You could buy quite a few front-line systems until 1986. And if it weren't for the contractual requirements with the gov't (i.e. the corp. can't sell particular items without gov't approval), you could buy quite a few more even under the present restrictions.
Militia Raid
- Thread starter FM2Wildcat
- Start date
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You could buy quite a few front-line systems until 1986. And if it weren't for the contractual requirements with the gov't (i.e. the corp. can't sell particular items without gov't approval), you could buy quite a few more even under the present restrictions.
Marshall
Member
Absolutely. And why, when being raided, don't they use their arms to defend what they preach? I mean, they're are all about defending themselves from the Feds and we all know that they believe what they are doing is 100% legal and constitutional. I mean heck, if they don't use their arms when being seized, when would they use them and, what are they're arms really for since they don't use them for this purpose? For that matter, since they don't act on their beliefs, what is their purpose at all?
A militia is a potential terrorist group (terrorist is anyone who is not government, and is armed, and attempts to use violence for some political aim).
However, there is nothing wrong with someone being a member of a militia-like movement, if they don't cause any harm. (Except maybe scaring the **** out of some hikers in the woods).
Freedom? Right? What's not doing any harm shouldn't be banned?
If you don't agree, you should go visit my grandfather. A hardline communist, the likes of him you have never had in the US. Former paratrooper, used to be a good marksman (regularily won regional SMG/pistol events. Never owned a gun though). He would agree with you, that yes, that which isn't furthering the cause shouldn't be allowed.
Not sure about the state of US militias (never having seen the US first hand*), but being in a militia-like organization might be beneficial, if members perform military training (train small unit tactics, do P.E. together. Also such an organization could possibly get discounts... I suppose if someone wants to buy 100 000 rounds of ammo, it'll be cheaper than when you buy it in 1000 round batches. Economies of scale..
Not to mention that humans, by nature are herd animals, so they probably feel better off if they belong to a group.
I think it might be said that militia, like any organization, is a tool.
He who desires peace should prepare for war....?
Also, given the atomisation of present day western societies (most families are nuclear, people live apart from their parents, etc, etc, it's not bad if people associate more).
Fosbery
Member
I think it's terribly hypocritical to say that if the government can own guns, so can we, but that the government can organise itself and we can't.
I understand that a government cannot allow terrorist or revolutionary activity but that is not what militias are - at least, that's not what they should be. If some terrorist group is calling itself a militia that dosn't mean a militia is by definition a terrorist group.
Esentially an organised militia is a group of armed people who organise themselves before they need to. During Katrina I am sure neighbours banded together to protect each other. A militia is just preparing ahead so that if you ever need to work together, you all know the score.
I've never seen an organised militia (not in the US anyway) but I expct most of them are nutcases and a step away from terrorism but like I said, if they're terrorists then arrest them for that. There's nothing wrong with organising yourself.
I understand that a government cannot allow terrorist or revolutionary activity but that is not what militias are - at least, that's not what they should be. If some terrorist group is calling itself a militia that dosn't mean a militia is by definition a terrorist group.
Esentially an organised militia is a group of armed people who organise themselves before they need to. During Katrina I am sure neighbours banded together to protect each other. A militia is just preparing ahead so that if you ever need to work together, you all know the score.
I've never seen an organised militia (not in the US anyway) but I expct most of them are nutcases and a step away from terrorism but like I said, if they're terrorists then arrest them for that. There's nothing wrong with organising yourself.
Marshall
Member
I can accomplish that in a gun club, maybe even a sewing club.
I guess you're right. I guess joining the National Guard or one of the branches of the Armed Forces wouldn't do. The best training isn't there. Besides, be kind of like sleeping with the enemy.
My questions were rhetorical anyway, I wasn't really expecting an answer but I do appreciate your response.
Molon Labe,
For the record, I think an individual should be allowed to own any item of military hardware he can afford.
It's groups of armed individuals banding together to influence political discourse that I have a problem with.
You seem to have forgotten to answer my question about your unit's mission statement.
The American Army is the best trained in the world. I don't understand why it's not good enough for you guys.
Y.T. said,
The modern American militia movement is militarily insignificant. And the war they are preparing for seems to be against their lawfully elected government.
People who want to associate together in a miliary atmosphere can enlist in the real Army, join a historical re-enactment group, join the Military Vehicle Collectors Association or another organization devoted to collecting other types of militaria.
