Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!

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The second time, the BG was using a .45. When he got hit (once), it knocked the wind out of him.

Isn't there a video floating around here on the High Road where a trooper or deputy is having a man open a box in the back of his truck, and the man turns on the officer and tries to stab him? In that video I believe the officer shoots him....with his .45....and then watches while the guy walks around, has a conversation with the officer about why the officer shot him, and then fights with him later when the officer decides to take him to the pavement. If I remember correctly, the officer's gun was a .45 (don't quote me though) and that he didn't just "wing" the man.Hopefully someone else knows the video and can post it here.

Anyway my point is that you are talking about a few hundreds of an ounce difference in weight between a .45 slug and 9mm, and a couple of hundred feet per second difference in speed between the two. In my opinion, they are essentially the same in regards to their effectiveness in stopping a threat. Both require shot placement to be effective. In fact, it might be better for a shooter to carry a caliber they are UNCOMFORTABLE with. One that they doubt the effectiveness of. If they did this, they would be FAR more inclined to make sure they aimed their meager weapon to get the most benefit.

People have survived being shot with a .308 and larger rifles. Many of them during wartime. Some of these people have continued to fight for long periods of time after being wounded. Arguing about which bullet is better at the pistol level is ridiculous when we know that even rifles are occasionally ineffective in stopping a threat. None of the pistol calibers are truly effective, truth be known, and arguing about the effectiveness of one under powered pocket slug thrower versus another underpowered slug thrower...although amusing to watch and occasionally participate in...seems pointless.
 
Maybe we should put this to bed?

I have always gone on record as prefering the.40 and .45 [I am ex-undercover dectective-seen [TSHTF] many a time. Honestly gentlemen there is a reason we have larger calibers-and there is a reason LE use semi-autos-Bigger bullets and more shots equal a better chance of putting down the perps! I used a revolver, but that is because it was back in the 80's when semi-autos were not as reliable or as accepted by LE as they are now. They make ammunition now days, as I am sure you are all aware of, in the .40 caliber size that comes close to the terminal ballistics of the.357 magnum-- and believe me the .357 is a stopper. Sure you will hear stories of someone who survived being shot by a .357 at close range, but do you know how rare that is? A .40 or .45 with the correct ammo is a very deadly weapon. I have freinds in LE that are amazed at the results of these two calibers with todays ammo. Esp the .40 because of its lesser recoil and mag capacity it is very popular in the LE community.

I wish the best for all of you! You are a great bunch of guys!
Maybe we will never have to use our weapons for a defensive reason, but if we do---- may God Guide your shots, and keep you and yours safe!
 
"whump.........whump.........whump" the sound of a dead horse being beat.
My God how long will this argument continue? If people are happy with their
9mm so be it (let them die in peace :neener: ). I happen to prefer my .45auto but dont climb up somebodys :cuss: anytime I hear them say they like a 9mm over a .45. Some people (women) find the 9mm a more comfortable round to handle, less recoil, etc. Any round is better than no round, and a 9mm or anything smaller in your pocket is better than a .45 in the truck. To each their own.

P.S One shot kills are as much about luck as they are about shot placement, how big the projectile is, and so on. Many a person has takena .308, 30-06. 7.62, (insert your choice of caliber here) to the chest and gotten back up. If you really want knockdown power then get a 12ga loaded with 00 buck, or a .50BMG. If not your 9mm has about as much of a chance of killing Mr.Badguy as my .45. My $0.02.
 
calibers.gif
Just look at the difference, guys, you could drop the massive bore of the .45 around your attacker from the top and capture him just like a mouse under a bucket.

:neener:
 
Sure you will hear stories of someone who survived being shot by a .357 at close range, but do you know how rare that is?

I've got a better idea of it now than I did an hour ago. Being shot with a .357 at all is actually rare. The majority of 357's out there are largish pistols. Not really concealable until the new brand of .357 pocket revolvers started coming out in the last few years. So people can't conceal them as well and they aren't the first weapon reached for. Among those people who are shot with a .357, the majority don't die. And a lot of times, they aren't incapacitated either.

