Mega Thread of Batoning Wisdom

[JShirley]

Bah.

I personally haven't paid much attention to what folks on BF have said about Cold Steel. I don't like the company because they frequently rip off other folks' designs, and in an industry filled with personable people, Lynn Thompson ain't. As in, the man is just not really worth talking to. Personal experience...nothing to do with BF (where I usually only visit two forums, anyway. The head of one of those, is known for his outstanding business ethics. Also, both of those companies have sent me free knives. Just because).

You might have noticed that my very first comment in this thread said that I agreed with CS, and they seemed to have treated the customer very fairly.

John

 

[lobo9er]

Batoning

Am I the only guy on this forum that will admit to batoning wood with a knfe?
Does anyone else ever or have ever batoned in some fashion? what has been your expierences? Do you consider it to hard on a knife, or does that depend on the particular knife? Have you ever broken a knife?
If you do baton, what knife do you use or have used?

Any knife pics are alway appreciated

This isn't my exact knife just the picture from the website I ordered mine from. 6 inch american eagle kukri. This is the knife I baton with from time to time.

 

[Rail Driver]

I have and sometimes do use the method with my Colt Jungle Commander bowie. Any other knife I have is either too small or too thin to use that method.

I've broken a knife, but that was done getting back inside when my 2 yr old figured out how to lock me out while I was smoking a cigarette.

 

[Carl Levitian]

No, I have never batoned with a knife.

No, I would not ever consider it.

No, I have never broken a knife.

I never even carry a knife that I would consider batoning with.

As long as I have any folding saw, including the one on my Victorinox farmer, I just saw halfway through, and smack it against something saw cut down, to split it right down the grain.

Carl.

 

[PRM]

Another batoning thread???:

I figured this horse was beat enough this week.

 

[RaceM]

A lot depends on the knife. Once upon a time in Alaska my group was cold & wet, waiting for pickup, and we needed a fire ASAP. Took my Buck 110 folder & batoned some lumber for kindling (try finding a tree in the Aleutians when you want one). Screwed up the lock on the blade, but otherwise no breakage.

Since I've been making my own blades for about 30 years I make the big ones (over 5") to be able to stand up to that kind of use. Many will say you should be using an axe or a hatchet, but sometimes there just ain't one handy.

Whether a blade will stand up or not depends on blade thickness, material, and edge geometry. I wouldn't want to try batoning a chef's knife, but if that's all I had, you betcha.

 

[lobo9er]

Honestly I have never herad of Bad forums or BF until just now. I will check it out see what its all about though.

 

[JShirley]

I think BladeForums was meant.

 

[lobo9er]

O sometimes wires dont connect

 

[PastorAaron]

I think it depends on the situation. Ideally, I would never baton. Most survival situations are not ideal. Beating up my best survival tool is a hard decision, but if it's the knife or my life I choose my life every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[JVoutilainen]

lobo,

Agree to disagree.

Yes, I agree you have the right to split logs with a can opener and a bag of peanuts if you so desire. What I am not going to agree to is that it is wise, safe or necessary to ever do so.

I dont know what you do but it sounds like you spend alot of time in nature so I am sure you have your own system that works for you.

I am a carpenter, which means I know something about wood (+forests), and woodworking tools. Also, because I work with wood virtually every day I recognize good technique when I see it. Batoning does not fall into that category.

The "system" you are referring to is not my own, it is the system (with local variations) and I am only familiar with tiny proportion of it. Let me give you an example; the siberian hitch is not something I came up with, but I do use the knot when I am setting up a tarp. Tradition, you know.

As I have said many times; knock yourself out. You don't need my approval.

 

[Wolfebyte]

Never heard of "batoning" until recently.. I think that was by the interwebz as well..

only batoning I ever did was in ROTC with a 36" riot baton and later in law enforcement using a pr24 or asp

So, sorry, no, I would not use my knife to chop up a log. I will whittle a stick, or I will use an axe to make kindling..

 

[JVoutilainen]

Since there is now a dedicated batoning thread, would someone who finds the "technique" useful describe the circumstances in which it is absolutely necessary to use a knife that way. People keep saying it is for an "emergency", but what kind of emergency, exactly?

Please clarify. And go into detail.

 

[PastorAaron]

You know, I've been trying to envision the less than ideal scenario and all of the knives I would consider baton worthy that I own ride in a bob that also contains a saw and an ax...

 

[lobo9er]

My life didnt depend on it but all ground cover was pretty damp so in one instance I used a knife to break up some slightly bigger sticks that weren't soaked through. It worked. Would a saw or hatchet have worked , yep, but I had a knife and came out on top of that one. I'm not talking logs here either or chopping down any oaks. Generally speaking I frown on cutting down trees or shooting them. what did they ever do to us?