The modern militia movement in the US seeks to influence the political debate in this country by showing an armed presence in support of a certain point of view. Hmm let's see, what might some historical examples be? The SA breaking the windows in Jewish owned businesses in germany in the 1930s. Armed members of the SA marching in support of Nazi party initiatives. Members of the Red Guards destroying things from the decadent West in China under Mao. The Iranian Reovlutionary Guards seizing the American Embassy in November 1979. These are the kinds of things that happen when political views are backed up by armed auxilaries. There haven't been any activites like this by American militia groups yet. So far the more fringe elements of them have limited their crimes to bank and armored car robberies and random acts of disobediance like refusing to pay their property taxes, register their cars or secure drivers licenses for themselves.
I'd like each and every one of you who supports the modern militia movement to think about what will happen to RKBA in this country the first time one of these groups decides to mortar a police station or court house, take out a squad car with a rocket launcher or kindap and murder a local judge or political figure who has made a decision that finally crossed their self imposed line in the sand?
No one will take them seriously until they actually use violence to further their political agenda, but once they do it will be the biggest blow to individual RKBA this country ever saw. The National Firearms Act was in response to public outrage over the excesses of the bootlegger gangs fighting for control of the illegal alcohol trade. Can anyone imagine what the public outcry will be if they think they might be innocent victims in the next attack on a government facility?
Jeff
For the record, I think an individual should be allowed to own any item of military hardware he can afford.
It's groups of armed individuals banding together to influence political discourse that I have a problem with.
You seem to have forgotten to answer my question about your unit's mission statement.
The American Army is the best trained in the world. I don't understand why it's not good enough for you guys.
Y.T. said,
The modern American militia movement is militarily insignificant. And the war they are preparing for seems to be against their lawfully elected government.
People who want to associate together in a miliary atmosphere can enlist in the real Army, join a historical re-enactment group, join the Military Vehicle Collectors Association or another organization devoted to collecting other types of militaria.
The modern militia movement in the US seeks to influence the political debate in this country by showing an armed presence in support of a certain point of view. Hmm let's see, what might some historical examples be? The SA breaking the windows in Jewish owned businesses in germany in the 1930s. Armed members of the SA marching in support of Nazi party initiatives. Members of the Red Guards destroying things from the decadent West in China under Mao. The Iranian Reovlutionary Guards seizing the American Embassy in November 1979. These are the kinds of things that happen when political views are backed up by armed auxilaries. There haven't been any activites like this by American militia groups yet. So far the more fringe elements of them have limited their crimes to bank and armored car robberies and random acts of disobediance like refusing to pay their property taxes, register their cars or secure drivers licenses for themselves.
I'd like each and every one of you who supports the modern militia movement to think about what will happen to RKBA in this country the first time one of these groups decides to mortar a police station or court house, take out a squad car with a rocket launcher or kindap and murder a local judge or political figure who has made a decision that finally crossed their self imposed line in the sand?
No one will take them seriously until they actually use violence to further their political agenda, but once they do it will be the biggest blow to individual RKBA this country ever saw. The National Firearms Act was in response to public outrage over the excesses of the bootlegger gangs fighting for control of the illegal alcohol trade. Can anyone imagine what the public outcry will be if they think they might be innocent victims in the next attack on a government facility?
Jeff
Fosbery
Member
Gonna have to dispute that with you, mate
Fosbery,
I've worked with your 8th Bn, Light Infantry on an excahnge program. I agree that your army is the only one that comes close to us. As to who's better, we'll have to get together and discuss specifics over a pint or two of Guiness sometime.
Jeff
I've worked with your 8th Bn, Light Infantry on an excahnge program. I agree that your army is the only one that comes close to us. As to who's better, we'll have to get together and discuss specifics over a pint or two of Guiness sometime.
Jeff
Travis Lee
Member
Some of these posts sound dangerously close to: "everyone has the right to politically organize, lobby, and agitate politically EXCEPT us evil gun owners"
My political rights did not evaporate when I bought my first gun.
If "militias" are a Bad Thing, what legislation do some of you guys have in mind which would not unconstitutionally restrict a shooting club, a local gun rights organization, the NRA, an IPSC or IDPA event, or even a bunch of paintballers?
The Brownshirts in Germany would not have been so bold if their targets had been free to arm and organize. Why should THEY not have had that right?