Shot Twice .357 http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/news/local/27lshot.html

Woman Shot Twice with .357...and survives a jump afterward. http://www.localsource.com/articles...cord/news/local/doc44ed0696e22c6024574445.txt

Soprano's Actor Shooting Officer to Death. Officer was shot with a .357...and he DID die, I'll grant you, but he shot both suspects 6 times with an off duty .25 caliber AFTER he was shot once in the chest with a .357. So not an immediate stop.
http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/nyc-cop1211,0,2435080.story?coll=ny-entertainment-headlines
And also here. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/people/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001699654

Girls shot with .357. One in chest. http://www.bouldernews.com/news/local/17adead.html

Cougar Takes it Like a Man
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/99/jan99/1999n4.htm

School Shooting with .357 in Georgia
6 wounded nobody dies. http://www.cnn.com/interactive/specials/9904/school.shootings/content/conyers.html

If you'll do a search on the Net in news articles you'll that people being shot with a .357, or with an type round, and surviving is not uncommon. In fact it is more common for someone to be wounded and not die from a .357, or from any bullet, than for someone to die.
I'm not saying that the .357 is a bad round for self defense. It's not. What I am trying to point out though is that a belief that a pistol bullet, or that any bullet, is going to substitute for being a good shot is not a wise policy. Even when shots are perfect and would normally be fight ending shots, they don't always work. Even with .357. But the same is true for all guns.
 
Good research Borachon !

I do apologize I did say survive and I meant stopped. When I was undercover I used a smith and wesson .357 mag with a three inch barrel for my carry piece. In most cases it stopped the perp.

My whole reason for participating in this thread is the people on THR are good people that work have families etc. They have guns for recreation and defense. They have a right and a need to use the best to defend themselves.

I had to deal with mostly narcotics dealers who were also murders a lot of times and had organized crime connections. I was in LE for just under 8 years. I was shot twice in the right hip and it shattered. [you guessed it a .45] I am 50 years old an 11 years into my second hip replacement on the right side. [left side is good] I still work out every other day [not an ounce of fat] and keep my eyes open. [ I have a much more mundane job outside of LE now.] What I took away from my experience is a Love for LE and Guns. The guys I worked with back then were great. We had none of that corruption crap. We watched out for eachother and took a lot of bad guys off the street.

My advise is use a semi-auto and shoot the perp at least twice in the chest-you may have multiple attackers these days. If they break into your house they are not there to sell you girl scout cookies-take them out! Firepower and multiple shots. I keep a .40 cal semi-auto on my night stand I have 15 in the mag and one in the chamber. My back up is a new 14 round .45 acp. In the .40 I use 165 gr winchester sxt [sure to open] In the back-up I have 230 gr winchester sxt. I practice with the same grains in each caliber.

I hope the people on THR never have to use their guns in a defensive situation. But if you do remember fire power and multiple hits! Take the Bad guy down! Remember it is you and your family you are ptotecting the bad guy does not deserve to get up again.

My best to all of you! This is a great site!
 
Thank you for your service in law enforcement from both your community and by extention to the nation.

I think that my perception on what constitutes a "good" gun have changed as time has gone on. When I was younger, I felt safer with larger bore handguns and made the .45 1911 my handgun of choice.

As time has gone by and as I have experienced certain events in my life, my opinion...and it is exactly that...has changed in regard to handguns. Whereas before I valued the big bore, I now value the reliability of the handgun in performance, and accuracy. The caliber isn't as important to me now as being able to accurately fire and being sure the gun fires when you pull the trigger.

9mm, .40, .45, or .357 aren't as important to me as being able to hit the target.
 
Borachon,that trooper you referred is Mike Ralston of the Ga.state Patrol.
And yes,it was one of the first S&W .45's to be used by GSP.
That occured in Gordon county(Calhoun) Ga.
My partner and I have backed up "Miami Mike" on many felony drug stops
along I-75 when I worked with the SO there.
Van Keller ,a trainer for GSP,has written many gun articles in the past and several for Combat handguns. He was testing the S&W .45 for the GSP when Mike was at the height of his drug interdiction stops.He sent the .45 down from the next county,Whitfield,for Mike to use ,as he felt that he needed the
additional firepower of an auto pistol over the revolvers they were issued at that time.
When that man went to trial the judge actually told him that he thought the trooper used remarkable restraint by only shooting him once.He went up the river. I've fired that particular weapon myself a couple of times. It was a good one,a 645,but very heavy and bulky.
 
