B
BeLikeTrey
Guest
Do they have a State Guard?
maybe they could use them?
maybe they could use them?
The Next Waco?
- Thread starter oldfart
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The Real Mad Max
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- Joined
- May 24, 2004
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- 92
No.
What I see is another dumbass doing the wrong thing at the wrong time against the wrong dude. He shouldn't be suprised that the medicine he received didn't taste so good.
Devonai
Member
I've only read Ranch Rescue's web site, but it wouldn't surprise me if they put out a press release condemning Nethercott and Riddle and claiming they never knew about Nethercott's record. If they do not, any positive recognition they've built up (whether it be in the community or beyond) goes straight down the toilet.
spartacus2002
Member
Militarization of equipment is distinctly different from militarization of mindset.
I agree with that statement.
However, I don't agree with the spirit in which you wrote it. The equipment that LE agencies use may sometimes have some commonality with military equipment, yet the mindset does not.
When a SWAT team meats gun fire, they don't toss in a bunch of fragmentary grenades as they back out, and they don't call in artillery or TacAir to level the place. A military mindset would be, "We were fired on - kill them all." The LE mindset is, "Control the situation, attempt to resolve the situation with as little violence as possible, and only use deadly force if necessary."
This isn't just a hypothetical. We discussed a situation, on THR, a few weeks ago, where officers were serving a knock and announce warrant on a child porn trafficker. The subject of the warrant shot two officers killing one, and wounding another. Now if that were a military op, it would have been resolved quickly with tremendous firepower to kill the person inside. However, LE did the right thing by resolving the situation, and minimizing additional violence. Even though one of their guys had just been killed, they still got the guy out unhurt. Definitely NOT a military mindset.
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Old Dog
Member
Give me a break ...
stevelyn
Member
If you want to learn more about Ranch Rescue you can hear it from the horse's mouth. GOA's Larry Pratt interviewed Jack Foote founder of RR on "Live Fire" You can listen to the archived broadcast by going to the GOA website and following the link to the archives.
A month later he also interviewed Chris Simcox of Civil Homeland Defense, whose organization conducts similar activities, but is permanently located in Douglas(?) AZ. Folow the same links to listen to the archived broadcast.
Soldier of Fortune magazine also did a three part story on Ranch Rescue last year. One of their reporters volunteered for duty with RR in exchange for being able to tell the story. His first night out they intercepted a group of illegals smuggling 250 lbs. of marijuana.
I don't remember which issues they were published in, but I'll search through my stack and post the information later.
Bottom line is if the federal goobermint would do the job we pay them for organizations like RR and CHD wouldn't be necessary and ranchers wouldn't have to worry so much about the security and safeguarding of their property.
Edit to add: Ranch Rescue series run in April, May and June 2003 issues of Soldier of Fortune.
A month later he also interviewed Chris Simcox of Civil Homeland Defense, whose organization conducts similar activities, but is permanently located in Douglas(?) AZ. Folow the same links to listen to the archived broadcast.
Soldier of Fortune magazine also did a three part story on Ranch Rescue last year. One of their reporters volunteered for duty with RR in exchange for being able to tell the story. His first night out they intercepted a group of illegals smuggling 250 lbs. of marijuana.
I don't remember which issues they were published in, but I'll search through my stack and post the information later.
Bottom line is if the federal goobermint would do the job we pay them for organizations like RR and CHD wouldn't be necessary and ranchers wouldn't have to worry so much about the security and safeguarding of their property.
Edit to add: Ranch Rescue series run in April, May and June 2003 issues of Soldier of Fortune.
lostone1413
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- Jan 13, 2004
- Messages
- 447
RileyMc you hit the nail on the head! That is why we need Ranch Rescue. If you go near the border here in Arizona unless it is an illegal or a mexican you will see darn few say anything bad against Ranch Rescue. As far as him being a felon when they shot him anyone really think are goverment isn't above setting someone up. If you think it couldn't happen read about Waco or Ruby Ridge or the Cage units in the Chicago area. Maybe the illegal search up in Wisconsin.