I get very suspicious when so-called progun people are so eager to throw other gun folks under the bus.
If there was a place which needed a citizens militia, it was post Katrina NO, when police disappeared, or ignored the gangs in order to beat up old ladies in their kitchen.
--Travis--
My political rights did not evaporate when I bought my first gun.
If "militias" are a Bad Thing, what legislation do some of you guys have in mind which would not unconstitutionally restrict a shooting club, a local gun rights organization, the NRA, an IPSC or IDPA event, or even a bunch of paintballers?
The Brownshirts in Germany would not have been so bold if their targets had been free to arm and organize. Why should THEY not have had that right?
I get very suspicious when so-called progun people are so eager to throw other gun folks under the bus.
If there was a place which needed a citizens militia, it was post Katrina NO, when police disappeared, or ignored the gangs in order to beat up old ladies in their kitchen.
--Travis--
Travis Lee
Member
Reading problem here?
Were the Jews free to arm and organize in self defense?
--Travis--
Were the Jews free to arm and organize in self defense?
--Travis--
No reading problem. My point was that the Brownshirts were a militia of the Nazi Party. Militias can serve relatively benign or extremely nefarious purposes. I think that's one of the points being made in this thread. I'm sure the Brownshirts thought they were being good, patriotic citizens of the Fatherland.
I don't know that the Jew weren't free to arm and organize. Do you?
K
SnakeEater
Member
I agree that it is and should be illegal to conspire to overthrow a legally elected government. But many, maybe even the majority, of militias are not doing this. If a few guys wanna get together once a month to shoot, teach each other some new skills, and yes, maybe play GI Joe I don't see a problem with that. Who doesn't enjoy the company of like minded people?
I might not agree 100% with this guys militia "mission". I am however cheering him on in his challenge to our unconstitutional gun laws.
I might not agree 100% with this guys militia "mission". I am however cheering him on in his challenge to our unconstitutional gun laws.
Marshall
Member
Travis,
How do you actually make that statement? Do you honestly believe people on THR are suggesting that gun owners can't politically organize and lobby? In that same vain, do you not believe that the RKBA would not be better served doing so without appearing to be a bunch of government hating paranoid men hell bent on changing political will through use of their firearms and the stigma that comes with these backwoods militias?
No one here is suggesting that gun owners can't politically organize and lobby. We're suggesting that doing so under the veil of one of these so called militias is doing gun owners and the RKBA harm.
Personally, I love the backwoods. I have a lot of land in the country and I am all over that land enjoying the different firearms I have and I wish I could afford to enjoy many more that I don't have. I can train all I want, practice all I want, invite a few friends and have a ball now and then. But, the minute I put up a website like the one mentioned in the article, have my picture plastered on there with full auto weapons and start self proclaiming I am the leader of a militia, start recruiting members, espousing the use of force through firearms for my own political and religious views, I am begging for trouble and giving off an extremely negative impression for the world to see. And in that vain, yes, I would be hurting the RKBA in the USA. And, trying to accomplish the same thing secretly would probably be worse.
Marshall said
Ironically, it is the very existence of these militias themselves that jeopardize the political and cultural struggle to protect the legacy of RKBA. Unintentional as it may be, the public perception of militias is one of extremists with guns, not romantic Minutemen. With the daily papers filled with stories of school shootings and gang violence, we don't need to give J. Q. Public yet another reason to demand gun control.
K
Ironically, it is the very existence of these militias themselves that jeopardize the political and cultural struggle to protect the legacy of RKBA. Unintentional as it may be, the public perception of militias is one of extremists with guns, not romantic Minutemen. With the daily papers filled with stories of school shootings and gang violence, we don't need to give J. Q. Public yet another reason to demand gun control.
K
Hmm. Israelis? Turks (performed very well in Korean war)?
Public perception... (Americans are quite irrational .. I suppose most of them would agree that atheists/agnostics are wrong, and if you conducted a gallup poll, I bet you'll learn that a state full of atheists/agnostics would be, umm... evil, or unpleasant to live in. And then they go there on a vacation. (referring to Prague. <10% of its inhabitants believe in God).
Most people are pretty dumb, and it never ceases to amaze me why everyone has equal say when it comes to electing representatives.
Lawfully elected government? Cynics might say. "by corporations, for corporations"..
I am a bit familiar with the history.. they weren't. The SA was mostly a bunch of low-lifes, thugs, with some WWI veterans.