Firstly a side note for JohnKSa about vascular damage: I have seen cases (not many, granted) where intimal flaps were found in the arteries of gunshot victims by means of angiography. In these cases the vessels were patent but partially occluded. These were differentiated from extrinsic compression (by haematoma) by the shape of the filling defect. That differentiation was done by the South African radiologists involved in the case. Certainly though, your money would be reasonably safe if you bet on a handgun round not being able to cause tactically significant incapacitation by means of damaging vessels by the effects of the temporary cavity. Nevertheless the presence of the intimal flaps needs to be considered if the question is asked regarding temporary cavity as a possible cause of these filling defects in vessels.

I'll tell you gents straight away what my background is, so you can dismiss or take stock of what I have to say from the outset. My primary qualification is diagnostic radiographer. My training and experience is from SA, and the hospital where I worked in JHB would see about 150 gunshot victims every month. I worked more than 3 years permanent night shift there and I saw many gunshot victims, somewhere around 3,000 probably more (if I include my day-shift years and training too). But the really interesting thing I was able to do was conduct formal research into live gunshot victims in 2002 and for that study, I had a sample of 150 victims from a pool of 542, in a four month period. Here is what I set out to do for my research cases:

1) Record all the clinical findings upon admission, including the location of skin breaches.
2) Photograph all the wounds.
3) Examine any clothing accompanying the patient and photograph any relevant breaches in the fabric.
4) X-ray the victims, or supervise the X-raying of the victims, with careful instructions to mark the surface breaches with radio-opaque markers for radiologocal trajectory plotting.
5) Document the treatment of the patient.
6) Accompany the patient to theatre, in certain circumstances.
7) Review the notes for surgical findings.
8) Photograph any recovered projectiles.
9) Develop an overall understanding of the teminal trajectory of the projectile.

This is quite a big project and I am still not finished with it, but I'll give my impression as it relates to this discussion. As many have pointed out, there can be miraculous escapes for many of the victims. I would say that typically in my research an escape was due to one of the following:

1) A terminal trajectory that penetrated to a reasonable depth but missed all the vital structures.
2) A terminal trajectory that was subject to deflection, away from a vital structure. Deflecting structures in my cases were items of clothing (such as belts), bony structures such as the skull, or in some cases soft tissue deflections (the projectile suffered a course change without any hard surface deflection).
3) Fragmentation of the projectile such that the trajectories of the daughter fragments were deviated from vital structures and/or the decreased energy of these daughter fragments resulted in decreased penetration of the victim.

At no point was I able to make a comment on the effectiveness or wounding potential of any one calibre relative to another. Most of our cases were due to handgus of service calibre, but there are several variables present in real shootings that are not duplicated in the laboratory:

1) Distance to target.
2) Angle of incidence.
3) Different clothing materials. The most unpredictable of these is the shoe. I had big problems with gunshot wounds to the foot where shoes had been worn.
4) Variables related to the weapon that could not be quantified due to lack of evidence.
5) Number and placement of shots, while simultaneously applying the variables above.

I don't think it is worth getting into a calibre war. There are too many variables in real-life shootings to arrive at a scientific conclusion about service calibres with any kind of certainty in my humble technical opinion. A lucky deflection for one guy may result in death for another. You really need to go through actual cases to get some understanding of the difficulties involved here.

There are probably a few things I have left out and I do have a huge amount of material related to gunshot wounds, but that is my opinion about calibre as it relates to this discussion. One of the things I would liked to have done is get access to data for dead-on-scene victims during the same time period. Unfortunately I could not do this. However several of my research patients died after the acute phase and I have general data on the whole pool of 542 gunshot victims, including the position of the wounds and the outcome/designated treatment area of the patients.
 
Borachon--- I am with you on that one!

You are very welcome!

I agree! I was so afraid of semi-autos for just that reason. I just switched to them a little over two months ago! I researched until I was blue in the face. I actually went for the Taurus 24/7 pro in a .40. I have put just over 1,000-rounds through it not even a hint of a problem. I broke down and bought a springfield armory .45 acp with 14 in mag, and another .40 /I really love the semi-autos now, a lot of fun to shoot! And the ones I have purchased so far are extremely reliable. [I think my wife is gonna kill me for stretching our budget though] She actually loves to shoot. She handles a .357 magnum quite well. I have not converted her to being a semi-auto fan yet but I am working on it.