Old Dog
Member
Someone's been watching too many Oliver Stone movies or old episodes of "The X-Files."
As though our law enforcement minions of the big bad government have so much time on their hands that they sit around dreaming up plots to go after all these small-time criminals ...
I have nothing against groups like Ranch Rescue; for all I know, they are performing a valuable service down there and have the support of most of the locals. But I also know that if a law enforcement agency is targeting a solo operator, they have a pretty extensive chain of command to go through to justify that effort -- and in the wake of Ruby Ridge and Waco (which no one in federal law enforcement circles will deny was pure cluster****), the oversight is incredible. Sure, there may be a handful of "rogue" cops or feds out there going it alone in the Wyatt Earp mode and doing their own thing, but to suggest organized government involvement is pretty silly.
lostone1413
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- Jan 13, 2004
- Messages
- 447
I guess you would look at it as being silly depending on what side of the badge you are on. Read like www.keepand bear arms.com or www.amren.com They reprint stories from all around the country and world. You even see what paper it was printed in. Soon you will see things like this are not uncommon at all. Watco Ruby Ridgy not a goverment setup? Give me a break
2nd Amendment
member
Give me a break ...
That is the kind of response I'll never understand. If you have nothing to say then why say something so pointless? I don't have to give you a break. You need to educate yourself. These are the kind of things drummed into the heads of young cops at academies and training seminars. That they are a "New Class". A "Cut Above". That society hinges on them for its very existence. That "average people" can't control themselves without the constant sword of LE over their heads to maintain "discipline". It leads to the kind of attitude that is increasingly alienating police from the Citizenry to whome they SHOULD answer at all times.
If you are unaware of this sort of "indoctrination" then I'd suggest you get out and learn somethingn and save the empty and meaningless attempts at witticism for someone who cares.
That is the kind of response I'll never understand. If you have nothing to say then why say something so pointless? I don't have to give you a break. You need to educate yourself. These are the kind of things drummed into the heads of young cops at academies and training seminars. That they are a "New Class". A "Cut Above". That society hinges on them for its very existence. That "average people" can't control themselves without the constant sword of LE over their heads to maintain "discipline". It leads to the kind of attitude that is increasingly alienating police from the Citizenry to whome they SHOULD answer at all times.
If you are unaware of this sort of "indoctrination" then I'd suggest you get out and learn somethingn and save the empty and meaningless attempts at witticism for someone who cares.
Old Dog
Member
Have you been through a police academy? Where? Have you talked at length with instructors at a police academy? Reviewed the syllabus and curriculum at your regional academy? Do you have close friends and/or family who are police officers?
I have, in fact, educated myself (and been educated by others) on these matters. And, by the way, I wasn't attempting to be witty.
I have, in fact, educated myself (and been educated by others) on these matters. And, by the way, I wasn't attempting to be witty.
Gee.
I must have missed those classes.
I'll assume that you have not gone through LEO training (based upon your current and past comments). I'll also assume that you will ignore the statements of those who have gone through LEO training (based upon your current and past comments) in favor of your own opinion, formed by your limited experiences (obvioulsy negative ones, I'll allow) and media exposure- which has always highlighted the exceptions rather than the rule, for gun-toters on both sides of the badge.
While I'll freely admit that there are some yahoos on my side of the badge doing everything to widen the chasm between citizens and cops, I'll note that you, personally, are doing a whole lot of shovelling as well.
Mike
I must have missed those classes.
I'll assume that you have not gone through LEO training (based upon your current and past comments). I'll also assume that you will ignore the statements of those who have gone through LEO training (based upon your current and past comments) in favor of your own opinion, formed by your limited experiences (obvioulsy negative ones, I'll allow) and media exposure- which has always highlighted the exceptions rather than the rule, for gun-toters on both sides of the badge.
While I'll freely admit that there are some yahoos on my side of the badge doing everything to widen the chasm between citizens and cops, I'll note that you, personally, are doing a whole lot of shovelling as well.
