Mega Thread of Batoning Wisdom

[ArfinGreebly]

Edge Punishment

BTW, the only thing I ever battoned was a cuisinart kitchen clever thru some 1/2 frozen lobster tails - cuisinart clevers do not hold up well to battoning! It survived but the edge bent.

I have read that knots are very hard and if you want to break your knife while battoning try going thru a nice hard knot in the wood.

I took a chip out of an edge (butcher knife) trying to hack through the end of a bone. I was, what, 25 or 26 years old? Clueless.

Many years later, and much wiser, I was splitting firewood with a machete (Cold Steel, BTW), and I struck a knot. It took me more than an hour with a file to repair the damage to the edge. Knots are stubbornly unforgiving.

I quit using the machete for wood splitting and went to a Fiskars splitting axe. Yes, I know, it's against the rules to use a tool actually designed for the job, and I could get my man card pulled, but the splitting axe didn't care about knots, and laughed in their general direction.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Arfingreebly,



Thank you. That was a good start for the morning!

lobo sez:

I would suggest owning an axe then. And while working in the woods I would imagine you have more than a bowie knife with you.

Don't worry, I think I must have about twenty axes - Billnäs, Kellokoski and Fiskars.

What do you imagine there is in our forests that requires me to carry a bowie? No. I typically carry a opinel #8 in my pocket. That is quite enough, even for a longer stay. Come to think of it, I would not choose a bowie even if I had to stay in the woods for a year.

EDIT:

Timbokhan,

Also, while i am no huge fan of it, why the dislike? I mean, i agree that it is abusive, but isn't it better to know how to do a technique like this and never need than need it and not have the experience to do it? It's just something to add to the toolbox, not something to replace the whole set of tools.....

Because there is never really a need for it. There are always more elegant (faster, safer) ways of achieving the same result. And in an emergency the very last thing you want to do is risk breaking your only knife (or fingers). And it is a risk even if you have a busse. Wood can be very, very tough.

Also, in an emergency you will not have logs to split + typically there is no need to split firewood.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

If you take a look at woodworking tools, like the froe, adze, broadaxe, and drawknife, you can see dramatic differences between blade design, shape, and handle design for utility (the only thing that matters when shaping or working woods of various species).
A fixed blade knife just doesn't have what it takes to be good at paring sections of hard or softwoods.

Gotta side with Cold Steel here.

How'd this whole batoning thing get started anyway?

Never mind. I don't wanna know.

 

[lobo9er]

you guys are funny The bowie reference was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.

Don't worry, I think I must have about twenty axes

I wasnt to worried, I was confident you might have owned an axe of some sort.
I enjoy hatchets and axes too, at antique shops and garage sales it tough for me to walk by an old rusty one at a reasonable price to rehandle and give a nice edge to. For my excursions in the woods sometimes one of them follows depends if I am hiking in far. I usually leave the froe and the adze in the barn though.

 

[lobo9er]

How'd this whole batoning thing get started anyway?

It probably started when someone had a chunk of wood they wanted to be be smaller and all they had was a big knife and realized it was a fairly good solution to his or her problem.
If it was a case knife, or most other knife companies I wouldnt have gave it a 2nd thought. But its cold steel and they have the most rediculous videos, showing the majority of their products stabbing through things like car hoods. They advertise as the baddest thing around. If only Cold Steel knives came with the extra short black shorts featured in the videos! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grmevfb-8D8
I'm still searching for the a leather neck knife ad, but this an example of a typical cold steel video. This one might even be a bit toned down.

 

[JVoutilainen]

lobo:

It probably started when someone had a chunk of wood they wanted to be be smaller and all they had was a big knife and realized it was a fairly good solution to his or her problem.

I doubt it. This particular "problem" has been with us for thousands of years - as have solutions, and big knives. The need to bash through wood, cinder blocks, cars etc. with a knife is a fad of the late industrial age. Maybe because there is no need to preserve your tools anymore and the level of heroic medicine is high enough to save most fo...people from their mistakes.

There is a relatively straight forward (but negative) correlation involved here; as our survival/bushcraft/whatever skills get worse, the need for tougher tools grows only stronger.

You can't really blame coldsteel for the style they have chosen for their marketing videos. They want money, so, they are forced to make stuff that appeals for the 99%. Unfortunately that 99% does not have a clue most of the time. Harsh, yes, but also true.

---

Funny that I just mentioned our unstable power grid... it is kaput... again...

Oh well. Fire in the fireplace, candle light, some red wine, good food, excellent company. Life is good.

It also seems I will be making more firewood soon, as one 20m high pine in my backyard just snapped in half like a twig.

 

[JohnKSa]

Here's the ad for the Leatherneck.

http://www.coldsteel.com/leatherneck-sf.html

It's flat ground from top to bottom, creating a shallow "V" shaped cross section that has proven ideal for cutting slicing, and shearing through a wide variety of materials.​

They don't provide one of their torture videos with this ad, and the description, frankly, doesn't begin to give the impression that they believe this knife is a great choice for chopping or batoning.