They clashed with communist militias .. until Nazis got to power and locked up everyone who smelled red.
Only the government can lawfully kill you. And propagate its religious / political views.
Tell me the NRA aren't armed individuals lawfully influencing political discourse.
But I suppose Jeff White is right... Militias should only be organised just before war, during an occupation and so on.
And even during war... provisions have to be in place to prevent militias from stealing at gunpoint. During WWII, in my country, some guerilla groups fighting against the Germans were unpopular due to that. (most were OK though).
Most Militias are not in it to overthrow the Gov't.....Only a few of the extreme (Stupid) radical militias have that agenda.
The Group I am a part of is more like a Survivalist group than anything. We are not just a group of men, but a group of families who have prepared together. What are we prepared for you ask???.......ANYTHING!!!!.....and why shouldn't we be prepared??....look at Katrina as an example.....
We get together and shoot (Firearm Training).....we get together and do primitive camping (Survival skills).....we also do other training like Land-Nav/Self Defense/etc.....One family has a farm so we all chip in for Cows/Pigs/Chickens.....We actually took a couple of hogs to slaughter just today.....We have gardens.....Its all about networking with others of like-mind and support each other and to have each other's back.
We are NOT in it to take over the Gov't.......not at all!!!!!!......We love our country and want to see it succeed in every endeavour.
AND......we have also networked with several other groups in our surrounding states.....They are NOT Anti-Gov't either.....They do the same thing we do like store food/water/provisions and prepare themselves for anything that might happen.
Do we have Guns and Ammo?????........YUP........are we prepared to use them?????.........YUP..........To defend our familes and our property.
If you call that a militia, so be it....but we are not like the militias ya'll keep talking about. We are not Anti-Gov't. We are just a bunch of regular people with a contingency plan.....Thats it....
GhostCat
The Group I am a part of is more like a Survivalist group than anything. We are not just a group of men, but a group of families who have prepared together. What are we prepared for you ask???.......ANYTHING!!!!.....and why shouldn't we be prepared??....look at Katrina as an example.....
We get together and shoot (Firearm Training).....we get together and do primitive camping (Survival skills).....we also do other training like Land-Nav/Self Defense/etc.....One family has a farm so we all chip in for Cows/Pigs/Chickens.....We actually took a couple of hogs to slaughter just today.....We have gardens.....Its all about networking with others of like-mind and support each other and to have each other's back.
We are NOT in it to take over the Gov't.......not at all!!!!!!......We love our country and want to see it succeed in every endeavour.
AND......we have also networked with several other groups in our surrounding states.....They are NOT Anti-Gov't either.....They do the same thing we do like store food/water/provisions and prepare themselves for anything that might happen.
Do we have Guns and Ammo?????........YUP........are we prepared to use them?????.........YUP..........To defend our familes and our property.
If you call that a militia, so be it....but we are not like the militias ya'll keep talking about. We are not Anti-Gov't. We are just a bunch of regular people with a contingency plan.....Thats it....
GhostCat
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sacp81170a
Member
Travis Lee said:
What about when the gun folks in question basically "jump in front of the bus" themselves? These guys were actually challenging the Feds to come and get them. The Feds did. I feel no need to jump in front of the bus to show my solidarity with them as gun owners. Stupid is as stupid does.
Ghostcat:
I have absolutely no problem with that. I wish more people would think like you. Part of surviving is remaining off the radar screen of anyone who might be able to impair your ability to survive unless absolutely necessary. That means you don't go picking fights with the authorities, which is, in a nutshell, what these guys were doing.
I have no problems with militias or people organizing themselves in case of an emergency (which is another way of saying "militia"). I do have a problem with groups who pretend to be militias when in fact they are politically motivated. That takes them one step too close to being terrorists for my taste.
The "unorganized militia" (meaning everyone capable of bearing arms) is useful for specific incidents like Katrina when the organized militia and law enforcement are unable to respond adequately *as long as they limit their activities to keeping the peace*. This is only right and natural. An "organized" group of the "unorganized" militia is an oxymoron.
What about when the gun folks in question basically "jump in front of the bus" themselves? These guys were actually challenging the Feds to come and get them. The Feds did. I feel no need to jump in front of the bus to show my solidarity with them as gun owners. Stupid is as stupid does.