Mike
Old Dog
Member
Coronach, thank you! You said everything I forgot to say.
2nd Amendment
member
Sorry, Dog, but the answer to your question is a general yes. Remember, never underestimate your enemy.
Coronach, before responding to you I need a link that I simply can not find, yet. But I can say do yourself a favor...never assume anything. You'll be generally wrong...except about my dismissing the statements of those who claim to be LEO on a message board on the internet. At least if those statements disagree with people I know in the real world I'll dismiss them. My comments above are based on their words, primarily, but there's a link(two really), that I need before I even try to pursue this farther.
Coronach, before responding to you I need a link that I simply can not find, yet. But I can say do yourself a favor...never assume anything. You'll be generally wrong...except about my dismissing the statements of those who claim to be LEO on a message board on the internet. At least if those statements disagree with people I know in the real world I'll dismiss them. My comments above are based on their words, primarily, but there's a link(two really), that I need before I even try to pursue this farther.
Old Dog
Member
2A, we're enemies? Sorry to hear that ... I thought we were simply disagreeing ...
2A, you need to go to school. Really, go study the history of police management in the United States. Your arguments are at least 50 years out of date if not more. Paramilitary police management went the way of the hippy back in the 60's. Now just like hippies, I am sure there are still a few old school coppers around. But to make the generalization that modern American police agencies are becoming more military does'nt jibe with reality. I can only say that there is no research that supports your assertion.
I am a police academy administrator. Your version of reality does'nt coincide with anything I see or do on a daily basis.
I am a police academy administrator. Your version of reality does'nt coincide with anything I see or do on a daily basis.
2nd Amendment
member
Dog, a turn of phrase...
Sendec, YOU are the primary member here that I think of when knee-jerk defense of LE antics comes up in discussion. And I LOVE people telling me things I should do. Last time someone did that I went through and gave him a detailed list. I'm still waiting to hear back on what HE did or does "for the cause".
Your claim of militarization, I am certain, refers to the military style command structure of as late as the mid-70's, where an order was an order to be obeyed and personal initiative was discouraged if not outright forbidden. Yeah, it's been replaced(and it never even existed "everywhere"). That's not the topic here. The topic is visible militarization. Not how the cops deal with each other "in-house" but how they deal with the people. How they present themselves. How force is applied, etc. And how they are guided while becoming cops. That's the point about how they are told today they are the glue of society. Not even so much shepherds as zoo-keepers.
That doesn't sound familar to you? Well I'll keep my opinions of that to myself. The links I wanted were from a couple different sources, one of them familar to many here, that confirmed this sort of thing from people who are directly involved. Fortunately for some I can't find the info again or they might have to restate what coincides with what. But hey, it's a big 'net and I still got all day...
Sendec, YOU are the primary member here that I think of when knee-jerk defense of LE antics comes up in discussion. And I LOVE people telling me things I should do. Last time someone did that I went through and gave him a detailed list. I'm still waiting to hear back on what HE did or does "for the cause".
Your claim of militarization, I am certain, refers to the military style command structure of as late as the mid-70's, where an order was an order to be obeyed and personal initiative was discouraged if not outright forbidden. Yeah, it's been replaced(and it never even existed "everywhere"). That's not the topic here. The topic is visible militarization. Not how the cops deal with each other "in-house" but how they deal with the people. How they present themselves. How force is applied, etc. And how they are guided while becoming cops. That's the point about how they are told today they are the glue of society. Not even so much shepherds as zoo-keepers.
That doesn't sound familar to you? Well I'll keep my opinions of that to myself. The links I wanted were from a couple different sources, one of them familar to many here, that confirmed this sort of thing from people who are directly involved. Fortunately for some I can't find the info again or they might have to restate what coincides with what. But hey, it's a big 'net and I still got all day...
Well I went through my LE training with the feds, who are much villified here, and I'm sure many feel have the most militarized approach to LE.