Here's one that Cold Steel makes that sounds like it might be a better choice for folks who think they may need their knife to do that kind of duty.

http://www.coldsteel.com/trmashica.html

These very popular, time tested knives have been in our line for many years and are ideal for just about any mission. Made out of SK-5 High Carbon Steel, they are precision ground, heat treated and Mar Tempered in our state of the art factory in Taiwan to rival the strength, toughness, and edge retention of our famous Japanese swords.​

 

[conw]

So your rant is about a product you don't own???

I wonder if stirring the pot using a Cold Steel knife is abuse

 

[Gordon]

I think the Busse heavy duty knives ARE designed for such abuse. It has to do with blade design, hardening technique and steel selection. I don't like Busses that much as knives but they make good wood/concrete splitting devices if that is your bag. I will NOT be battoning
my Camp Defender when I get it, I have hatchets and mauls ect.
IMHO Cold Steel knives are not great knives, but they are (generally) good knives and the company is fair in it's policies.

 

[Slamfire]

How'd this whole batoning thing get started anyway?

First time I saw it, it was on a knife forum. There is the knife forum, lets call it “Badforums”, and the people there love to chop things with their knives. Based on the claims on how much time they spend in the woods, those busy beavers must have generators and satellite dishes with them in the woods as they are posting all the time. I have a mental image of these guys wacking trees, mail boxes, fences, as they skip their way from Jr High School on the way to the wilderness.

There are a few knives that work well as choppers, kukris’s and variants of machetes, but these are never as efficient for cutting as hatchets, axes, or saws. The Badforum “experts” are all the time posting pictures of the giant trees they have chopped down with their knifes. Viewers of this idiocy want to imitate these “experts” and the market has responded. There are all sorts of huge, heavy, fat, “knives” that chop well, but try using them to slice an apple. Or skin a squirrel, or cut the breast out of a dove.

I remember showing a Western Bowie to my old Boss, a WWII veteran. He said, “Imagine having to carry that thing!”. He humped 100 pound packs in the Pacific and at the end of the day, no one in their right mind wants to carry more than they have to.

In a real survival situation, one which you cannot drive to the grocery store, calories are important. Chopping trees with knives is extremely energy inefficient. You will burn more energy, a lot more energy, than if you were using a tomahawk, light axe, axe, or saw to gather your firewood. Calories, food are not an issue for obese Americans, but in many parts of the world, subsistence farming is common. For those unfortunates, if they burn more energy than they grow, they die of starvation.

 

[lobo9er]

There are all sorts of huge, heavy, fat, “knives” that chop well, but try using them to slice an apple. Or skin a squirrel, or cut the breast out of a dove.

true but I dont process dove with my kuk. I'm an avg. joe but I have been able to buy more than one knife in my time. I dont walk into the woods to baton wood all day to look tough either I personally think I would look tougher walking around with a splitting maul. In fact I dont split that much wood if at all while camping. I find it interesting there is so much hate for a technique. I also find it interesting that y'all sound like you think that people who admit to batoning through wood use this technique only. And furrther more use every knife they own in that fashion.

I have enjoyed the conversation, but I should have started off explaining my thoughts on the contrast between cold steel commercials vs their letter of discontent of the abuse of one of their blades.

no one in their right mind wants to carry more than they have to.

right so sometimes I bring a bigger knife instead of a hatchet as it is lighter. makes sense to me. And works with your philosphy.

Calories, food are not an issue for obese Americans, but in many parts of the world, subsistence farming is common.

I'm a fraid I dont see the correlation. And did I ever say anyone needs to cut down trees? But thanks for the critism of americans, I was about to tie on an extra donut before bed.

 

[lobo9er]

I don't like Busses that much as knives but they make good wood/concrete splitting devices if that is your bag.

I have to ask which busses you have looked at? Because a few look like they would make excellant knives. I wish I could say I owned one. so I dont have 1st hand expieriencehttp://bussecompanystore.com/sar-6le1777.jpg

 

[lobo9er]

Another pretty busse that might make a decent knife

 

[conw]

I have a mental image of these guys wacking trees, mail boxes, fences, as they skip their way from Jr High School on the way to the wilderness.

LOL!!!

This is so accurate it's hilarious.

If you read knife enthusiast forums long enough you begin to see a pattern emerging of imaginary function over substance. I mean it's cool by me to be into something, I've owned more knives than most and can't really point fingers...but you see people saying things like "I really need an indestructible chopper. I have a tiny gentleman's knife and a sturdy mid-sized folder, but I really can't get by without something that will do some serious chopping. Oh, and I want to test out the new [whatever] steel from [insert company here] to see if it's better than the stuff I currently use."

I mean to some extent this sort of person has driven market innovation, but it becomes very clear that the person's hobby IS knives, not using knives for other purposes...just, knives. And when you lose ALL context things get kind of goofy.

