Marines open up competition to non-1911

[Bart Noir]

Just read article in Armed Forces Journal. The US Marines want to replace the 1911's that they keep rebuilding and their Recon / Spec Ops sorta guys keep wearing out. And now they are opening up the competition to non-1911 .45 ACP designs. Sorta doubt .45 GAP will be the winner, but maybe the US will buy Glocks someday after all. 'Natch there will be entries from H&K, S&W, Glock, Walther, and who knows else. Maybe the CZ .45, or Ruger. Should be interesting.

Bart Noir

 

[Ala Dan]

Bet'cha SIG-SAUER/SIGARMS will be there with
the world class P220A!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[dsk]

I suspect this is still the same news we've already heard a few months back. The Marines prefer a 1911, but are not going to rule out another design if it can prove better for their needs.

 

[Tamara]

Ala Dan,

Bet'cha SIG-SAUER/SIGARMS will be there with
the world class P220A!

Doubtful, my friend; they didn't spend all that money on the GSR program just to have a pretty toy to show off at SHOT.

 

[Boats]

Unless the Glock suddenly grows a hammer. it will never be accepted by the Militree here.

 

[liliysdad]

I am willing to bet that Sig will field the 220 and the 1911..double the chances to win, be dumb not to. HK and Smith will be there, again, Smith with two entires, more than likely, and possibly HK with two, if the 1911 rumor comes to fruition.

I am a diehard 1911 fan, but I feel the 220 would be the very best choice in a military sidearm.

 

[Sean Smith]

But the Marine competition isn't for a generic military sidearm. It is a weapon for the recon folks in MEUSOC. Different needs and application.

The odds that the winner won't be a 1911 are pretty small. Their preference for the 1911 pattern is pretty clear-cut.

 

[rauchman]

Greetings,

It would not surprise me at all to see the HK USP to at least place in the top 2 or 3. I have seen pictures on CNN of some sort of Spec Ops looking soldiers in Iraq with these on there hips. I had read somewhere that Delta uses these as well as 1911's. However, I have learned to take these inside clippings with a grain of salt. All that being said, I think the USP would be perfect.

 

[BigG]

GSR - that's the one with the excrescence on the dust cover? Like the Germans say, "wunderbar."

 

[Ivy Mike]

They already have the Mk.23 Mod 0 pistol. What else could be required?
Better ammo capacity that weighs about the same as a 1911. More accesories so the pistol can be tailored to suit the mission. Um, SOCOM already adopted this pistol, why do the Marines have to be different by using an inferior, outdated design?

 

[Sean Smith]

They already have the Mk.23 Mod 0 pistol. What else could be required?
Better ammo capacity that weighs about the same as a 1911. More accesories so the pistol can be tailored to suit the mission. Um, SOCOM already adopted this pistol, why do the Marines have to be different by using an inferior, outdated design?

Well, I suspect that the Marines understand their requirements better than you do. And apparently their experience with the MEUSOC 1911s they built hasn't led them to belive that the 1911 is an "inferior, outdated design." Hence a requirement for a new pistols that looks an awfully lot like... a 1911.

As for the Mark 23 Mod 0 USSOCOM that HK came up with, even HKPro.com admits that the thing has been less than a hit with SOCOM, in part because it is freakin' HUGE.

 

[Ivy Mike]

or perhaps there are still old school generals in power who started with the 1911 and still think anything else is crap. Kinda like the guys who think the 5.56 NATO has no "knock-down" power and we should go back to 7.62NATO. On the other hand, I have held a Mark23 (the civie version) and it is huge.

 

[fix]

It would not surprise me at all to see the HK USP to at least place in the top 2 or 3.

Actually, it would shock me to the point of dizzyness. For a design to win, it's going to have to be very close to the 1911 ergonomically. Furthermore, the USMC has already tasted the HK kool-aid and chose not to drink any more.

 

[fix]

They already have the Mk.23 Mod 0 pistol. What else could be required? Better ammo capacity that weighs about the same as a 1911. More accesories so the pistol can be tailored to suit the mission. Um, SOCOM already adopted this pistol, why do the Marines have to be different by using an inferior, outdated design?

SOCOM may have bought them, but adopted is quite a stretch.

 

[George Hill]

I think this means that they want a higher capacity as such as given by the double stack 1911 guns like the Wilson KZ45, Kimber and Springfield and STI high caps.

 

[sundance43.5]

fix

How could it shock you to the point of dizziness? The HK is more similar to a 1911 than any other semi-auto I can think of.

Chris

 

[fix]

Refer to kool-aid comment.

 

[Sean Smith]

I think this means that they want a higher capacity as such as given by the double stack 1911 guns like the Wilson KZ45, Kimber and Springfield and STI high caps.

Maybe. But I don't think they will find the 1911-derived double stack guns in .45 to be as consistently reliable as the single-stacks. FBI HRT sure didn't.

 

[Spark]

They are probably looking for something that isn't going to require as many man hours as the 1911 design for similar performance. Of course, I'm just talking out of my fourth point of contact and am completely guessing; I'd like to hear from the "insiders" who frequent the forums as to what's actually up. It's a lot more enlightening.

 

[fix]

I'd like to hear from the "insiders" who frequent the forums as to what's actually up. It's a lot more enlightening.

The last time one of the "insiders" saw fit to enlighten some of our members, he was treated rather rudely (leading to eventual thread lock) and has not returned since.

 

[Sean Smith]

or perhaps there are still old school generals in power who started with the 1911 and still think anything else is crap.

Considering that the spec is heavily influenced by the desires of the operators in this case (not often the case with military firearms), I doubt it.

 

[Bobarino]

i hope the USP wins. but if they're stuck on the 1911 design, why not a double stack Para? perhaps with the LDA? that would be a pretty good compromise.

Bobby

 

[orangeninja]

Whatcha wanna bet they'll just wind up with the Army's old Beretta's? That's usually how the Marines get their stuff. The Dept. of the Navy just doesn't like to spend money on those boys.

 

[Kodiak AK]

Didn't some Marine units already get Glock 21's?

 

[Bart Noir]

The Marines had M-16A2 before the Army, didn't they? And the M-240 machine gun. Maybe they don't always get leftovers and unwanted equipment. Then again, they are still flying the Sea Knight, last built during the Vietnam War.

I'm not sure of what the specs are for this new pistol. Thought they tested the best 1911's and found they weren't good enough, so opened it up to other designs. Hmmm, Beretta makes a .45 in the Cougar model.

Bart Noir