However, I was never told I was the "glue of society." I would have fallen down laughing if anyone in LE ever said that to me, whether in training or out on the job. I was never told I was better than anyone else, or that I was the "New Class" or a "Cut Above." Quite the opposite, there were frequent reminders that the badge and credentials didn't make us better than anyone else, and to avoid that kind of thinking.
I was repeatedly reminded that I had to respect the rights of everyone, including the guy that just tried to fight and kill me when it came time to arrest him. I was repeatedly reminded that I was there to uphold the law, protect everyone's rights, ESPECIALLY the accused. It was emphasized that I had to bend over backwards to make sure I did everything the right way, maintain professionalism, and to only use the minimum amount of force necessary in cases where force was required.
Those of us that had a military background, were repeatedly reminded that we had to be sure we had the proper mindset about the job, and not to have a military mindset. Imagine that, instructors actually discouraging a military style mindset to LE. However, I'm sure you don't believe that to be true. It's true, but it doesn't fit your preconcieved notion, or some BS that you claim is proof, from some link you can't find.
Oh, sendec, Coronach, Old Dog,and I are so "fortunate" you can't find those links.
Also, I will say the rank structure BS you are projecting onto sendec's comments is pure BS. Most LE agencies still maintain the same traditional rank structure, and courtesies to senior officers. However, what has changed is in fact the mindset in LE. That is what sendec was referring to with the hippie comparison.
I know you won't believe it, but that is what is going on. However, I'm sure you have a friend who has a friend who became a cop, and he will confirm all your theories, and he is the one good cop trying to change things from the inside. Something like that, because that is always how it works, people claim to have a friend or friend of a friend in LE, who is the one good guy working for change, while exposing the conspiracy within LE. 
However, I was never told I was the "glue of society." I would have fallen down laughing if anyone in LE ever said that to me, whether in training or out on the job. I was never told I was better than anyone else, or that I was the "New Class" or a "Cut Above." Quite the opposite, there were frequent reminders that the badge and credentials didn't make us better than anyone else, and to avoid that kind of thinking.
I was repeatedly reminded that I had to respect the rights of everyone, including the guy that just tried to fight and kill me when it came time to arrest him. I was repeatedly reminded that I was there to uphold the law, protect everyone's rights, ESPECIALLY the accused. It was emphasized that I had to bend over backwards to make sure I did everything the right way, maintain professionalism, and to only use the minimum amount of force necessary in cases where force was required.
Those of us that had a military background, were repeatedly reminded that we had to be sure we had the proper mindset about the job, and not to have a military mindset. Imagine that, instructors actually discouraging a military style mindset to LE. However, I'm sure you don't believe that to be true. It's true, but it doesn't fit your preconcieved notion, or some BS that you claim is proof, from some link you can't find.
Oh, sendec, Coronach, Old Dog,and I are so "fortunate" you can't find those links.
Also, I will say the rank structure BS you are projecting onto sendec's comments is pure BS. Most LE agencies still maintain the same traditional rank structure, and courtesies to senior officers. However, what has changed is in fact the mindset in LE. That is what sendec was referring to with the hippie comparison.
I know you won't believe it, but that is what is going on. However, I'm sure you have a friend who has a friend who became a cop, and he will confirm all your theories, and he is the one good cop trying to change things from the inside. Something like that, because that is always how it works, people claim to have a friend or friend of a friend in LE, who is the one good guy working for change, while exposing the conspiracy within LE.
mercedesrules
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,010
Ranch Rescue won't get my sympathy if they are also wannabe drug warriors. Protecting private property and arresting "smugglers" are opposites. They are a mixed-up group.
On the one hand they are saying, "Don't come onto this man's land." and on the other they are saying, "Gimme what's in that suitcase."
Instead of surfing the 'net
looking for links how about reading some of the works of Robert Peel, August Vollmer, and O.W. Wilson? They set the foundation for the profession of law enforcement within the London Metropolitan Police and the Berkley Reform movement.
Some of us do this for a living - we 'think" about how policing can be done better. Then we do "research"....
