Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
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jamz
Member
You forgot "slow"
jamz likes .38 and .45 but doesn't feel unarmed with 9mm hp
jamz likes .38 and .45 but doesn't feel unarmed with 9mm hp
LightningJoe
Member
Cookekdjr:
OK. Since your data is so unambiguous, why is there debate? Is everyone else just ignorant? That's conceivable, I guess. If you documented all this, then write a paper. Col Cooper will sign off on it, I suspect (if you leave out the part about the .40 S&W which everybody knows is a "goofy" cartridge). I would genuinely prefer that it were so simple. Maybe it is. Write your paper and the rest of us can stop pointlessly discussing the subject.
OK. Since your data is so unambiguous, why is there debate? Is everyone else just ignorant? That's conceivable, I guess. If you documented all this, then write a paper. Col Cooper will sign off on it, I suspect (if you leave out the part about the .40 S&W which everybody knows is a "goofy" cartridge). I would genuinely prefer that it were so simple. Maybe it is. Write your paper and the rest of us can stop pointlessly discussing the subject.
orionengnr
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- 5,716
I posted on that thread pretty early on.
My observation/question was:
Eight autopsies per day? Just shy of three thousand per year? Do the math. How many people die of GSW in all of the USA each year, let alone Georgia?
Someone later in the thread posted a link to some CDC mortality data, and I'll simply leave it at this--the numbers don't add up.
Of course, everyone pretty much ignored that...
My observation/question was:
Eight autopsies per day? Just shy of three thousand per year? Do the math. How many people die of GSW in all of the USA each year, let alone Georgia?
Someone later in the thread posted a link to some CDC mortality data, and I'll simply leave it at this--the numbers don't add up.
Of course, everyone pretty much ignored that...
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
DO all autopsies result from violent demises?
The rule of thumb is no. Autopsies are called for if someone dies of unknown or unattributable causes (i.e. not being treated for a potentially lethal condition or is not elderly). If a doctor or the treating physician can reasonably determine the cause of death without an autopsy, then it may not be performed.
Cookekdjr:
OK. Since your data is so unambiguous, why is there debate? Is everyone else just ignorant? That's conceivable, I guess. If you documented all this, then write a paper. Col Cooper will sign off on it, I suspect (if you leave out the part about the .40 S&W which everybody knows is a "goofy" cartridge). I would genuinely prefer that it were so simple. Maybe it is. Write your paper and the rest of us can stop pointlessly discussing the subject.
Why the debate? Well it doesn't sell much ammo for CCI to admit most 9mm ammo is ineffective. And the 9mm is here to stay, thanks to NATO.
I'm not a writer. I'm a prosecutor who spends too much time on the internet when he's put on hold. And I thought some folks might like to share the benefit of my observations.
Now back to work. I've got some trials coming up.
-David
OK. Since your data is so unambiguous, why is there debate? Is everyone else just ignorant? That's conceivable, I guess. If you documented all this, then write a paper. Col Cooper will sign off on it, I suspect (if you leave out the part about the .40 S&W which everybody knows is a "goofy" cartridge). I would genuinely prefer that it were so simple. Maybe it is. Write your paper and the rest of us can stop pointlessly discussing the subject.
Why the debate? Well it doesn't sell much ammo for CCI to admit most 9mm ammo is ineffective. And the 9mm is here to stay, thanks to NATO.
I'm not a writer. I'm a prosecutor who spends too much time on the internet when he's put on hold.
And I thought some folks might like to share the benefit of my observations. Now back to work. I've got some trials coming up.
-David
Dravur
Member
Checkman.....
<Quote> I've been a cop for six years now in a city of approximately 40,000 people. I've seen dead people shot with 25 acp, 9mm, 40 caliber, 45 acp and a 410 slug </Quote>
Wow, someone REALLY didn't like this person.....
<Quote> I've been a cop for six years now in a city of approximately 40,000 people. I've seen dead people shot with 25 acp, 9mm, 40 caliber, 45 acp and a 410 slug </Quote>
Wow, someone REALLY didn't like this person.....
I posted on that thread pretty early on.
