Mausers, Enfields, Springfields still used by guerrilla...does it make sense??
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LeonCarr
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I read that at the start of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, 90% of the Muhajadeen were armed with .303 Enfields, and the other 10% had muzzleloaders.
They still work.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
They still work.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Float Pilot
Member
When Yugoslavia broke up and became what it is now, millions of rounds of 7.92x57mm hit the world market. Along with a bunch of rifles to shoot it.. Plus any arms dealer worth a Farthing can order a semi truck load from Privi or Igmann.
10 riflemen, with 50 rounds each, can tie up millions of dollars worth of modern military assets.
All it takes is one well placed shot per month to keep the game going.
10 riflemen, with 50 rounds each, can tie up millions of dollars worth of modern military assets.
All it takes is one well placed shot per month to keep the game going.
evan price
Member
The common philosophy is that a guerilla force requires the occupying force to expend 7X the force to restrain the guerillas. IE, a 300-man guerilla force would need at least 2100 men to contain them. THese men would be guards, patrols, escorts, and platoons searching for the guerillas.
iirc, in WWII the USFIP (US Forces in the Philipines) was a guerilla force led my self-promoted Brig. Gen Wendell Fertig (Formerly Lt Colonel, Reserve Forces). Fertig's forces numbered around 30,000 men, including Fillipinos and escaped US servicemen, and only about 15,000 of them had some sort of firearm. His band of irregulars (About two divisions' worth, scantily equipped) tied down about 300,000 Japanese soldiers, which is an entire army group.
Guerilla forces typically do not need large quantities of materiel because they do not ever intend to get into large scale firefights. A guerilla force's job is to harry, harass, and deny security to the occupying force, reduce morale, and to force the occupying force to expend men and equipment dealing with the guerillas.
Long range accurate rifles, to snipe individual opposing force soldiers, damage equipment, shoot holes in fuel tanks, etc. are much more useful than assault rifles, to a guerilla force.
The calibers you speak of would all have some ammo available, even a bandoleer of rifle ammo would have enough to equip a large number of guerillas. They won't have anywhere to stockpile supplies securely, and have to be highly mobile with what they can carry.
iirc, in WWII the USFIP (US Forces in the Philipines) was a guerilla force led my self-promoted Brig. Gen Wendell Fertig (Formerly Lt Colonel, Reserve Forces). Fertig's forces numbered around 30,000 men, including Fillipinos and escaped US servicemen, and only about 15,000 of them had some sort of firearm. His band of irregulars (About two divisions' worth, scantily equipped) tied down about 300,000 Japanese soldiers, which is an entire army group.
Guerilla forces typically do not need large quantities of materiel because they do not ever intend to get into large scale firefights. A guerilla force's job is to harry, harass, and deny security to the occupying force, reduce morale, and to force the occupying force to expend men and equipment dealing with the guerillas.
Long range accurate rifles, to snipe individual opposing force soldiers, damage equipment, shoot holes in fuel tanks, etc. are much more useful than assault rifles, to a guerilla force.
The calibers you speak of would all have some ammo available, even a bandoleer of rifle ammo would have enough to equip a large number of guerillas. They won't have anywhere to stockpile supplies securely, and have to be highly mobile with what they can carry.
Roo
Member
I was under the impression that poor countries, particularly those with a large centre of argiculture, tend to produce skilled hunters by default. My father grew up in a relatively poor rural scene and he remembers that even the youngest kids were crack shots. Anything less did not put food on the table.
The type of users you describe often use what they can get their hands on. They may be limited by funding or by simple availability. Anyone making war today with an 03 or a 98 is not using it because that was his first choice. Not that you can't fight with such a rifle, but it's not the best option.
HorseSoldier
Member
Guerillas preferentially, the world over, dump their bolt action rifles as soon as they can lay hands on AKs, M1/M2 carbines, SMGs, or most anything else that can produce a better volume of fire.
At that point in the war, the Muj were mostly getting their backsides handed to them by the Soviets any time they turned up to play. Things only started getting better for them when they started getting modern kit (not just AKs, but explosives, support weapons, and such).
At that point in the war, the Muj were mostly getting their backsides handed to them by the Soviets any time they turned up to play. Things only started getting better for them when they started getting modern kit (not just AKs, but explosives, support weapons, and such).
Hatterasguy
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Sure it makes sense.
They don't have any money or support so they use whatever shot out POS thats sitting around, hand the bullet sponge a few rounds half are duds, and off they go to get shot up by our guys.
If they had money they would use AK's or if they had a lot of money M16's with Acogs.
How forces are armed can tell you quite a bit about them, usualy who is supporting them, or lack their of.
They don't have any money or support so they use whatever shot out POS thats sitting around, hand the bullet sponge a few rounds half are duds, and off they go to get shot up by our guys.
If they had money they would use AK's or if they had a lot of money M16's with Acogs.
How forces are armed can tell you quite a bit about them, usualy who is supporting them, or lack their of.
Ignition Override
Member
Somebody should try to explain to the South African govt. that there is no logical reason to now destroy Lee-Enfields, Brens etc and their ammo, as they reportedly accept foreign money to do so.
Based on a second-hand report at either 'Surplusrifle', or 'Gunboards', South Africa is the latest country to accept money from international organizations to destroy any surplus rifles and ammo. When the poster's buddy visited a gun store in a S. A. city months ago, he sadly watched the staff destroying a bit of it, under govt. orders.
There is a website for a Brit/Euro arms control group which pays countries to do this, but I never bookmarked it or recorded its name.
