Tamara
Senior Member
Well, now we've heard from the Rainbow Six crowd... 
Marines open up competition to non-1911
- Thread starter Bart Noir
- Start date
- Status
VaughnT
Member
One thing you folks aren't considering is how easy a 1911 can be disassembled in the field. Even the lowliest grunt can take a 1911 down to the last nut and bolt without anything more than a cartoon for explanation. Glocks, HKs, Sigs, Rugers, and even my cherished HiPower, all have tiny springs and pins and parts that would be hard to remove without a properly sized punch or tweezers. That is not something I look for in a serious combat pistol. You might never need to breakdown your pistol in the bush, but having that ability sure is comforting.
I would also note that it is particularly appropo that the last vestige of the American warrior, the USMC, should seek an updated design of the 1911 instead of going with something based on political motivations. Add a light rail to the dust cover and you have a weapon of significant caliber that is easily handled by most anyone; can be outfitted for night/lolight operations; and can be serviced under less-than-optimal conditions. What more can you ask of a service pistol?
I would also note that it is particularly appropo that the last vestige of the American warrior, the USMC, should seek an updated design of the 1911 instead of going with something based on political motivations. Add a light rail to the dust cover and you have a weapon of significant caliber that is easily handled by most anyone; can be outfitted for night/lolight operations; and can be serviced under less-than-optimal conditions. What more can you ask of a service pistol?
The simple answer is that POLITICS have reared their ugly head..again.
The guys pulling the triggers want a 1911
They don't want double stacks, 9mm, and definitely not the crew served sidearm (mk23)
But...someone in the chain if command wants to be fair to those suppliers that can't actually meet the requirements as written (they don't make a 1911)
Probably so he/she/they can get a job with H&K when they retire (IMHO)
But far be it from me to throw a wet blanket on the rampant conjecture..
GO ahead.....surmise away...facts are for sissies
(Tamara..."Rainbow Six Crowd" ROFLMAO)
The guys pulling the triggers want a 1911
They don't want double stacks, 9mm, and definitely not the crew served sidearm (mk23)
But...someone in the chain if command wants to be fair to those suppliers that can't actually meet the requirements as written (they don't make a 1911)
Probably so he/she/they can get a job with H&K when they retire (IMHO)
But far be it from me to throw a wet blanket on the rampant conjecture..
GO ahead.....surmise away...facts are for sissies
(Tamara..."Rainbow Six Crowd" ROFLMAO)
Grunt
Member
Yes but what you're forgetting is that it's a big no-no to take apart any weapon as far as you describe it. Don't think I'd really want to wind up in the brig for taking the grip safety out for cleaning! Only armorers are allowed to do that so it's not going to matter what they go with, 1911, Glock, Beretta, HK, Ruger, etc. how easy they are to detail strip by any grunt in the field isn't even going to come into consideration.
Only armorers are allowed to do that so it's not going to matter what they go with, 1911, Glock, Beretta, HK, Ruger, etc. how easy they are to detail strip by any grunt in the field isn't even going to come into consideration.1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Interesting Cut and Paste
Pistol, Caliber .45 MEU (SOC) (NSN100S-O1-370-7353)
While the standard USMC pistol is the M9, those in the operational platoons use the MEU (SOC) pistol. Based on a modified M1911 pistol, the MEU (SOC) has been in the Marine Corps since the Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) {MEU (SOC)} stoodupin 1985.8
The proven single action design in .45 caliber, and modified by the
Precision Weapons Shop (PWS) at Quantico, is an excellent secondary weapon for the Marines in the Company.
The frame is stripped GI, and after inspection the feed ramp is polished.
The slide is Springfield Armory or Caspian, the barrel Bar-Sto, and the
internal parts all commercial. A high visibility rear sight, (manufactured
in house at PWS) and high visibility front sight are added. The pistol has
an ambidextrous thumb safety, and a flat mainspring housing with a lanyard loop. The entire pistol is de-horned and Pachmayer stocks fitted. There is none of the checkering (so favored by artistes) on this pistol.