 

[Steel Talon]

My bush knife is a WWII USMC Corpsman Knife. It handles everything chopping cutting and splitting that I may need done when I'm hiking the back country fly fishing, and taking pictures for several days. (When I was a young man)

As for emergency batoning..What situation would you find yourself in that would require the need to split wood for survival? A Coffee emergency? There normally is plenty of kindle size fuel wood laying around for gather.

 

[lobo9er]

Yes, I agree you have the right to split logs with a can opener and a bag of peanuts if you so desire. What I am not going to agree to is that it is wise, safe or necessary to ever do so.

ok but my can opener and peanuts is a 1/4 inch piece of leaf spring steel. you dont have to agree that it is safe or wise. Nor do I have change my tune. Hence agree to disagree. I go camping and build fires and have been fairly successful so I too know a thing or two about wood (+forests). As far as carpenty goes it has little to do with this. Do you think I batoned wood work in my house? Or maybe I use saws and power tools also?

As I have said many times; knock yourself out. You don't need my approval.

Right, agree to disagree. Maybe its an American term. It means we dont have to agree. You think I'm wrong and I think you are wrong also, and we stay friends.

 

[lobo9er]

A Coffee emergency?

Those are nothing to joke about.

 

[lobo9er]

In a unexpected turn the moderator shows their might, turning two threads into one MEGA THREAD.

 

[TimboKhan]

Since there is now a dedicated batoning thread, would someone who finds the "technique" useful describe the circumstances in which it is absolutely necessary to use a knife that way. People keep saying it is for an "emergency", but what kind of emergency, exactly?

Please clarify. And go into detail.

For gods sake... We get it. You think batoning is dumb. For the most part, I agree with you. I don't know why you are on this crusade to put it down to the extent you are. It's a method to split wood. Is it better than an ax? No. Is it better than a chainsaw? No. Have you ever found the need to do it? No. Are there lots of wannabe Mountain Men out there doing it? Absolutely there are. Guess what? Matches, lighters and magnesium firestarters aren't as good as a propane blowtorch in starting a fire, and while I have 5 or 6 of those laying around I don't find it necessary or practical to carry one with me every where I go in the woods, just the same as I don't find it necessary or practical to carry an ax with me every time I wander into the woods.

I think what your missing out on is that not everyone carries a full compliment of cutting tools on them at all times. Your telling me you have never had to cut wood for some reason in the woods? You have always been able to make do with what you find on the ground? I am not nor have I advocated batoning as a primary method of cutting wood, but I can see the value in knowing how to do it just in case I have to.

Scenario: I get a little lost on a dayhike, and have to stay the night in the woods. I decide to build a simple little a-frame shelter to keep the wind off my back. I cannot find appropriate sticks on the ground and I didn't pack an ax on a dayhike, so I use my knife to baton (or, more accurately in this case, hack) off a couple of suitable branches. I then use that same knife to notch them as required. It's not as if it is rocket science to learn how to do this, and it's not like having the knowledge in your head makes you any less of a man.

 

[JVoutilainen]

lobo,

I understand perfectly what "agree to disagree" means, but the problem is that this is not a subjective issue. It is a fact that batoning is... well, you know by now. Meaning that this is not a matter of opinion. You are simply wrong in your claim that batoning is a valid technique you should master "just in case". Just look at the video... phft.

However, if you- and other big knife enthusiasts - want to continue batoning, or climbing the tree with you butt first... by all means. Have fun. Just don't say it is a matter of opinion whether batoning is valid, or not.

Timbokhan,

For gods sake... We get it.

Right, then I must have been talking to myself for the last couple of days?

You think batoning is dumb.

Yeah, I do. Most definitely.

I don't know why you are on this crusade to put it down to the extent you are

As I approach 40 I must be getting grumpy. But, what would you expect me to do? Give it up. Add to the prevalent "hey, everything goes" attitude? I don't think so.

Guess what? Matches, lighters and magnesium firestarters aren't as good as a propane blowtorch in starting a fire

Oh really. Come visit me in the dead of winter, when it is 40 below. Let's see you light a fire with that propane torch.

Moreover, a propane torch is a big hassle compared to old mans beard and magnesium. Add spruce or pine resin to the beard, and you have instant napalm, literally.

I think what your missing out on is that not everyone carries a full compliment of cutting tools on them at all times.

Am I saying that you should carry a full arsenal of cutting implements at all times? No. I have been specifically saying that if you know what you are doing you can manage with Opinel #8. You are the guys who say carrying something I consider to be a short sword around is somehow necessary.

Your telling me you have never had to cut wood for some reason in the woods? You have always been able to make do with what you find on the ground?

Yes, I am telling you that I have never had to chop or baton anything with a big knife in the woods, ever. I have used a saw, and an axe though, but on rare occation.