Oh, never mind, it's not reality, only the net.......
looking for links how about reading some of the works of Robert Peel, August Vollmer, and O.W. Wilson? They set the foundation for the profession of law enforcement within the London Metropolitan Police and the Berkley Reform movement.
Some of us do this for a living - we 'think" about how policing can be done better. Then we do "research"....
Oh, never mind, it's not reality, only the net.......
joe sixpack
Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His first night out they intercepted a group of illegals smuggling 250 lbs. of marijuana.
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Posted by MR:
Ranch Rescue won't get my sympathy if they are also wannabe drug warriors. Protecting private property and arresting "smugglers" are opposites. They are a mixed-up group.
On the one hand they are saying, "Don't come onto this man's land." and on the other they are saying, "Gimme what's in that suitcase."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So they should've let the illegals go cause they were smuggling dope?
The following is an excerpt from the recent Time magazine article on illegal
immigration. I've only copied the section here dealing with the ranchers
and towns next to the border that details their problems:
++++++
Living in the War Zone
When the crowds cross the ranches along and near the border, they discard backpacks, empty Gatorade and water bottles and soiled clothes. They turn the land into a vast latrine, leaving behind revolting mounds of personal refuse and enough discarded plastic bags to stock a Wal-Mart. Night after night, they cut fences intended to hold in cattle and horses. Cows that eat the bags must often be killed because the plastic becomes lodged between the first and second stomachs. The immigrants steal vehicles and saddles. They poison dogs to quiet them. The illegal traffic is so heavy that some ranchers, because of the disruptions and noise, get very little sleep at night.
John Ladd Jr., a thoughtful, soft-spoken rancher just outside Bisbee, gives new meaning to the word stoic. He is forced to work the equivalent of several weeks a year to repair, as best he can, all the damage done to his property by never-ending swarms of illegal aliens. "Patience is my forte," he says, "but it's getting lower." The 14,000-acre Ladd ranch, in his mother's family since the 1800s, is right on the border. Ladd and his wife and three sons as well as his father and mother have their homes there. The largely flat, scrub-covered piece of real estate, with its occasional groves of cottonwoods, spiny mesquite and clumps of sacaton grass and desert broom, seems to offer few places to hide. But the land is laced with arroyos in which scores of people can disappear from view. Ditches provide trails from the border to Highway 92, a distance of about three miles. That is the route that Ladd says 200 to 300 illegals take every night as they enter the U.S. They punch holes in the barbed-wire border fence and then tear up the many fences intended to separate the breeding cattle—Brahmin, Angus and Hereford—that divide the Ladd land.
Ladd doesn't blame the border patrol, most of whose officers, he says, are doing all they can under the circumstances. Indeed, apprehensions of illegals in Arizona have soared from 9% of the nation's total in 1993 to 51% this year. "I have real heartache for the agents who are really working," he says. "They track down the [smugglers], and the judges let them off, and they get a free trip back to Mexico, where they can start all over." The border-patrol agents, Ladd feels, "are responsible guys in a hypocritical bureaucracy."
Border crossing at the Ladd ranch is so flagrant that sometimes the illegals arrive by taxi. A dirt road parallels the border fence and the Ladd property for several miles, in full view of border-patrol electronic lookout posts that ceased functioning long ago. When drivers reach an appropriate location, passengers pile out and run through one of the many holes in the fence and make their way across the ranch.
These gaps present their own special problem. On the other side are Mexican ranches whose cattle wander onto Ladd's. "I'm up to 215 Mexican cows that I've put back into Mexico," he says. "I've got a dual-citizen friend—he's Mexican and American—works on this side for Phelps Dodge [Mining Co.], but he's got a ranch over at the San Jose Mountain. So I call him, and then he calls the Mexican cattle inspector. Then that guy meets me at the border and then coordinates the cows getting back to the rightful owners in Mexico." Ladd acknowledges that his do-it-yourself cattle diplomacy is "breaking both countries' laws." How so? "[In] the United States, you're supposed to quarantine any Mexican cattle for 30 days, and they test them for disease and everything else. What the problem is, there isn't enough cattle inspectors to do that, and then they don't have a holding corral anymore to do that."