The Videcki trigger is adjusted to a pull of 3.5-5 pounds.
The pistol is issued with seven Wilson-Rogers magazines. A Sure Fire H1OR
Light Module is mounted, but PWS feels that as this is not a fitted item, it
may be causing barrel link breakage. The operators rightfully feel that they
must have a light on the pistol, so this housing will remain until a better
solution is in place.
During the course of a workup/ deployment, the operator will put a lot of
rounds through his pistol. It is not uncommon for the pistols to come back
with 80,000+ rounds fired. The pistol will be returned to the PWS at
Quantico for a rebuild. Generally, all parts save the frame (which is a U.S.
Government frame last manufactured in 1945) are discarded. The frame is
inspected, and if within specs, rebuilt again. There are some frames that
may have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired from them.
The OIC of the Precision Weapons Shop, CWO5 Ken Davis, is convinced (as are many others) that the 1911 is the only pistol that can stand up to this use. We certainly have the right gun for the right job.
If there is one thing wrong with this pistol it is the fact that there are
not enough of them. Realistically, each operator should have two. One for
training and another to go to war (of course, the same could be said for all
of their weapons).
A product improved MEU (SOC) pistol is in the works. (The USSOCOM Mk23 ModO was briefly looked at. However the large size of this gun and other issues render it less than desirable as a secondary weapon). Though the basic pistol will remain the same, a new barrel and hardened drop in parts will replace those that must be hand fitted. This will permit maintenance to be performed at the company level rather than being evacuated.
Forward slide serrations and a memory bump grip safety will be added. The
PWS is currently looking at a new light for the pistol. All of the new guns
will have a MilStdl9l3 rail welded to the dust cover. Several new lights and
Laser Aiming Modules (LAMS) are being evaluated at this time.
Originally, the Company used leather holsters from PWL but leather and water are a lot like oil and water. They now use Safariland Models 3004, 3005, or the newer 6004. Each operator has two of these Kydex holsters, one for the MEU (SOC) Pistol with the light, and one without. The pistol magazine pouches are the Eagle DMP-FB.
The Gem-Tech lanyard replaced the field expedient telephone cords previously used. This purpose built pistol lanyard has one thing that others don't-it has a break-away feature.
Shortly after they were issued, the CH 46E carrying 5th Pit. crashed into
the sea off Pt. Loma, CA. The pistol carried by SSgt Mark Schmidt was
dislodged from his holster, and caught on something in the rapidly sinking
helo. The breakaway feature broke, and he was the last man to escape from the bird.
There are 60 MEU (SOC) pistols in the Company. They are authorized 110. They should have 300.
And, no. The Marines were still using the M-14 in Vietnam as late as mid-1968.
Just FYI,
Tuner
Pistol, Caliber .45 MEU (SOC) (NSN100S-O1-370-7353)
While the standard USMC pistol is the M9, those in the operational platoons use the MEU (SOC) pistol. Based on a modified M1911 pistol, the MEU (SOC) has been in the Marine Corps since the Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) {MEU (SOC)} stoodupin 1985.8
The proven single action design in .45 caliber, and modified by the
Precision Weapons Shop (PWS) at Quantico, is an excellent secondary weapon for the Marines in the Company.
The frame is stripped GI, and after inspection the feed ramp is polished.
The slide is Springfield Armory or Caspian, the barrel Bar-Sto, and the
internal parts all commercial. A high visibility rear sight, (manufactured
in house at PWS) and high visibility front sight are added. The pistol has
an ambidextrous thumb safety, and a flat mainspring housing with a lanyard loop. The entire pistol is de-horned and Pachmayer stocks fitted. There is none of the checkering (so favored by artistes) on this pistol.
The Videcki trigger is adjusted to a pull of 3.5-5 pounds.
The pistol is issued with seven Wilson-Rogers magazines. A Sure Fire H1OR
Light Module is mounted, but PWS feels that as this is not a fitted item, it
may be causing barrel link breakage. The operators rightfully feel that they
must have a light on the pistol, so this housing will remain until a better
solution is in place.