My observation/question was:
Eight autopsies per day? Just shy of three thousand per year? Do the math. How many people die of GSW in all of the USA each year, let alone Georgia?
Someone later in the thread posted a link to some CDC mortality data, and I'll simply leave it at this--the numbers don't add up.
Of course, everyone pretty much ignored that...
orionengnr,
I don't know the exact numbers, but Atlanta (city limits, less than a tenth of the metro area) averages about 180 "official" homicides a year. Most are by gunshot. The thing is, many killings are not reported a homicides. The police are the ones who categorize them, and lets just say the brass has an interest in under-reporting them or categorizing them as something else.
There are several ME's offices in or just outside Atlanta. One is the GBI's, and they handle homicides from all over the state. Its very possible that they have over a thousand homicides a year (this is my off-the-cuff estimate; i could probably call a source and find out the exact number).
Anyway, Deadmeat2 is out of town this week according to a post at the S&W forum. I left him a message to e-mail me. When he gets back, I can verify his ID, facts and figures really easily.
-David
My observation/question was:
Eight autopsies per day? Just shy of three thousand per year? Do the math. How many people die of GSW in all of the USA each year, let alone Georgia?
Someone later in the thread posted a link to some CDC mortality data, and I'll simply leave it at this--the numbers don't add up.
Of course, everyone pretty much ignored that...
orionengnr,
I don't know the exact numbers, but Atlanta (city limits, less than a tenth of the metro area) averages about 180 "official" homicides a year. Most are by gunshot. The thing is, many killings are not reported a homicides. The police are the ones who categorize them, and lets just say the brass has an interest in under-reporting them or categorizing them as something else.
There are several ME's offices in or just outside Atlanta. One is the GBI's, and they handle homicides from all over the state. Its very possible that they have over a thousand homicides a year (this is my off-the-cuff estimate; i could probably call a source and find out the exact number).
Anyway, Deadmeat2 is out of town this week according to a post at the S&W forum. I left him a message to e-mail me. When he gets back, I can verify his ID, facts and figures really easily.
-David
Total gun deaths for the nation are in the neighborhood of 30,000. That includes accidents, suicides, homicides, you name it.
If you believe his numbers, he's seeing around 10% of ALL gun deaths in the nation.
Well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't actually come right out and say that ALL of his autopsies are gun deaths.
In 2003, there were 6,071 deaths in ALL of Fulton County GA (the county encompassing Atlanta). But not every death results in an autopsy--in fact, about 80% do not. That would mean roughly 1200 autopsies were done in all of Fulton County in 2003. This guy claims to do well over 2,000 in a year--about twice the total autopsies one would expect for the entire county.
Seems a stretch to me.
That and the fact (which I mentioned earlier) that he directly contradicts the nearly universally accepted fact that elastic tissue such as blood vessels are not damaged by temporary cavity.
If you believe his numbers, he's seeing around 10% of ALL gun deaths in the nation.
Well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't actually come right out and say that ALL of his autopsies are gun deaths.
In 2003, there were 6,071 deaths in ALL of Fulton County GA (the county encompassing Atlanta). But not every death results in an autopsy--in fact, about 80% do not. That would mean roughly 1200 autopsies were done in all of Fulton County in 2003. This guy claims to do well over 2,000 in a year--about twice the total autopsies one would expect for the entire county.
Seems a stretch to me.
That and the fact (which I mentioned earlier) that he directly contradicts the nearly universally accepted fact that elastic tissue such as blood vessels are not damaged by temporary cavity.
sgt127
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,113
Any street results from the cor bon 40SW 135gr load? As I recall, it screams out at about 1350 fps.
Biker
We issued that round for awhile. Worked pretty well on dogs. Worked well on unprotected targets. Had an Officer involved shooting. 16 rounds through the windshield of a van. Not a single round went through intact. The bad guy was peppered with chunks, fatally. There were pieces of the jacket stuck in the windshield. We went with the 180 GR Gold Dot after that. If you don't know what kind of barrier you MIGHT have to shoot through, I don't think the 135 is the best choice.
