Marines open up competition to non-1911

[Chuck Jennings]

When i was a Megaforce SOCOM Commando, I carried sixteen smith and wesson model 10s and two Accuracy International AW-50s because i'm tough.

Did your unit unit deploy with ceramic trauma plates duct taped to your flack jacket? Who in you unit was responsible for the NEF 300 Win mag rifle? I'd like to know, becuase the Megaforce SOCOM Commandos are TOUGH!!

Back to your regularly scheduled program . . .

 

[jaysouth]

I see a lot of confusion about USMC units and terminology.

Would someone who is a current or recent member of the Corps chime in and straighten me out if I have erred below.

MEU-SOC is a Marine Expedetionary Unit with infantry battalions, artillery and aviation. Several thousand warriors commanded by an 0-6 Col. Members of a MEU-SOC who are designated handgun bearers carry a Beretta M-9.

MEU-SOC is also a set of specs for a hand gun that was to be issued to MEU-SOCs but somehow never were.

Force Recon, a small group of deadly warriors who carry .45s made to MEU-SOC specs but may or may not be a part of a MEU-SOC unit.

SOCOM Det, not the right terminology probably, but a small group of Marines who have recently agreed to go to work for the army doing whatever SOCOM needs them to do.

Would a real Marine step up and help me out. I was in the army for a long time but spent a lot of time swapping lies and buying rounds of beer for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

Whatever I did in a former life, my current secret operational code name is "fatleg" in observance of my current non-jump status(fear of heights) and beer gut from drinking too much beer. Rainbow 6 selection turned me down because of the arthritic condition in my gameboy thumb.

By the way, I know a bunch of people who still hang out around Smoke Bomb Hill, none of them has ever SEEN a SOCOM H&K. There may be some somewhere, but they don't seem to be in any armsrooms on Ft. Bragg. The vast majority of SOCOM still carry the M-9. Not likely to change soon.

 

[fix]

Would someone who is a current or recent member of the Corps chime in and straighten me out if I have erred below.

Gladly. My comments in red.


MEU-SOC is a Marine Expedetionary Unit with infantry battalions, artillery and aviation. Several thousand warriors commanded by an 0-6 Col. Members of a MEU-SOC who are designated handgun bearers carry a Beretta M-9.

Correct.

MEU-SOC is also a set of specs for a hand gun that was to be issued to MEU-SOCs but somehow never were.

Incorrect. The .45s were never intended to be general issue. They were always earmarked for Force Recon shooters.

Force Recon, a small group of deadly warriors who carry .45s made to MEU-SOC specs but may or may not be a part of a MEU-SOC unit.

Close enough to call correct.

SOCOM Det, not the right terminology probably, but a small group of Marines who have recently agreed to go to work for the army doing whatever SOCOM needs them to do.

Partially correct. They are working for SOCOM, not the Army directly. Semantics really, but the more accurate statement would be, "Working with the Army, possibly under another service's command."

 

[Sean Smith]

Special Operations Command (SOCOM) is a joint command. It doesn't belong to any one service.

 

[BrokenArrow]

For you 1911 fans, some interesting stuff by Pat Rogers

http://www.full-auto.com/library_article_meu-soc.htm

"These pistols are will used. The last one I was issued has 82,000 rounds in the gun book. This is not uncommon, as the Marines of Force Recon are hard shooters. During the 6 month pre-deployment work up, and the actual
deployment itself, an operator will fire 20,000 to 40,000 rounds to acquire
and maintain proficiency with his secondary weapon."

More at

http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm

"During the course of a workup/ deployment, the operator will put a lot of
rounds through his pistol. It is not uncommon for the pistols to come back
with 80,000+ rounds fired. The pistol will be returned to the PWS at
Quantico for a rebuild. Generally, all parts save the frame (which is a U.S.
Government frame last manufactured in 1945) are discarded. The frame is
inspected, and if within specs, rebuilt again. There are some frames that
may have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired from them.

The OIC of the Precision Weapons Shop, CWO5 Ken Davis, is convinced (as are many others) that the 1911 is the only pistol that can stand up to this use.

We certainly have the right gun for the right job."

They were going to continue to rebuild a product improved version w a
selected group of parts, but that didn't happen. RFP and bids went out for a
new pistol (1911) due by Aug 03. That didn't happen either.

The old specs courtesy Daniel Watters:

SOURCES SOUGHT - .45 Caliber Combat Handgun - 1/16/2003
From Federal Business Opportunities: (edited for length)

The Marine Corps Systems Command (MARCORSYSCOM) Quantico, VA, is seeking information concerning Caliber .45 ACP Single Action, Semiautomatic Combat Pistols.

Requirements of this pistol are as follows:

Weapon Magazine: Each Combat Pistol will be provided with two new magazines.

Estimated Quantity: The Marine Corps may procure up to 750 weapons.
MARCORSYSCOM is interested in firms who can begin making deliveries of
proposed weapons in a timely fashion. All items proposed MUST BE available at the time of submission of the Request for Proposals (RFP).