Ghostcat:
I have absolutely no problem with that. I wish more people would think like you. Part of surviving is remaining off the radar screen of anyone who might be able to impair your ability to survive unless absolutely necessary. That means you don't go picking fights with the authorities, which is, in a nutshell, what these guys were doing.
I have no problems with militias or people organizing themselves in case of an emergency (which is another way of saying "militia"). I do have a problem with groups who pretend to be militias when in fact they are politically motivated. That takes them one step too close to being terrorists for my taste.
The "unorganized militia" (meaning everyone capable of bearing arms) is useful for specific incidents like Katrina when the organized militia and law enforcement are unable to respond adequately *as long as they limit their activities to keeping the peace*. This is only right and natural. An "organized" group of the "unorganized" militia is an oxymoron.
Marshall
Member
Where were all these Militia's during Katrina. I keep hearing it cited as an example but I don't remember reading anything about any Militia groups stepping in and protecting people and their property? Am I just unaware?
JohnBT
Member
How about starting a Neighborhood Watch Pistol Team?
www.2ampd.net/Articles/nwpt.htm
I think I'd rather have a Shotgun Team.
John
www.2ampd.net/Articles/nwpt.htm
I think I'd rather have a Shotgun Team.
John
FM2Wildcat
member
I salute you for doing so GhostCat!
IMHO isn't that what true local militias should be?
Neighbors, families and friends, trusted men, whom you've know your whole lives that can be trusted and counted on in a time of emergency.
Groups like these are who defended their neighborhoods and rural areas in the Katrina aftermath.
It's groups like these that kept Katrina from becoming an even more of a third world type mayhem than it already was.
When the have not's come for what the haves have, as in Katrina, these are the men that will help the authorities to keep your loved ones and property safe.
The media will never report these stories that came out of south Louisiana for obvious reasons.
IMHO isn't that what true local militias should be?
Neighbors, families and friends, trusted men, whom you've know your whole lives that can be trusted and counted on in a time of emergency.
Groups like these are who defended their neighborhoods and rural areas in the Katrina aftermath.
It's groups like these that kept Katrina from becoming an even more of a third world type mayhem than it already was.
When the have not's come for what the haves have, as in Katrina, these are the men that will help the authorities to keep your loved ones and property safe.
The media will never report these stories that came out of south Louisiana for obvious reasons.
The right to keep and bear arms is an individual right not a right only for the government.
HCON 179 IH
108th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. CON. RES. 179
Expressing the sense of Congress with respect to the Second Amendment.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
May 14, 2003
Mr. JOHN (for himself and Mr. STEARNS) submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
Expressing the sense of Congress with respect to the Second Amendment.
Whereas our forefathers developed a Bill of Rights to protect the rights of individuals;
Whereas the right to bear arms is a cornerstone of our individual freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution;
Whereas gun ownership is an integral part of our free society today; and
Whereas in the ruling of 5 December 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reaffirmed the Circuit Court's prior ruling in Hickman v. Block, 81 F. 3rd 98 (Ninth Cir. 1996) that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to own or possess arms: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That it is the sense of the Congress that the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States guarantees individuals the right to bear arms.
AND
S.397
Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEC. 2. FINDINGS; PURPOSES.
(a) Findings- Congress finds the following:
(1) The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
(2) The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the rights of individuals, including those who are not members of a militia or engaged in military service or training, to keep and bear arms.
and as for owning a cannon what is the problem? You should be allowed to wn anything you want as long as you can safeguard it. If you owned a nuclear bomb, for instance, as long as you could have armed guards around it 24 hours a day and keep in it in a secured concrete bunker fine. An extension of the NFA would probably be needed although it would be classified a "destructive Device"
HCON 179 IH
108th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. CON. RES. 179
Expressing the sense of Congress with respect to the Second Amendment.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
May 14, 2003
Mr. JOHN (for himself and Mr. STEARNS) submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
Expressing the sense of Congress with respect to the Second Amendment.
Whereas our forefathers developed a Bill of Rights to protect the rights of individuals;
Whereas the right to bear arms is a cornerstone of our individual freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution;
Whereas gun ownership is an integral part of our free society today; and
Whereas in the ruling of 5 December 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reaffirmed the Circuit Court's prior ruling in Hickman v. Block, 81 F. 3rd 98 (Ninth Cir. 1996) that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to own or possess arms: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That it is the sense of the Congress that the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States guarantees individuals the right to bear arms.