On the ground? Have you noticed that everything on the ground is usually wet. No, I don't typically use wood picked up from the ground... especially when I am starting a fire. It is much better to collect wood that is dry. Like dead spruce brances, or wood that is dead, but still standing. After you get a good fire going it is pretty much irrelevant what you throw in. And if your firewood is wet, you need to make the fire larger for it to burn well.

Oh, and at any stage, feel completely free to ignore anything and everything I say.

I am not nor have I advocated batoning as a primary method of cutting wood, but I can see the value in knowing how to do it just in case I have to.

Well, I don't see any value, except entertainment IF you are close to home. On a back country hike, forget it. You don't want to risk your knife, or your fingers, period.

So, yes, go ahead and indulge yourself on a dayhike, but please, don't advocate batoning as a valid bushcraft technique, because it is not.

 

[lobo9er]

Just don't say it is a matter of opinion whether batoning is valid, or not.

What isnt opinion is that it has worked for me. It seems you may have gotten grumpy or maybe a bit uppity not sure which. Your actually the only one chest thumping. Was my short story of starting a fire not good enough? I had no axe everything was wet and didnt have to hike around looking for dry stuff. Am I now a wanna be? Also my winters dont get 40 below 10 below sometimes but not 40 I cant compete with that so I guess you win.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

"One True Way'

Guys, are we having another one of those "one true way" arguments?

It is a fact that batoning is possible.

It is also a fact than an axe does a better job.

It is not a fact that a hiker or camper will always have an axe.

It is a matter of opinion (mine, anyway) that more knowledge is better than less knowledge, and that more skill(s) is better than less skill(s).

It is a fact that an axe and knife will weigh more than a knife (or axe) alone. For some people, this fact drives their opinion of how they should proceed.

I prefer to cut wood with a saw, an axe, or a heavy machete. That's a preference, not a natural law.

I'm not going to suggest or imply that someone who prefers to do it differently is somehow stupid. To do that, I would have to assume I know more about their circumstances and scenarios than they do, and that's simply not true.

I may not be able to conceive of a valid reason for someone else's choice, but that's as far as I'll go with that.

I'm old enough and been down enough road to realize that some of the things I "knew" as facts, simply weren't so.


Now, y'all can banter back and forth about your preferences and experiences and your opinions of others' preferences, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But if y'all begin declaring what you believe is going on in someone else's head as a matter of "fact," I do believe I'll take exception to that approach.

So let's park our omniscience and confine ourselves to the facts as we know them from our experience and our opinions and preferences expressed as such.

Play ball.

 

[Slamfire]

Well before the internet, as a Boy Scout I was taught how to make kindling for a fire by whittling with a pocket knife. The next step was to break dead branches with your hands and pile them around the kindling and put a match in the middle. If that did not work your best option was to use sterno on the kindling and that would get things going.

We were also taught how to use a hatchet to make kindling. Hatchets were very useful in pounding in tent stakes. You could cut up dead branches with a hatchet. I have no doubt that you could “batton” on the back of a hatchet if you absolutely needed to make shakes. The steel temper in hatchets is lower than knives due to the fact that they need to survive a lot of twisting and pounding. Hatchets are very useful and very tough.

There is a lot of utility in the combination of pocket knife and hatchet.

I remember a guy who had a Marine bolo knife. That was an impressive cutting tool, I suppose if you wanted a substitute cutting tool for a hatchet, that would work.

Wish I had gotten a Marine bolo knife when they were $10.00. Now the things are collectable.

 

[JVoutilainen]

lobo,

Yes, claiming to know a fact is considered uppity these days, because we have been conditioned that you have to be PC, and everyone must leave a conversation with a smile on their face - reassured that there are no facts in the world, only lifestyles. Not for me, thank you.

I have pointed out, as have others, that batoning can damage a knife. That is a fact recognized even by the proponents of batoning. If it can damage your knife it can cause injury. Also a fact. Therefore it is absolutely reasonable to say that batoning is NOT a valid technique for the bush. Moreover, I would like to see someone do that with their core temperature lowered and shivering... Edit: or maybe I would not, unless I had a first aid kit handy.

That said. All throughout this discussion I have recognized your (natural law) right to do as you please. Not in pleasant terms, I must admit. My apologies for that.


ArfinGreebly,

Guys, are we having another one of those "one true way" arguments?

No, this is one of those "one wrong way" arguments. I do recognize that there are various sound alternatives out there. Batoning not being one of them.


SlamFire1,

Well before the internet, as a Boy Scout I was taught how to make kindling for a fire by whittling with a pocket knife. The next step was to break dead branches with your hands and pile them around the kindling and put a match in the middle.

That is what they taught me, as well.