Kind of like Candlepowerforums. Those guys are awesome and no doubt I need to credit them for driving the demand that led to me being able to get a sub-$100 470 lumen pocket flashlight recently. But I SERIOUSLY saw a thread where a guy was polling people on the following question:

"I've been wanting a 2-cell thrower for a long time. I am debating whether I want a digitally controlled or current controlled light, though. The digital is slightly brighter but is only compatible with 1x18650, whereas the current controlled lets me use 2xCR123a as well."

And the most common response was "Get both - you know you want to anyway! "

I mean, the question is understandable if geeky...the answer stretches the previous boundaries of geekiness though.

 

[lobo9er]

"I've been wanting a 2-cell thrower for a long time. I am debating whether I want a digitally controlled or current controlled light, though. The digital is slightly brighter but is only compatible with 1x18650, whereas the current controlled lets me use 2xCR123a as well."

now where have I heard questions and answers like that, but pertaining to guns and knives that probably aren't necassary to ones survival?

I agree with Conwict. If it wasn't for some blokes pushing for rediculous strong knives, products like the BK2 might not have been available for 60 or so dollars. Again speaking about a product I dont own, I think the BK2 is a great size knife and is on my short list. Is it practical for every job, no. Could it be considered over kill, yes.

 

[Gordon]

Hey where is the spooge blade coating on dem Busse's ? They actually do look pretty and don't say "whack me" like all most all I've seen.

 

[lobo9er]

[You can't really blame coldsteel for the style they have chosen for their marketing videos. They want money, so, they are forced to make stuff that appeals for the 99%

I dont blame them for their marketing. I blame them for marketing Cold Steel to be the baddest dog on the block, and then calling out someone for abusing their blades. In My Humble Opinion the letter should have something more like.

Cold steel we will gladly replace the knife.... The Leather Neck particular design is for.... not for ... here are examples of our knives that will fit your purpose. we build the toughest knives.....thank you AND THANKY YOU for the FREE ADVERTISING ON YOURTUBE.[/
Not my business, but just my thoughts.

 

[JVoutilainen]

I dont blame them for their marketing. I blame them for marketing Cold Steel to be the baddest dog on the block...

 

[lobo9er]

Quote:
I dont blame them for their marketing. I blame them for marketing Cold Steel to be the baddest dog on the block...

you didnt finish the quote.....

marketing as the baddest ..... and then complaining about abusing their stuff

They market as if their stuff can take anything that can be thrown at them. And clearly Their actual warrant makes it clear they really can't.

 

[lobo9er]

Hey where is the spooge blade coating on dem Busse's ?

funny what you can see when ya look!

 

[JVoutilainen]

lobo,

I did not need to.

You are still notcomplainingcomplaining.

When was the last time you saw marketing that was simply matter-of-fact, and completely without hype?

Twist it, spin it, turn it around, but the facts* we have established remain. Coldsteel has acted in a responsible way, acknowledged the heat treat issue, replaced the product, and also clarified their stance on batoning for the customer. You don't think that is enough?

*a reminder; batoning is abuse and waste of your energy

 

[lobo9er]

*a reminder; batoning is abuse and waste of your energy

Agree to disagree. I have used the technique in various applications to know it woks. Do I sit around all day doing so, no. Batoned one Instance all summer, and there was no one to see how tuff I was, bummer. But I did pound my chest after for good measure just in case I was being spied on. I dont know what you do but it sounds like you spend alot of time in nature so I am sure you have your own system that works for you. I am hard on my stuff admittingly so. Wether its abusive is up to you, I would imagine you occasionally might be hard on your equipment to the point some may think its abuse.
sorta round in circle here.

Now if I broke the tip of my CS knife on my car hood would I recieve a brow beating letter? lol

 

[JShirley]

they are the sharpest knifes from the factory.

vynx, perhaps you meant to say, they are the sharpest knives from the factory you've owned. I will amend my earlier statement- and agree with you- that the Busse family would almost certainly NOT call batoning abuse, but then, I think they probably have the best warranty in the business. When they made a folder, they said, "This obviously can't be as strong as our fixed blades, so we'll say the warranty on these is whatever you (the customer) say it is."

John

 

[lobo9er]

Calories, food are not an issue for obese Americans, but in many parts of the world, subsistence farming is common.

LOL and where are you from again? I dont think we want to take cold steel or batoning to personal level. I'm thinking europe what ever part it is you are from has its share of social problems that really have nothing to do with this. And since batoning is calorie depleting I'm doubting anyone who practice such a technique would be obese.

 

[Slamfire]

I mean to some extent this sort of person has driven market innovation, but it becomes very clear that the person's hobby IS knives, not using knives for other purposes...just, knives. And when you lose ALL context things get kind of goofy.

An example of materialism for materialism sake. Hoarders buying expensive things and reinforcing each other’s additions.

Knife forums also reinforce brand loyalty for contributing brands and create hatred for non contributing brands. Cold Steel is not on Badforums and the owner encouraged hate of Cold Steel to run wild. Hate threads that ran a 1000 posts and more. The haters created a virtual religion of hate against Cold Steel.

Unfortunately it spills over to other forums.