AND
S.397
Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEC. 2. FINDINGS; PURPOSES.
(a) Findings- Congress finds the following:
(1) The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
(2) The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the rights of individuals, including those who are not members of a militia or engaged in military service or training, to keep and bear arms.
and as for owning a cannon what is the problem? You should be allowed to wn anything you want as long as you can safeguard it. If you owned a nuclear bomb, for instance, as long as you could have armed guards around it 24 hours a day and keep in it in a secured concrete bunker fine. An extension of the NFA would probably be needed although it would be classified a "destructive Device"
FM2Wildcat
member
Mr Fincher was not arrested for owning a cannon. He was arrested for illegally manufacturing and distributing machine guns. As it turns out the only weapons that were confiscated were the machine guns and related parts. I have to assume that the cannon was confiscated in case any other members of the militia decided to get jiggy with it.
Look, I don't have a problem if you want a cannon, if that's what floats your boat go for it. The questions arise when said cannon is part of an armed politically motivated militia group.
If you want to start a new branch of the United States Armed Forces, be my guest, just make sure you dot your I's and cross your T's to avoid having a quarter million dollar bail.
Latest update,
FORT SMITH — A federal magistrate Monday agreed to release a Washington County militia leader on bond but imposed strict conditions after hearing the man might retaliate against the government.
A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent testified he’s worried militia leader Hollis Wayne Fincher won’t show up for trial if released on bond and that he might shoot at police who try to rearrest him.
“Mr. Fincher has made it clear he doesn’t recognize this court and [these ] proceedings as valid,” ATF agent Wade Vittitow said in U. S. District Court in Fort Smith. “He still has plenty of firearms in his possession; we only seized the ones that were illegal. He lives in a very rural area that’s difficult to approach, and if agents have to go back there, they’ll be unprotected.”
Fincher, 60, is lieutenant commander of the Militia of Washington County, a group with headquarters south of Fayetteville. He was arrested Wednesday in an ATF raid related to possession, manufacture and transfer of machine guns. He’s being held on a complaint claiming he was in possession of an illegal machine gun. No formal charges have been filed.
Magistrate Beverly Stites Jones wanted assurances Monday that Fincher has no plans to follow through on published talk of violence against the government.
Vittitow testified about writings Fincher posted on the militia’s Web site that say he feels federal agents who execute search warrants “are guilty of conspiracy to levy war.”
“I have a fear, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable,” Jones said. “I want to hear assurances that he doesn’t intend to follow through on any of this.”
Fincher didn’t speak at the hearing, but defense attorney David Dunagin said Fincher was only exercising free speech.
“There’s no evidence any of this goes beyond talk,” said Dunagin, who pointed out that Fincher doesn’t have a criminal record.
Jones set bond at $ 250, 000 with the conditions that Fincher be put on electronic home monitoring, surrender his guns and have no contact with the militia until after trial.
Fincher must live with one of his daughters and her husband, Kenneth and Connie Fields of Elkins, and place as bond collateral the deed to his 120-acre homestead on East Black Oak Road in Washington County.
After the hearing, Dunagin said Fincher was weighing the terms of the release.
“He said, ‘ Lord, if I sneeze wrong, they’ll take my land, ’” Dunagin said.
At the hearing, Vittitow testified that ATF began investigating Fincher after he was pictured cradling a machine gun in a March 18 newspaper article about the militia.
An ATF informant joined the militia, attending its Friday night meetings and gathering evidence that Fincher was distributing homemade, unregistered machine guns to group members, Vittitow said.
Possessing a machine gun is illegal unless it’s licensed in accordance with the National Firearms Act.
Agents seized 13 unregistered machine guns and three other guns when they raided Fincher’s home Wednesday, Vittitow said.
The ATF informant said there was violent talk at militia meetings this summer that Fincher, as the group’s leader, did nothing to quell, Vittitow said.
One militia member said “all judges should be woken up at 2 a. m. with a pistol stuffed in their mouth and have to see their kids tied up,” Vittitow said.
At meetings, Fincher spoke of “call-ups” where the militia would respond to attempts by the ATF to serve search warrants by shouting warnings, firing warning shots and then opening fire on agents, Vittitow said.
Vittitow said he believes Fincher is prone to violence.