Estimated TimeLine: It is anticipated that the RFP will be released on 1
March 2003 with fielding of the new pistol NLT 25 August 2003.

Requirement Description: The handgun shall, as a threshold requirement, use standard DoD lubricants and use existing U.S. Government operator and maintainer's tool sets. No new tools, gauges shall be required. As an
objective requirement, the handgun shall be capable of being reconfigured,
without the use of any special tools. The longer configuration shall utilize
a barrel design for a silencer as a modular component. When in the longer
configuration, the handgun must still be capable of function firing
ammunition as defined in paragraph Ammunition Compatibility/Functioning.

Weight: The threshold weight of the unloaded handgun shall not exceed 3
pounds (2 pounds is the objective weight). Handgun uses a detachable box
magazine; the weight of the handgun will exclude the weight of the empty
magazine.

Receiver: The receiver shall provide checkered back strap and front strap,
lanyard loop, beveled magazine well to assist in rapid reloading and
extended standard diameter magazine release button.

Slide: The slide, as a threshold requirement, will provide serrated area at
muzzle and rear.

Length: The maximum overall length of the handgun will not exceed 21.26 cm (8.37 inches).

Grip Safety: If the weapon has a grip safety, a high beavertail grip safety
with a raised pad with a groove lower end should be provided.

Magazine: The handgun will, as a threshold requirement, use a standard
M1911A1 magazine loading system with a capacity of seven (threshold)
cartridges. It is desired (objective) that the handgun use a capacity of
eight cartridges and shall be able to accommodate all handgun cartridges
specified in Ammunition Compatibility/Functioning.

Grip: The handgun shall, as a threshold requirement, use a non-skid, wrap
around grip that incorporates front strap checkering, semi-soft neoprene
rubber compound and flat sides. The grip will not provide thumb rest,
cutaways or wrap-around finger grooves.

Mounting Interface: The handgun, as a threshold requirement, will be
provided with a standard universal U.S. Military mounting rail, parallel to
the center of the barrel bore, and integral to the receiver and capable of
mounting fielded and future items. MIL-STD-1913 shall be used for guidance.

Sight: The handgun, as a threshold requirement, shall be equipped with iron sights. High visibility three dot day/night sights. The rear sight shall be
adjustable in windage only. Sight factory set for impact center mass at
22.85 meters (25 yards), 50 meter (54.7 yards) objective with U.S.
Government, NATO and SAAMI caliber 45 ammunition.

Safety: The handgun, as a threshold requirement, shall have a safety devicedetente in both the 'safe' and 'fire' position. When in the safe position,the safety shall prevent the weapon from firing. The shooter shall be able to verify the position of the safety by both sight and touch. It shall be moveable from the safe into the fire position by the operator without moving his hands from the shooting position (prone, standing, kneeling, sitting). It shall remain in the position the operator sets it until it is manually
changed. The safety shall require force of between three (3) and ten (10)
pounds to operate. The safety, as a threshold, will provide ambidextrous
extended thumb operation.

Method of Operation: The handgun will employ a semiautomatic mode of
operation to cycle the action during normal firing. The action will operate
without interruption throughout its full travel. The action will also be
capable of manual cycling using the slide. If the design of the weapon uses
an aluminum receiver, the bolt will lock directly to the barrel, barrel
extension or slide.

The operating mechanism will include a locking device to hold the bolt/slide
in its rearmost position after the last round is fired or when the slide is
manually moved to its rearmost position. When manually clearing the handgun of live rounds, the operator may actuate a control device (i.e., button, lever, etc.) to activate the locking device to hold the bolt/slide in its
rearmost position. However, when firing the weapon, the locking device shall automatically lock the bolt/slide open in its rearmost position when the
last round has been fired. The lock shall be manually operable to allow the
bolt/slide to return to and lock in the battery position.

The action, when operated semi-automatically or manually, will reliably feed
and chamber ammunition types as specified in Ammunition
Compatibility/Functioning regardless of weapon attitude (top up, top down,
right side down, left side down, butt end down, butt end up). The handgun
will allow for ambidextrous firing.

Exterior Surfaces: All exposed exterior surfaces shall be dull and
non-reflective. The objective colors are gray, black, brown, or green.

Performance Envelope: The handgun, in its standard or long configuration,
will have an effective thresthold range to engage targets up to and
including 22.85 meters (25 yards), 50 meters (54.7 yards) objective with
U.S. Government, NATO and SAAMI caliber 45 ammunition.

Targeting/Dispersion: The handgun, as a threshold requirement, will be such that a seven round shot group will not exceed 10.2 cm (4 inches) at 22.85 meters (25 yards) (50 meter (54.7 yards) objective) meters when fired with U.S. Government, NATO and SAAMI .45 caliber ammunition.

Trigger Pull: The handgun shall have a trigger pull of 5 + 1 pounds. The
trigger pull shall be free of creep.