Why does he spend so much time returning strays? So his counterparts in Mexico will return the favor because some of his cattle amble across the border through the same holes. "The whole reason that I started doing this for the Mexican ranchers was to show 'em, 'Yeah, I'm honest. I'm going to give you yours back, so you give me mine.' And it's worked. But the whole story is that I've spent money on long-distance and talked to everybody from the Boundary Commission to USDA to border patrol to customs and everybody else, and I said, 'You need to do something with your international fence.'" He's still waiting.
While the Department of Homeland Security seemingly lacks the money to secure the border, it does have money to spend in quixotic ways. In a $13 million experimental program started in July, the border patrol will not just drop illegal Mexican aliens at the border but actually fly them, at taxpayer expense, into the heart of Mexico. The theory is that it will discourage them from making the trek north again. But as one illegal, a Dallas construction worker who was among the 138 aboard the first flight, told a Los Angeles Times reporter, "I will be going back in 15 days. I need to work. The jobs in Mexico don't pay anything."
The plight of Jim Dickson, a hospital administrator in Bisbee, is summed up with one image. It's an ambulance that pulls into tiny Copper Queen Community Hospital and discharges illegal aliens injured in an auto accident. The border-patrol officers—on orders from Washington—have refused to take them onto the hospital property after taking them into custody. Instead, the officers have called an ambulance for the injured. If the officers were to arrive at the hospital to make their drop-off, then the border patrol (make that the U.S. government) would be responsible for paying the medical bill. And that's something the Federal Government (make that Congress) will not do. Instead, the government stiffs Dickson, 56, the genial CEO of the Copper Queen, a hospital that dates back to the turn of the previous century, when Bisbee was the largest town between San Diego and St. Louis, Mo.
Dickson and his community hospital symbolize much of what has gone wrong with the immigration policies of the U.S. and Mexico—"the irresponsibility," as Dickson puts it politely, of both governments. He figures he has another three years, maybe a little longer, before he might be forced to shut down the hospital. "We used to have 250 emergency-room visits a month. Now it's 500," says Dickson. They range from a lone man or woman rescued in the desert, suffering from dehydration or a heart attack, to multiple victims injured when vans jammed with 20 or more illegals crash during high-speed chases. Along the way the hospital is seeing more and more tuberculosis, AIDS and hepatitis. "We don't have to do disaster drills like other hospitals," Dickson says. "We have enough real disasters every year."
Unlike big governments, small community hospitals cannot run deficits forever. The Copper Queen's shortfall from treating illegal aliens grows each year. This year it will be about $450,000, bringing the total for the past few years to $1.4 million. With each money-losing year, a tiny piece of the 14-bed hospital dies. When that happens, the entire community suffers. Dickson's most agonizing decision came when he was forced to shutter the long-term-care unit. "It was the only place the elderly could go," he says. "If someone had dementia, we had a room for them." But no more. Now if people who spent their life in Bisbee need elder care, they must leave the area. "The more free care we give," Dickson says, "the more we have to ration what's left."
Dickson emphasizes that not all the free care is going to illegal aliens passing through on their way to other states. About half goes to Mexicans who use the Copper Queen as their personal emergency-care facility. In effect, the hospital, which performs general surgery, has become the trauma center for that stretch of northern Mexico. If an ambulance pulls up to the border-crossing point near Bisbee and announces "compassionate entry," the border patrol waves it through, and the Copper Queen is compelled to treat the patient. It is one more program that Congress mandates but does not pay for. "If you make me treat someone," says Dickson, "then you need to pay me. You can't have unfunded mandates in a small hospital." Although the Medicare drug act that passed last year provides for modest payments to hospitals that treat illegal aliens, Dickson says there is a catch that the U.S. government has yet to figure out. "How do I document an undocumented alien? How am I going to prove I rendered that care? They have no Social Security number, no driver's license."