“I think he’s willing to resort to it, but from a practical standpoint realizes he doesn’t have enough manpower,” he said.
Vittitow didn’t say how many people belong to the Washington County militia, but he said Fincher associated with a Madison County militia group over the summer and met with people trying to form a Carroll County militia.
Look, I don't have a problem if you want a cannon, if that's what floats your boat go for it. The questions arise when said cannon is part of an armed politically motivated militia group.
If you want to start a new branch of the United States Armed Forces, be my guest, just make sure you dot your I's and cross your T's to avoid having a quarter million dollar bail.
Latest update,
FORT SMITH — A federal magistrate Monday agreed to release a Washington County militia leader on bond but imposed strict conditions after hearing the man might retaliate against the government.
A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent testified he’s worried militia leader Hollis Wayne Fincher won’t show up for trial if released on bond and that he might shoot at police who try to rearrest him.
“Mr. Fincher has made it clear he doesn’t recognize this court and [these ] proceedings as valid,” ATF agent Wade Vittitow said in U. S. District Court in Fort Smith. “He still has plenty of firearms in his possession; we only seized the ones that were illegal. He lives in a very rural area that’s difficult to approach, and if agents have to go back there, they’ll be unprotected.”
Fincher, 60, is lieutenant commander of the Militia of Washington County, a group with headquarters south of Fayetteville. He was arrested Wednesday in an ATF raid related to possession, manufacture and transfer of machine guns. He’s being held on a complaint claiming he was in possession of an illegal machine gun. No formal charges have been filed.
Magistrate Beverly Stites Jones wanted assurances Monday that Fincher has no plans to follow through on published talk of violence against the government.
Vittitow testified about writings Fincher posted on the militia’s Web site that say he feels federal agents who execute search warrants “are guilty of conspiracy to levy war.”
“I have a fear, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable,” Jones said. “I want to hear assurances that he doesn’t intend to follow through on any of this.”
Fincher didn’t speak at the hearing, but defense attorney David Dunagin said Fincher was only exercising free speech.
“There’s no evidence any of this goes beyond talk,” said Dunagin, who pointed out that Fincher doesn’t have a criminal record.
Jones set bond at $ 250, 000 with the conditions that Fincher be put on electronic home monitoring, surrender his guns and have no contact with the militia until after trial.
Fincher must live with one of his daughters and her husband, Kenneth and Connie Fields of Elkins, and place as bond collateral the deed to his 120-acre homestead on East Black Oak Road in Washington County.
After the hearing, Dunagin said Fincher was weighing the terms of the release.
“He said, ‘ Lord, if I sneeze wrong, they’ll take my land, ’” Dunagin said.
At the hearing, Vittitow testified that ATF began investigating Fincher after he was pictured cradling a machine gun in a March 18 newspaper article about the militia.
An ATF informant joined the militia, attending its Friday night meetings and gathering evidence that Fincher was distributing homemade, unregistered machine guns to group members, Vittitow said.
Possessing a machine gun is illegal unless it’s licensed in accordance with the National Firearms Act.
Agents seized 13 unregistered machine guns and three other guns when they raided Fincher’s home Wednesday, Vittitow said.
The ATF informant said there was violent talk at militia meetings this summer that Fincher, as the group’s leader, did nothing to quell, Vittitow said.
One militia member said “all judges should be woken up at 2 a. m. with a pistol stuffed in their mouth and have to see their kids tied up,” Vittitow said.
At meetings, Fincher spoke of “call-ups” where the militia would respond to attempts by the ATF to serve search warrants by shouting warnings, firing warning shots and then opening fire on agents, Vittitow said.
Vittitow said he believes Fincher is prone to violence.
“I think he’s willing to resort to it, but from a practical standpoint realizes he doesn’t have enough manpower,” he said.
Vittitow didn’t say how many people belong to the Washington County militia, but he said Fincher associated with a Madison County militia group over the summer and met with people trying to form a Carroll County militia.
JohnBT
Member
"At the hearing, Vittitow testified that ATF began investigating Fincher after he was pictured cradling a machine gun in a March 18 newspaper article about the militia."
Now there's one smart cookie, huh? Smile and say cheese. How in the world did he ever make lieutenant commander? Was he one of the smartest ones?
John
Now there's one smart cookie, huh? Smile and say cheese. How in the world did he ever make lieutenant commander? Was he one of the smartest ones?
John
- Status