The best to you and your family!
 
Ahh...never-ending debate. Very interesting points have been made but I still feel fine with the idea of carrying my Glock 17 around. Hell, I even carry it with standard pressure JHPs without fearing for my safety or the thought that it won't get the job done.
The 9mm cartridge has proven itself for about 100 years as being quite effective in both defensive and combat applications. Ask any WWII vet of the german side of things and they'll tell you that the P38 and MP40 were nothing to scoff at. Ask the SAS, who had plenty of chances to swap if they saw a reason to, why they've used the 9mm for over 60 years and they'll say it's because it gets the job done just fine.
In all honesty, I feel that a large part of the "9mm sucks!" crowd is due to Hollywood repeatedly demonstrating the one-shot stop all the time. When your typical shooter, wether it's a LE/soldier/civilian/whatever, hits the harsh reality of handgun combat, or firearms combat at all for that matter, where the target doesn't drop that second, flops around a bit before trying to shoot you again or simply don't realise/care that they've been shot then you get a big-time reality check. Then they start looking at their tools and come up with largely unfounded, but supported by others who've had similar situations, reasons why it failed them.

Just some thoughts from an untrained idiot,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
 
Odd Job,

Thanks for the writeup. Please bear with me while I summarize to see if I properly absorbed the information.

Intimal flaps are a type of damage to the internal part of a blood vessel that is not caused by direct contact by a projectile, but rather from some sort of energy transference. These flaps are "blown into" the blood vessel by a shock to the outside of the blood vessel and can cause differing levels of blockage in the vessel.

Intimal flaps are unlikely to be of a significant nature (in terms of incapacitation) when caused by handgun injuries but are evidence of at least some level of notable damage caused by temporary stretch cavities in handgun wounding.

Did I get close?

Thanks!

John
 
Carry the size of the bullet you want and have confidence in it.Just be glad they didn"t go ahead with the fletchette rifles for the military.The goverment even had sub .22 center rifle cartridges.Try and stop a fiend with that.Be glad that we have choices and can agree or disagree on this.Let see.Maybe I can find an ox to gore somewhere else in another thread.HMMM. How about all you revolver users.PHTTTT. :scrutiny: :D :rolleyes: :) Kidding here folks.On with the important stuff.Tootles.
 
@ JohnKSa

You nailed it on the head, sir! That matches exactly my understanding of this.
Arteries have three layers. Working from the outside to the inside: Tunica Adventitia, Tunica Media and Tunica Intima. The media and intima can peel off the adventitia without any breach of the adventitia. Even blunt trauma can cause intimal flaps or tears. Typical examples are hyperextension injuries of the neck (carotid artery damage) and blunt force trauma of the renal arteries.
Some filling defects have been nicely described and illustrated here:

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/224/2/366
 
1557
Wow! Someone who actually knows the officer from the film! I would have to agree with the judge. The officer showed admirable restraint in not shooting a few more times. I'm not entirely sure I myself would have had the courage or the clear presence of mind to have restrained myself in those circumstances. Officer Ralston is a real trooper...so to speak. :D
 
Odd Job,

Thanks again, and that's a very interesting article. Too bad they didn't break the injuries out by firearm type (rifle/pistol).

John
 
Everyone talks about placement like they will have time to aim. The point is that the lead will slow a BG down. As long as the lead keeps flying until he stops, it's all good. It doesn't matter if it takes one piece, or 3, or ten.
 
Everyone talks about placement like they will have time to aim. The point is that the lead will slow a BG down. As long as the lead keeps flying until he stops, it's all good. It doesn't matter if it takes one piece, or 3, or ten.

Hence why besides a .45, I do still keep an itty Beretta Jetfire as a bug. Because I know full well if the .45 goes :barf: and the BG is on top of me, I can empty the thing 's nine rounds so fast it sounds like it's gone full-auto, and reliably. I'm not sure why, but the Jetfire is far more reliable than the newer and larger caliber Tomcat.

And small or not, they ARE going to notice most of nine rounds, especially in the face. (and I think the latest gel tests showed 14"-18" with ball and newer propellants)

As for the nine, there's some specialty rounds that are said to be VERY effective at what they do. Things such as the GECO lightweight +P "Blitz Action Trauma" round that loses its plastic nose after firing, or Cor-Bon's 115gr +P out of a 9mm carbine, which gets well into the rifle velocity realm.
 