Reloading Rate: The handgun shall allow a trained operator to reload 7
rounds in a box magazine system in less than 25 seconds (threshold) and 20 seconds (objective) for each of the following conditions: by a person
dressed in cold weather gloves and mittens, while in a MOPP IV posture and under reduced visibility conditions.

Temperature Extremes: The handgun shall be operable and safely function at hot (155 degrees + 5 degrees F) and cold (-55 degrees + 5 degrees F)
temperatures.

Drop Test: The handgun, with the safety in the on position and an empty
primed 45 ACP cartridge case in the chamber, shall be capable of
withstanding the impact when dropped from a height of 1.5 meters (five feet) onto a smooth concrete/steel surface without causing any functional damage to the weapon. The primed cartridge case shall not discharge.

Endurance: The handgun shall withstand the firing a minimum of 30,000 rounds without requiring overhaul. The receiver, bolt/slide and barrel, as a
threshold requirement, shall not need replacing during the 30,000 rounds
fired.

Mean Rounds Between Failures (MRBF): The handgun shall demonstrate a MRBF of 5,000 or greater (10,000 is the objective).

Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (MRBS): The handgun shall demonstrate a MRBS of 300 or greater (900 is the objective). A stoppage is defined as any incident resulting in unplanned cessation in firing or inability to commence firing. This includes stoppages traceable or chargeable to an unserviceable part.

Maintainability: The handgun shall allow the operator to perform all
necessary maintenance using standard DOD lubricants/solvent, without the use of any tools other than the equipment in the standard cleaning kit. Parts and assemblies removed or disassembled for maintenance under field
conditions shall be designed to prevent improper assembly. Captive hardware shall be used to prevent loss of retaining pins.

Disassembly: The handgun shall be capable of being field-stripped by a
trained operator, under normal conditions, in less than 60 seconds (30
seconds is the objective). The handgun shall also allow for field stripping
in less than two minutes (one minute is the objective) for each of the
following conditions: by a person dressed in cold weather gloves and
mittens, while in MOPP IV posture and under reduced visibility conditions.
Disassembly shall be accomplished without the use of any tools other than
those in the standard cleaning kit.

Parts Interchangeability: The handgun shall have the capability of
exchanging or replacing the parts and modules between like combat handguns. All operator/intermediate support replaceable parts and modules shall be interchangeable without hand or machine fitting.

Corrosion Resistance: Metallic components shall be constructed of corrosion
resistant material or coated with corrosion resisting protective coatings.
Protective finishes shall minimize the attraction of dust and contamination
with organic material. The following finishes are recommended for metallic
components:

1) Carbon Steel: Manganese or Zinc Phosphate (ref. 5.3.1, 5.3.2 or Table V,
MIL-STD-171);
2) Aluminum: Hard Coat Anodic Coating (reference 7.1, 7.2, 7.5 of Table VII,
MIL-STD-171);
3) Corrosion Resistant Steel: Black Oxide (reference 3.3 of Table III,
MIL-STD-171)

Salt Fog: The exposed handgun shall function two full magazines, without
stoppages, after 96 hours of exposure to a Salt Fog Test.

 

[Zip06]

BrokenArrow - Excellent post.

 

[Detritus]

Regulations were for the guys in the rear with the beer. When one is deep in "Injun Country", the enforcement of such regs is rare..... we kept right on detail-strippin'em about twice a week to make sure they worked when they needed to...which they did for a few of us.

a valid adn needed illistration of this reality.

for those of you who do NOT know. AS ISSUED, the Standard USGI (i do NOT know about the MEU-SOC spec'd pistols) 1911A1, was designed to and can be, completely detail stripped using nothing more than the troop's Hands and the previously removed parts of the pistol!

i used to have a link to a complete and illistrated rundown of "how to detail strip your 1911 with no tools" (it was lost in either the computer switch or the change of ISP). i think the only thing NOT removed in that process were the grip panels and i maybe wrong about them. it was obviopus that this process was intended for use ONLY when such a task was needed (such as gun full of filth as mentioned in 1911tuner's post) and it was impossible or simply to much of a PITA to get an armorer to do it.

maybe such a need has passed but i think not. THAT is why I personally would rather have a 1911 or other similarly "well engineered for it's intended use" pistol, over some new fancy whizbag "uberpistole".

my take on this whole issue is that IF this testing and procurment process goes forward, that the ONLY guns that will be SERIOUSLY considered will be 1911s with a few needed engineering changes that allow them to better fill the needs of those who use them. as has been hashed to death here and elsewhere, even after 93 years, LEGIT reasons to NOT use a 1911 when it's YOUR @$$ on the line, are rather few and tend to be VERY subjective.

face it if not for a political need to "tow the NATO Status Quo" we'd most likely STILL be using a 1911 derivitive as the general issue sidearm (thogh i think we'd have opened procurement for at least a FEW new production runs from Colt, Et Al...)