Biker
We issued that round for awhile. Worked pretty well on dogs. Worked well on unprotected targets. Had an Officer involved shooting. 16 rounds through the windshield of a van. Not a single round went through intact. The bad guy was peppered with chunks, fatally. There were pieces of the jacket stuck in the windshield. We went with the 180 GR Gold Dot after that. If you don't know what kind of barrier you MIGHT have to shoot through, I don't think the 135 is the best choice.
Thanks for the info, sgt127. I've been carrying Fed 180gr HydroShoks since I bought my G23 in the early 90s. I've always favored heavy bullets but that 135gr beast sounded promising.
Guess I'll stay with the ol' tried and true.
Biker
Guess I'll stay with the ol' tried and true.
Biker
gbran
Member
If it's all about shot placement........... why not carry a .17 caliber.
MachIVshooter
Member
.
well, my .17 Rem. pushes 25 grain pills right at 4,200 FPS. I'd trust that to get the job done
Deadmeat2 main point is if the bullet does not go in deep enought or bounces off of bone and misses heart or lung or spine the guy will require more hits. What he has saw was 40 and 45 cal bullets weight more and go deeper into the BG. This is generally a very good thing IMHO.
I carry both 9 and 40 cal guns depending on the needs. Good deep hits count!
I carry both 9 and 40 cal guns depending on the needs. Good deep hits count!
StrikeFire83
Member
I always find these threads funny. "My caliber can beat your caliber in fight." 
My father served in Nicaragua during the early years of the Sandinista government. His sidearm was a Browning Hi-Power. He cannot and does not discuss much of what happened there, and in most of the engagements he relied on an M16. Anybody who’s been in combat would tell you that a long gun IS the weapon to use if at all possible.
That said, the people he had cause to shoot with his Browning are still just as dead from the plane jane 9mm FMJ rounds now as they were 20 years ago. He’s said that it is always best to follow up COM shots with a headshot if you can.
I don’t feel unarmed with my Kahr K9. But maybe that’s just me.
My father served in Nicaragua during the early years of the Sandinista government. His sidearm was a Browning Hi-Power. He cannot and does not discuss much of what happened there, and in most of the engagements he relied on an M16. Anybody who’s been in combat would tell you that a long gun IS the weapon to use if at all possible.
That said, the people he had cause to shoot with his Browning are still just as dead from the plane jane 9mm FMJ rounds now as they were 20 years ago. He’s said that it is always best to follow up COM shots with a headshot if you can.
I don’t feel unarmed with my Kahr K9. But maybe that’s just me.
Dravur
Hahaha.
Okay you got me. I've seen different people killed by those various calibers.
In the case of the 9mm victim it was a FMJ 115 grain Wolf round. Entered at the base of his spine, traveled all the way up his back and stopped by his heart. It never struck any bone and he died from fluid around his heart. The coroner told me that basically his heart was crushed by the fluid build-up. I'm not a doctor so I'll take her work for it.
Hahaha.
Okay you got me. I've seen different people killed by those various calibers.
In the case of the 9mm victim it was a FMJ 115 grain Wolf round. Entered at the base of his spine, traveled all the way up his back and stopped by his heart. It never struck any bone and he died from fluid around his heart. The coroner told me that basically his heart was crushed by the fluid build-up. I'm not a doctor so I'll take her work for it.
Total gun deaths for the nation are in the neighborhood of 30,000. That includes accidents, suicides, homicides, you name it.
If you believe his numbers, he's seeing around 10% of ALL gun deaths in the nation.
Well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't actually come right out and say that ALL of his autopsies are gun deaths.
In 2003, there were 6,071 deaths in ALL of Fulton County GA (the county encompassing Atlanta). But not every death results in an autopsy--in fact, about 80% do not. That would mean roughly 1200 autopsies were done in all of Fulton County in 2003. This guy claims to do well over 2,000 in a year--about twice the total autopsies one would expect for the entire county.
Seems a stretch to me.
That and the fact (which I mentioned earlier) that he directly contradicts the nearly universally accepted fact that elastic tissue such as blood vessels are not damaged by temporary cavity.