During the course of a workup/ deployment, the operator will put a lot of
rounds through his pistol. It is not uncommon for the pistols to come back
with 80,000+ rounds fired. The pistol will be returned to the PWS at
Quantico for a rebuild. Generally, all parts save the frame (which is a U.S.
Government frame last manufactured in 1945) are discarded. The frame is
inspected, and if within specs, rebuilt again. There are some frames that
may have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired from them.
The OIC of the Precision Weapons Shop, CWO5 Ken Davis, is convinced (as are many others) that the 1911 is the only pistol that can stand up to this use. We certainly have the right gun for the right job.
If there is one thing wrong with this pistol it is the fact that there are
not enough of them. Realistically, each operator should have two. One for
training and another to go to war (of course, the same could be said for all
of their weapons).
A product improved MEU (SOC) pistol is in the works. (The USSOCOM Mk23 ModO was briefly looked at. However the large size of this gun and other issues render it less than desirable as a secondary weapon). Though the basic pistol will remain the same, a new barrel and hardened drop in parts will replace those that must be hand fitted. This will permit maintenance to be performed at the company level rather than being evacuated.
Forward slide serrations and a memory bump grip safety will be added. The
PWS is currently looking at a new light for the pistol. All of the new guns
will have a MilStdl9l3 rail welded to the dust cover. Several new lights and
Laser Aiming Modules (LAMS) are being evaluated at this time.
Originally, the Company used leather holsters from PWL but leather and water are a lot like oil and water. They now use Safariland Models 3004, 3005, or the newer 6004. Each operator has two of these Kydex holsters, one for the MEU (SOC) Pistol with the light, and one without. The pistol magazine pouches are the Eagle DMP-FB.
The Gem-Tech lanyard replaced the field expedient telephone cords previously used. This purpose built pistol lanyard has one thing that others don't-it has a break-away feature.
Shortly after they were issued, the CH 46E carrying 5th Pit. crashed into
the sea off Pt. Loma, CA. The pistol carried by SSgt Mark Schmidt was
dislodged from his holster, and caught on something in the rapidly sinking
helo. The breakaway feature broke, and he was the last man to escape from the bird.
There are 60 MEU (SOC) pistols in the Company. They are authorized 110. They should have 300.
And, no. The Marines were still using the M-14 in Vietnam as late as mid-1968.
Just FYI,
Tuner
Sox
Member
I remember seeing on the HKPRO website a while back a response to a question about the fate of the USP once the P2000 arrives. The response quoted an HK armorer as saying the USP will continue on, but with adjustable backstrap, thinner slide and single stack in design? Perhaps that is HK's answer? The HK UCP resembles that comment, only it is supposedly in the caliber 4.8x30. I do find it interesting that nothing has been mentioned of a P2000 in .45. It will be interesting to say the least. I for one would welcome a singlestack USP and particularly in .45. Just conjecture, however if one "reads between the lines."
Ivy Mike
Member
Got a dumb question. Has our military (any branch) considered anything other than .45 or 9mm as a pistol caliber. With the limited distances these things are capable of firing over (compared to rifles) .40S&W seems like an almost ideal choice. Over ten years of proven reliability and power. Bigger hole than the 9mm with more power. Just curious...
Nahhh, I think he got tired of the Rainbow Six crowd asking why the Marine MEU(SOC) use 1911 pistols instead of the Rainbow Six choice of brand X pistol.
I will never understand how Armchair Commandos always think their advice is worth more then the actual Trigger Pullers
tac1911shooter
Member
Just a Thought
I have exchanged questions with Patrick Rogers over another board (tacticalforums.com). His response to the MEUSOC craze is as such:
Concerning the original order:
"The RFI, issued several months ago, opened up the possibility that other than 1911 type pistols would be allowed to compete.
As of now, no RFP has been issued, so there is no "testing", "trials" etc ongoing. The user community is steadfast in wanting only 1911's."
"As there is a war on, and the need for these pistols is reaching critical mass, there are several roads that can be taken to ensure that the need is met."
