F which no safe can do. Gee I'd think that ceramic wool stuff is pretty good if it can do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe

Room-sized fireproof vaults

For larger volumes of heat-sensitive materials, a modular room-sized vault is much more economical than purchasing and storing many fire rated safes. Typically these room-sized vaults are utilized by corporations, government agencies and off-site storage service firms. Fireproof vaults are rated up to Class 125-4 Hour for large data storage applications. These vaults utilize ceramic fiber, a high temperature industrial insulating material, as the core of their modular panel system. All components of the vault, not just the walls and roof panels, must be Class 125 rated to achieve that overall rating for the vault. This includes the door assembly (a double door is needed since there is no single Class 125 vault door available), cable penetrations, coolant line penetrations (for split HVAC systems), and air duct penetrations.

There are also Class 150 applications (such as microfilm) and Class 350 vaults for protecting valuable paper documents. Like the data-rated (Class 125) structures, these vault systems employ ceramic fiber insulation and components rated to meet or exceed the required level of protection.

In recent years room-sized Class 125 vaults have been installed to protect entire data centers. As data storage technologies migrate from tape-based storage methods to hard drives, this trend is likely to continue.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Drylight offer protection, cement offer protection-----what is drylight---IS IT MIXED WITH RUBBER/CEMENT/GLASS

 

[a1abdj]

Hey look! Another member who's joined the forum just to argue with me. Where do these guys come from?

Placid,

I'm sure you think you're being clever, but I'll go ahead and address your issues anyway.

You were kind enough to quote me. Now please point out where in that quote I said what Adirondack claimed I said.

He said:

I recall you yourself saying on one of these threads that you had to work on two (or was it more?) AMSEC BF safes for customers due to mechanical failures, I don't think you had mentioned anything about how long the customers had the safes but it seemed to me the failures weren't covered by warranty.

I said:

My company provides warranty service throughout the St. Louis metropolitan area for many gun safe manufacturers, including AMSEC. Off the top of my head, I can recall four or five calls in the last few years that were linkage related, that were not a result of an attempted burglary.

You will notice that no mention was made of repair work done to any BF safe, or any AMSEC safe for that matter. I know you guys are so excited at the belief that you may "catch me" that sometimes you jump the gun, or even just make stuff up. This is yet another example some of you thinking I mean something other than the very clear English I am typing.

But a1abdj, what about the most stringent U.L. fire rating of them all and there is no tougher U.L. fire rating out there it's U.L. 125 That, as I'm sure you know, is keeping the temperature below 125 degrees F plus also keeping the humidity below 80% as would be needed for sensitive computer media storage devices such as hard drives. That application uses exclusively ceramic fiber insulation and it can do it for four hours and up to 2000 degs F which no safe can do. Gee I'd think that ceramic wool stuff is pretty good if it can do that.

You're wrong.

Data safes are essentially a box inside of a box. The outer box is "cement" filled, and the inner box is ceramic. The outer box is exposed to those high temperatures, and must maintain an interior temperature of 350 degrees. The outer box is usually the exact same as a typical document safe.

The inner box would only be exposed to 350 degree heat, then keep its interior at or below 125 degrees. Since the "cement" in the outer safe can release moisture during a fire, the inner box is usually closed using a pressure system which forces the door against a gasket, thus sealing out the moisture.

By the way, wikipedia is the last place you should be looking if you're going to debate somebody who really knows what they're talking about. Afterall, we're talking safes, and the article you quoted is talking about fire rated rooms. Due to the air volume in each, you're really comparing apples and oranges.

I'm assuming a photo may be easier to understand than all of the confusing things I type, so here's an example:



I was even able to come up with a photo that shows the inside of the main door of a data safe. For security reasons I will not say who makes it, and have cropped it down just to show what I had spoken about above.

If you look closely, you will see "cement", not "ceramic wool".

Drylight offer protection, cement offer protection-----what is drylight---IS IT MIXED WITH RUBBER/CEMENT/GLASS

When I use the word "cement", I am talking about any fill material that starts out in mostly liquid form, and cures (partially or fully). Different manufacturers use different mixtures. They don't usually say exactly what their mix is.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

PLACID---I don't understand, if you get sick you goto the doctor----if you got an headache you take an aspirin---if you get lock out of your safe you call a technician---who here is a tech/builder/repairer/welder of safes----who,who

 

[a1abdj]

I don't understand, if you get sick you goto the doctor----if you got an headache you take an aspirin---if you get lock out of your safe you call a technician---who here is a tech/builder/repairer/welder of safes----who,who

I believe this question has been answered a few times.

I myself am all of the above. CB900F is also a safe tech, although unlike me, he's smart enough to stay away from these threads

Sturdy and Brown are two manufacturers that are members here who pop in on rare occasion.

Most of the people posting in this thread have their opinions, and experience with the safes they own, but very limited first hand knowledge beyond that.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Thats what i was thinking -----
ALSO YOU SAID THEY USUALLY DON'T TELL WHAT THEY MIXTURE IS SO HOW CAN YOU BACK THEY PRODUCT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MIX THAT IS USED IN THE SAFES

 

[a1abdj]

I can tell you that Amsec has safes, with UL fire ratings, that use the same material

 

[BIGGBAY90]

But how can you say that it is better the ceramic material, do you know of any facts