John, if what I suspect about Deadmeat2 is correct, he works for the GBI lab. The GBI lab conducts autopsies for homicides for all over the state of Georgia, with the exception of certain areas of metro Atlanta. Fulton County homicides do not go there for autopsies. Fulton's homicides go to the Fulton County ME's office, which is where I viewed the autopsies I saw. Most of the time I viewed them by slideshow (they were switching from photo-slides to disc); the prosecutor usually views the photos of the autopsy with the doctor (ME) who conducted the autopsy. The average autopsy has about 100 photos, but sometimes there are more or less. I've had as few as 30-40, as many as 300 or close to it.
With regard to 8 autopsies a day, there is just no way that is correct. It may seem like 8 a day, but if you actually start counting, it just isn't the right number. However, a couple years ago, the GBI had a huge case where hundreds, and I do mean hundreds, of bodies were discovered in North West Georgia. This could have raised the GBI's average to about 8 a day, so in that sense it is is possible the average was raised to 8 a day for many months.
About the temporal cavity, that's a hard one. I've seen alot of gunshot wounds, but I need a doctor to tell me what is what alot of the time, and that's after seeing autopsies week after week for years. I'm just not gonna touch that one.
My best guess is, Deadmeat2 is for real, but he over-estimated the number of autopsies. I could be wrong.
By the way, good eye on the numbers. They did not make sense to me either.
-David
If you believe his numbers, he's seeing around 10% of ALL gun deaths in the nation.
Well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't actually come right out and say that ALL of his autopsies are gun deaths.
In 2003, there were 6,071 deaths in ALL of Fulton County GA (the county encompassing Atlanta). But not every death results in an autopsy--in fact, about 80% do not. That would mean roughly 1200 autopsies were done in all of Fulton County in 2003. This guy claims to do well over 2,000 in a year--about twice the total autopsies one would expect for the entire county.
Seems a stretch to me.
That and the fact (which I mentioned earlier) that he directly contradicts the nearly universally accepted fact that elastic tissue such as blood vessels are not damaged by temporary cavity.
John, if what I suspect about Deadmeat2 is correct, he works for the GBI lab. The GBI lab conducts autopsies for homicides for all over the state of Georgia, with the exception of certain areas of metro Atlanta. Fulton County homicides do not go there for autopsies. Fulton's homicides go to the Fulton County ME's office, which is where I viewed the autopsies I saw. Most of the time I viewed them by slideshow (they were switching from photo-slides to disc); the prosecutor usually views the photos of the autopsy with the doctor (ME) who conducted the autopsy. The average autopsy has about 100 photos, but sometimes there are more or less. I've had as few as 30-40, as many as 300 or close to it.
With regard to 8 autopsies a day, there is just no way that is correct. It may seem like 8 a day, but if you actually start counting, it just isn't the right number. However, a couple years ago, the GBI had a huge case where hundreds, and I do mean hundreds, of bodies were discovered in North West Georgia. This could have raised the GBI's average to about 8 a day, so in that sense it is is possible the average was raised to 8 a day for many months.
About the temporal cavity, that's a hard one. I've seen alot of gunshot wounds, but I need a doctor to tell me what is what alot of the time, and that's after seeing autopsies week after week for years. I'm just not gonna touch that one.
My best guess is, Deadmeat2 is for real, but he over-estimated the number of autopsies. I could be wrong.
By the way, good eye on the numbers. They did not make sense to me either.
-David
Yooper
Member
Terms like "stopping power" might be better applied to the target than the projectile, that is, the ability of the target to stop the bullet. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, it's all up to the target what happens next.
Velocity translates into time, the time necessary to bring the bullet to zero velocity. The faster the bullet travels, the longer it will take to "stop" it completely, given identical, non-expanding projectiles. In the case of expanding projectiles, the bullet is designed for a given velocity beyond which the penetration can be decreased with increasing velocity.
Mass also affects penetration, for identical velocities, the more massive bullet should penetrate further. The depth of target mass should reflect its ability to stop a bullet of a given mass.
I wish there were more in the way of definitive tests to put "power" into the proper perspective, a "method to the madness" rather than a "madness to the method".
Velocity translates into time, the time necessary to bring the bullet to zero velocity. The faster the bullet travels, the longer it will take to "stop" it completely, given identical, non-expanding projectiles. In the case of expanding projectiles, the bullet is designed for a given velocity beyond which the penetration can be decreased with increasing velocity.