Based on a second-hand report at either 'Surplusrifle', or 'Gunboards', South Africa is the latest country to accept money from international organizations to destroy any surplus rifles and ammo. When the poster's buddy visited a gun store in a S. A. city months ago, he sadly watched the staff destroying a bit of it, under govt. orders.
There is a website for a Brit/Euro arms control group which pays countries to do this, but I never bookmarked it or recorded its name.
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It doesn't take much of a weapon to capture a bigger weapon.
Anybody seen that movie about the Bielski Otriad? The guy started out with a crappy late 19th early 20th century revolver with three bullets. In fairly short order that gets him a 98k or two, with which he captures an MP40.
Let's take your guerillas, make it 30 of em. Each one has a WWI/2 bolt action, and five rounds (ten in the Enfield). You make their target any hapless group of three to five first world troops doing some kind of small job. In an ambush the smallest ratio is 6 guerillas to one infantry. How many targets can one guy shoot at a time? Figure the infantry to have SCHV weapons, and body armor built to resist them. Play-doh against a WWI/II battle rifle round. Your modern troops are toast. Your guerillas now have between three to five new rifles and one sidearm, and figuring even losing 50% of the force even the guys with the old rifles will be able to fill their magazines and there will be rifles and ammo left over.
Heck, you don't even need a real gun. Anyone seen any riot footage from Central/South America? Agitators in the crowd are always carrying these funky made-of-pipe kludgey looking grenade launcher things. I'm sure you could get within ten feet of somebody with some kind of gun, and I'm darn sure getting hit with one of them that close ain't gonna do no favors. At the least they're getting laid out. Drop pipe weapon, grab gun, RLH.
Bottom line, if you're not worried about law or your fellow man there's a way to arm yourself. If you have half a brain you can use what you capture to capture more. If you're caught you're dead anyway.
Anybody seen that movie about the Bielski Otriad? The guy started out with a crappy late 19th early 20th century revolver with three bullets. In fairly short order that gets him a 98k or two, with which he captures an MP40.
Let's take your guerillas, make it 30 of em. Each one has a WWI/2 bolt action, and five rounds (ten in the Enfield). You make their target any hapless group of three to five first world troops doing some kind of small job. In an ambush the smallest ratio is 6 guerillas to one infantry. How many targets can one guy shoot at a time? Figure the infantry to have SCHV weapons, and body armor built to resist them. Play-doh against a WWI/II battle rifle round. Your modern troops are toast. Your guerillas now have between three to five new rifles and one sidearm, and figuring even losing 50% of the force even the guys with the old rifles will be able to fill their magazines and there will be rifles and ammo left over.
Heck, you don't even need a real gun. Anyone seen any riot footage from Central/South America? Agitators in the crowd are always carrying these funky made-of-pipe kludgey looking grenade launcher things. I'm sure you could get within ten feet of somebody with some kind of gun, and I'm darn sure getting hit with one of them that close ain't gonna do no favors. At the least they're getting laid out. Drop pipe weapon, grab gun, RLH.
Bottom line, if you're not worried about law or your fellow man there's a way to arm yourself. If you have half a brain you can use what you capture to capture more. If you're caught you're dead anyway.
Ignition Override
Member
heviarti:
A Jewish girl in the Ukraine or Belarus etc somehow avoided being swept into the Holocaust, because she knew how to use a bolt-action rifle and had some ammo. There was a link to this on whichever gun website forum months ago.
"A Rumour of War" was written by former Marine Lt. Philip Caputo, whose Marine division was the first into Vietnam. He knew one officer who was killed on the spot by a VC sniper who probably had a Mosin Nagant, from what I remember.
A magazine about military operations ( a year ago, from Borders) had a very clear photo of a bearded insurgent in Iraq posing with his PSL or Dragunov. Marines sometimes train with these at Twentynine Palms ("Wiki"). Even though it is a semi-auto, they are very old designs and use 7.62x54R, as with Mosin Nagants.
This caliber might be the oldest military round still issued today to troops.
A Jewish girl in the Ukraine or Belarus etc somehow avoided being swept into the Holocaust, because she knew how to use a bolt-action rifle and had some ammo. There was a link to this on whichever gun website forum months ago.
"A Rumour of War" was written by former Marine Lt. Philip Caputo, whose Marine division was the first into Vietnam. He knew one officer who was killed on the spot by a VC sniper who probably had a Mosin Nagant, from what I remember.
A magazine about military operations ( a year ago, from Borders) had a very clear photo of a bearded insurgent in Iraq posing with his PSL or Dragunov. Marines sometimes train with these at Twentynine Palms ("Wiki"). Even though it is a semi-auto, they are very old designs and use 7.62x54R, as with Mosin Nagants.
This caliber might be the oldest military round still issued today to troops.
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Any gun is better than a Bamboo Spear.
A Vietnam Veteran told me of a fight he witnessed. A bamboo armor wearing VC attacked a M60 machine gun and his only weapon was a bamboo spear.
He was a determined attacker and even though taking rounds during his charge, was able to run his spear through the throat of an American before dying. The American also died.
If he had a rifle, he might have gotten a couple of Americans.
A Vietnam Veteran told me of a fight he witnessed. A bamboo armor wearing VC attacked a M60 machine gun and his only weapon was a bamboo spear.
He was a determined attacker and even though taking rounds during his charge, was able to run his spear through the throat of an American before dying. The American also died.
If he had a rifle, he might have gotten a couple of Americans.
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