Concerning the SIG 220 as an option:
"It would not be viable for a number of reasons- it is DA, it is large, bulky and the durability is in question."
Concerning the MEUSOC craze in the public media:
"Some magazine authors base their articles on written documents, add a tint of conjecture, and sometimes some interviews with those who do or do not know. The users want the 1911. SYSCOM opened it up to others for their reasons. They may not be happy about that now."
"The facts are that we are at war. The 1911 is what is wanted and meets the user requirements. The changes requested in 1999 would have solved the problems, but didn't because of other issues. In the meantime, the Kimber is doing well, and meets the requirements."
"I too am amazed by the amount of concern re the MEU (SOC) too.
I am more amazed by the amount of garbage on the various forums about it, the Kimber and related subjects."
"I perused two threads on two different forums. Aside from a few steady hands, easily 99% of the comments were false, conjecture, or absloute nonsense. How did so many people- who have never actually seen the gun, never mind fired one- develop so much expertise about it, the doctrine behind its use, and the quality of the people who use it???"
Now for my thoughts,
1. Do your homework on the subject.
2. Pat KNOWS about this subject.
3. Who cares what pistol the govt or public wants for the Force/DET 1 operators; THEY WANT THE 1911 pistol.
My two cents.
Also Pat, if you hit the board. Please contribute.
TAC
I have exchanged questions with Patrick Rogers over another board (tacticalforums.com). His response to the MEUSOC craze is as such:
Concerning the original order:
"The RFI, issued several months ago, opened up the possibility that other than 1911 type pistols would be allowed to compete.
As of now, no RFP has been issued, so there is no "testing", "trials" etc ongoing. The user community is steadfast in wanting only 1911's."
"As there is a war on, and the need for these pistols is reaching critical mass, there are several roads that can be taken to ensure that the need is met."
Concerning the SIG 220 as an option:
"It would not be viable for a number of reasons- it is DA, it is large, bulky and the durability is in question."
Concerning the MEUSOC craze in the public media:
"Some magazine authors base their articles on written documents, add a tint of conjecture, and sometimes some interviews with those who do or do not know. The users want the 1911. SYSCOM opened it up to others for their reasons. They may not be happy about that now."
"The facts are that we are at war. The 1911 is what is wanted and meets the user requirements. The changes requested in 1999 would have solved the problems, but didn't because of other issues. In the meantime, the Kimber is doing well, and meets the requirements."
"I too am amazed by the amount of concern re the MEU (SOC) too.
I am more amazed by the amount of garbage on the various forums about it, the Kimber and related subjects."
"I perused two threads on two different forums. Aside from a few steady hands, easily 99% of the comments were false, conjecture, or absloute nonsense. How did so many people- who have never actually seen the gun, never mind fired one- develop so much expertise about it, the doctrine behind its use, and the quality of the people who use it???"
Now for my thoughts,
1. Do your homework on the subject.
2. Pat KNOWS about this subject.
3. Who cares what pistol the govt or public wants for the Force/DET 1 operators; THEY WANT THE 1911 pistol.
My two cents.
Also Pat, if you hit the board. Please contribute.
TAC
bradvanhorn
Member
o.k., I now freely display my ignorance for all to see... who is Patrick Rogers and why is he so credible?
"We now consecrate the bond of obedience... assume the position."
"We now consecrate the bond of obedience... assume the position."
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
The short answer is, he's personally involved in the procurement process for the firearms in question.
bradvanhorn
Member
Sean, not to be rude, but that is still somewhat vague; can you elaborate? Being in the Corps myself, and having several close friends at Det 1, my curiosity is duly aroused. If you'd prefer not to respond here, could you please email. Thanks.
tac1911shooter
Member
Who is Patrick Rogers?