I've never seen the point of a 9mm vs. anything else discussion. Funny how some people come up with all these stories about seeing someone take a hit from a .357 or a .45 or some other respected, fairly mean round. And the person survives. Do you see the problem in those stories? ONE SHOT. It's always just the one shot. People, you shoot until the threat is stopped. Anybody looking for a one-shot stop in a defensive scenario involving two-legged critters is a fool if you ask me. One-shot stops are for animals ( you don't want to let that sucker get away from you and have you tracking all day now do ya?) I tend to prefer larger calibers than 9mm, but it can get the job done. Question is, do you feel confident that it will and will you make enough of the right hits to do the job? Stress will play havoc with your marksmanship. The nice thing about 9mm is you can almost always get a weapon chambered in it with plenty of ammo in that first magazine. Take for instance the glock 19: 15+1 rounds of your favorite defensive round before refueling. Same with the excellent Sig 226 or the Beretta in it's various 92-style offerings. That's never a bad thing. One of my personal favorites is the glock 21: 13+1 rounds of .45 acp in my favorite flavor: Speer Gold Dot 230 grain. But hey, I handle it as well or better than the 9mms I've had. So that's what I go with. Shot placement is key, but what difference does it make if the bullet doesn't do the job you need it to do? This is why anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice....or as many times as necessary. At any rate, you have to pick your ammo carefully. Get something that is designed to perform, and perform consistently. While caliber choice is always subjective, it's much better to stake your life on training, a reliable weapon, and premium ammo. Not just a specific caliber.
 
I didn't read all ten pages of this thread, so my apologies if I hit ground that someone else has already covered. It seems that everybody, including the coroner who started the thread on the other forum, agrees that shot placement is more important than caliber and that training is more important than caliber?

If my training budget for the next six months is $700. I can buy ~7,000 rounds of 9mm CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ, 3,700 rounds of .40S&W Wolf 180gr FMJ, or about 2,900 rounds of .45ACP Lawman 230gr FMJ.

So at the end of six months, who is more likely to be in the best position to make the shot placement that everybody agrees is important? The guy who fired 7,000 rounds of 9mm, the guy who fired 3,700 rounds of .40 or the guy who fired 2,900 rounds of .45?

I ask this because I know several people who like the larger calibers and believe that they are more effective than the 9mm. They just have limited budgets and believe that twice the training is more effective than the difference in calibers.
 
Does the number of practice rounds "really" make a difference for shot placement? It pretty much all goes south when the first incoming round shows up. Unless you practice with someone shooting at you. :)
 
ok ok ok i tryed keep my mouth shut but heres my two cents worth.
first shot placement- yes it matters no matter the cal

second larger cal bigger the margin for error as far as ammo is the same type but lets get real when it comes to 9mm vs 45 the larger round is minimal this is where the mass enters the arena

third i own both 9mm and 45 acp recoil is easer for the 9mm hence the reason it is so popular for self defense i prefer the 45 it's a mater of choice

now my last thought to borrow a line from robin willams if i may
no size souldnt matter and wemon tell us it dosent (care to guess what he was talking about??? ok thats my attempt at humor)but as mr willams so wonderfully put it "it takes a looooong time to get to england in a row boat
so i will take the larger size and make it faster hence i will use my 45 if possable.
 
Let's just put this to rest right now - everybody switch over to compact single-stack .50GI or .50AE. Voila - caliber wars are over.

(Until we start the great .50AE/GI vs. .500 S&W debate...) :banghead:
 
I happen to like the 9mm cartridge. I have 6 guns chambered for it a Glock19, Bertta 92, Sig P226, Ruger P95, Ruger Carbine, and the Beretta Cx4 Storm. All of these guns are great as well as the 9mm now iI know people can argue its underpowered and all that but, as much as I hate to say what everone else is saying it does come down to shot placement. It is also a lot eaiser to practice with the 9mm because of its cheap ammo so like Bartholomew Roberts said you will be more likley to make that one shot stop if needed. But to each his own and I know plenty of guys who dont like the 9mm so really you should pick what you like regardless of caliber then youll be more likley to practice with it and be ready to use it if the need should ever arise. But hey thats just my2 cents.
 
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