Mass also affects penetration, for identical velocities, the more massive bullet should penetrate further. The depth of target mass should reflect its ability to stop a bullet of a given mass.
I wish there were more in the way of definitive tests to put "power" into the proper perspective, a "method to the madness" rather than a "madness to the method".
Supertac45
Member
Your right
Got to agree with Yooper on this.
Got to agree with Yooper on this.
tantrix
Member
I agree that in firearms, some cartridges perform better than others...marginally.
With handguns, unless you are packing a .44 Magnum, you aren't carrying a handcannon. 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, I own guns in all those calibers but I carry a G19 stoked with 15+1 Federal 147gr HST ammo. Why? Because I shoot over 300 rounds a week sometimes more through this G19. Since you are only as potent as your training, not your caliber, I know for a fact I am much more dangerous carrying my G19 in 9mm than my .40's, .45's or 10mm's.
The .22 has killed just as many people as the 9mm or any other caliber in street shootings, so saying a caliber is too "weak" to stop somebody is an idiotic statement coming from anyone...we all know better.
A crackhead pulls a gun on you during an attempted mugging, you pull your weapon and you shoot him 3 times in the chest with your .45ACP or whatever caliber...while stumbling backwards, he get off 1 shot and catches you in the head with his el cheapo .22 auto...you can almost bet you will be the one in the morgue and he could very well survive your 3 shots to his chest. It's happened before, many times.
I don't care WHAT caliber people carry, you have to train with it or it means nothing. If you can shoot one caliber or model handgun better than the other, you need to carry the one you're best with. In the end, thats what is going to save you.
With handguns, unless you are packing a .44 Magnum, you aren't carrying a handcannon. 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, I own guns in all those calibers but I carry a G19 stoked with 15+1 Federal 147gr HST ammo. Why? Because I shoot over 300 rounds a week sometimes more through this G19. Since you are only as potent as your training, not your caliber, I know for a fact I am much more dangerous carrying my G19 in 9mm than my .40's, .45's or 10mm's.
The .22 has killed just as many people as the 9mm or any other caliber in street shootings, so saying a caliber is too "weak" to stop somebody is an idiotic statement coming from anyone...we all know better.
A crackhead pulls a gun on you during an attempted mugging, you pull your weapon and you shoot him 3 times in the chest with your .45ACP or whatever caliber...while stumbling backwards, he get off 1 shot and catches you in the head with his el cheapo .22 auto...you can almost bet you will be the one in the morgue and he could very well survive your 3 shots to his chest. It's happened before, many times.
I don't care WHAT caliber people carry, you have to train with it or it means nothing. If you can shoot one caliber or model handgun better than the other, you need to carry the one you're best with. In the end, thats what is going to save you.
I trust and carry 9mms because I have tested fro myself what they can do compared to .40s&w and .45acp. After doing my own tests, I am fine with a 9mm because I don't see either the .40 or the .45 really giving me anything more. The .45 has it's advantages but it also has it's drawback, same goes with the 9mm. The .40 is the best middel of the road caliber but the problem is, I don't like .40s. I don't like the extra recoil or expense and I don't think it gives me anything that I can't get with the 9mm or the .45acp.
If I really had my choice, I would take a .45 that was as fast as a .357mag and would expand to 1" everytime. I would also like it to cost the same as 9mm ammo and not have any more recoil that 9mm either. As you can see, I am joking, we must all make our choice depending on what we feel we need and what works for us.
I know I can put two 9mms into a target about as fast as one .45acp. I practice double taps because I know the 9mm is not a 12ga. If I carried a .45acp, I would do double taps as well.
If I really had my choice, I would take a .45 that was as fast as a .357mag and would expand to 1" everytime. I would also like it to cost the same as 9mm ammo and not have any more recoil that 9mm either. As you can see, I am joking, we must all make our choice depending on what we feel we need and what works for us.
I know I can put two 9mms into a target about as fast as one .45acp. I practice double taps because I know the 9mm is not a 12ga. If I carried a .45acp, I would do double taps as well.
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