Brad,
Pat is a veteran operator and instructor, among a few elite individuals who have served in three capacities of conflict...as a 30 year veteran of the USMC with whom he served in Southeast Asia in the mid-60's, the second being a 21 year veteran of NYPD, and third as an operator on a non-Department of Defense Govt. Agency involved in counterterrorism and intelligence. Essentially, he has worn all three uniforms, green, blue, and black. He currently instructs several US Military assets, Federal agencies, and private contracts as well as being a Senior range master at Gunsite Academy and the proprietor of EAG Enterprises, a small arms and tactical consulting firm which contracts primarily to the DOD and the law enforcement community. A competitive high power shooter, Pat is also a staff columist for SWAT Magazine and The Accurate Rifle (formely Tactical Shooter).
Note this was from the The Gun Zone web page.
This is the article:
http://www.thegunzone.com/m40a3.html#top
My note: Pat is fully involved with Force and DET 1 to my knowledge.
Thought this would help!
Tac
Edit Techbrute you beat me to it. Second that, check http://www.tacticalforums.com[url]
Brad,
Pat is a veteran operator and instructor, among a few elite individuals who have served in three capacities of conflict...as a 30 year veteran of the USMC with whom he served in Southeast Asia in the mid-60's, the second being a 21 year veteran of NYPD, and third as an operator on a non-Department of Defense Govt. Agency involved in counterterrorism and intelligence. Essentially, he has worn all three uniforms, green, blue, and black. He currently instructs several US Military assets, Federal agencies, and private contracts as well as being a Senior range master at Gunsite Academy and the proprietor of EAG Enterprises, a small arms and tactical consulting firm which contracts primarily to the DOD and the law enforcement community. A competitive high power shooter, Pat is also a staff columist for SWAT Magazine and The Accurate Rifle (formely Tactical Shooter).
Note this was from the The Gun Zone web page.
This is the article:
http://www.thegunzone.com/m40a3.html#top
My note: Pat is fully involved with Force and DET 1 to my knowledge.
Thought this would help!
Tac
Edit Techbrute you beat me to it. Second that, check http://www.tacticalforums.com[url]
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Regulations
Grunt said: (Like that nic, by the way. HOOAH!)
Yes but what you're forgetting is that it's a big no-no to take apart any weapon as far as you describe it. Don't think I'd really want to wind up in the brig for taking the grip safety out for cleaning!
-------------------------------------
Regulations were for the guys in the rear with the beer. When one is deep in "Injun Country", the enforcement of such regs is rare. Let's look at
a hypothetical situation...Take Merrill's Marauders during their little
sightseeing trip in Burma. If one of the boys happened to step into a
mudhole up to his waist, and got his .45 fulla gunk...What do ya thing he'll do? Is he gonna obey the rules, drop it in his ruck and wait until he can
turn it in to the unit armorer? Or will he break it down, clean it up and
put it back together? (And God help some spit'n'shine shavetail who
even threatens him with an Article 15.)
Switch over to Vietnam. Scrounging for a suitable pistol was one of the
things that was high on the priority list. The Cherries who didn't do it right away soon did, if they lived long enough... though we weren't supposed
to even have one, according to "regs".
We had a captain, fresh outta ROTC come in country and, upon noticing all
the pistols, announced that they had to be turned in by a certain time and date..and the "Little Incident" would be overlooked. Care to venture a
guess as to how many were surrendered? (We had a good laugh over that one.) When he cranked up the pressure with threats of discplinary action, an old Master Gunnery Sargeant called him to the side and reminded him how far from Twentynine Palms he was. The issue was dropped. We kept our pistols, and we kept right on detail-strippin'em about twice a week to make sure they worked when they needed to...which they did for a few of us.
Cheers! and Semper Fi...
Tuner
Grunt said: (Like that nic, by the way. HOOAH!)
Yes but what you're forgetting is that it's a big no-no to take apart any weapon as far as you describe it. Don't think I'd really want to wind up in the brig for taking the grip safety out for cleaning!
-------------------------------------
Regulations were for the guys in the rear with the beer. When one is deep in "Injun Country", the enforcement of such regs is rare. Let's look at
a hypothetical situation...Take Merrill's Marauders during their little
sightseeing trip in Burma. If one of the boys happened to step into a
mudhole up to his waist, and got his .45 fulla gunk...What do ya thing he'll do? Is he gonna obey the rules, drop it in his ruck and wait until he can
turn it in to the unit armorer? Or will he break it down, clean it up and
put it back together? (And God help some spit'n'shine shavetail who
even threatens him with an Article 15.)
Switch over to Vietnam. Scrounging for a suitable pistol was one of the
things that was high on the priority list. The Cherries who didn't do it right away soon did, if they lived long enough... though we weren't supposed
to even have one, according to "regs".
We had a captain, fresh outta ROTC come in country and, upon noticing all
the pistols, announced that they had to be turned in by a certain time and date..and the "Little Incident" would be overlooked. Care to venture a
guess as to how many were surrendered? (We had a good laugh over that one.) When he cranked up the pressure with threats of discplinary action, an old Master Gunnery Sargeant called him to the side and reminded him how far from Twentynine Palms he was. The issue was dropped. We kept our pistols, and we kept right on detail-strippin'em about twice a week to make sure they worked when they needed to...which they did for a few of us.
Cheers! and Semper Fi...
Tuner
bradvanhorn
Member
tac1911shooter - Thanks! That clarifies things a bit. I also sent Pat a courteous email via tacticalforums.com to introduce myself and express my interest in his knowledge on the original subject of this thread. If I learn anything new (that is, not already posted here), then I'll post it here.
They know this, and they don't care, because the benefits of giving the highspeedlowdrag boys what they want, outweighs the logistics headaches.
On tacticalforums, Frogman has described just one or two of the scenarios where a SEAL will sling his longarm and use his pistol as his primary...
D.
As much as I like the P220 and wish it didn't hurt when I fire one, go nose around tacticalforums.com for a while, and see for yourself what the BTDTs' opinions are of the Al-framed P220s.
As for the steel P220s, I wouldn't be surprised if SOCOM, MEU(SOC), etc, view them as an unknown quantity. Not from the sense of insane round counts -- that's pretty easy to test quickly -- but from the sense of an insane round count, continuously, for years. There's no way to speed up that test. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few for just this sort of long-term testing, but they'll be going with a known quantity until they get the data they want.
D.
johnny , you were right the f-***** are everywhere , even here on THR...
.where are you going to find a better, simpler pistol than a 1911a1 ?
i have sigs , H&Ks, S&Ws, others , but when it gets serious and nasty i default to the 1911a1's i own ....
.where are you going to find a better, simpler pistol than a 1911a1 ?
i have sigs , H&Ks, S&Ws, others , but when it gets serious and nasty i default to the 1911a1's i own ....
Last edited:
Andrew Wyatt
Member
that may be , but the elite Megaforce uses the new benelli m4 shotgun as their sidearm, because they're tough.
when you're assaulting an enemy camp from 400 yards away, you don't need an outdated 1911 or a usp that'll melt the first time you go swimming in acetone, you need an m-14 and 25 loaded 20 round magazines.
When i was a Megaforce SOCOM Commando, I carried sixteen smith and wesson model 10s and two Accuracy International AW-50s because i'm tough.
ok , i realize you're being sacastic(or you got some really good crack going)...
that may be , but the elite Megaforce uses the new benelli m4 shotgun as their sidearm, because they're tough.
when you're assaulting an enemy camp from 400 yards away, you don't need an outdated 1911 or a usp that'll melt the first time you go swimming in acetone, you need an m-14 and 25 loaded 20 round magazines.
When i was a Megaforce SOCOM Commando, I carried sixteen smith and wesson model 10s and two Accuracy International AW-50s because i'm tough.
but what does the above post have to do with the thread at hand ?
that may be , but the elite Megaforce uses the new benelli m4 shotgun as their sidearm, because they're tough.
when you're assaulting an enemy camp from 400 yards away, you don't need an outdated 1911 or a usp that'll melt the first time you go swimming in acetone, you need an m-14 and 25 loaded 20 round magazines.
When i was a Megaforce SOCOM Commando, I carried sixteen smith and wesson model 10s and two Accuracy International AW-50s because i'm tough.
but what does the above post have to do with the thread at hand ?
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