The limits of compassion are also being tested on the Tohono O'odham Nation. About twice the size of Delaware, the tribe's reservation shares 65 miles of border with Mexico. Like the residents of the small Arizona towns just to the east, the Native Americans, many of whom live without running water and electricity, are overwhelmed. The Nation's hospital is often packed with migrants who become dehydrated while crossing the scorching desert, where summertime temperatures reach upwards of 110 degrees. The undermanned tribal police force helps the border patrol round up as many as 1,500 illegals a day. "If this were happening in any other city or part of the country," says Vivian Juan-Saunders, Tohono O'odham chairwoman, "it would be considered a crisis."
Yet the highest levels of the U.S. and Mexican governments have orchestrated this situation as a kind of dance: Mexico sends its poor north to take jobs illegally, and the U.S. arrests enough of the border crossers to create the illusion that it is enforcing the immigration laws while allowing the great majority to get through. Local lawmen like Jim Elkins and Larry Dever have learned the dance firsthand, and their towns and counties have to pay for it.
Elkins has been the police chief in Bisbee for 12 years, on the force for 30. Dever has been the sheriff of Cochise County—which includes Bisbee and encompasses an area almost the size of Connecticut and Rhode Island, with 84 miles along the Mexican border—for eight years and a deputy before that for 20 years. The two lawmen handle the same kinds of citizen demands made on local law-enforcement agencies everywhere—from murder to drugs to reports of abandoned cats. But never have they seen the likes of today's work, in which their time is monopolized by relentless reports of alien groups making their way through the area. The entries from Bisbee police logs speak for themselves, these a sampling from Friday, May 7:
9:05 a.m.: "[Caller] advised UDAs [undocumented aliens] on foot, west [of] high school on dirt road. At least 10 in area. U.S. border patrol advised of same. 38 UDAs turned over to U.S. border patrol."
4:31 p.m.: "[Officer] located three UDAs walking on Arizona and Congdon. All three turned over to USBP [U.S. border patrol] Naco."
4:32 p.m.: "[Officer] copied a report of a silver-in-color van loaded with approximately 30 UDAs left Warren. Later copied vehicle went disabled at mile post 345 on Highway 80. Thirty to 35 UDAs were located with vehicle. UDAs turned over to U.S. border patrol."
7:52 p.m.: "[Officer] located a group of UDAs in the area [of Blackknob and Minder streets]. Fifteen UDAs turned over to BP."
10:02 p.m.: "Reported a group of UDAs gathering on the bridge on Blackknob at Minder. Officers located six UDAs. TOT [turned over to] USBP."
On and on it goes. "Every day we deal with this," says Elkins. "People don't feel safe. The smugglers are dangerous people ... I find it hard to believe we can get 80 to 100 people in our neighborhoods. They come across in droves." Transporting them requires fleets of stolen cars, which explains why Arizona ranks No. 1 in cars stolen per capita, with 56,000 ripped off last year. "This is a lot of work for us. We're a small department," says Elkins, who has 15 officers. "So much of our time is spent on federal issues. We should be getting money for this [from the Federal Government]. But we don't."
The kinds of crime found in most communities are interwoven with the illegal-alien traffic on the border. "Our methamphetamine problem is alarming," Elkins tells TIME. "The last three homicides here were related to meth. Kids doing meth will take a load of udas to Tucson or Phoenix for a couple of hundred dollars." Sheriff Dever says more than a quarter of his budget "is spent on illegal-immigration activities," and he points to the ripple effect through the criminal-justice system: "The illegal aliens can't make bond, so they spend more time in jail. They're indigent, so they get a public defender. If they have health problems, they have to be treated."
Dever feels overrun and doesn't mind who knows it. He relates a story about a recent visit by a television crew that arrived in his office and asked whether he was aware that a group of presumably illegal aliens was camped out in a drainage ditch next to the sheriff's headquarters. Sensing a story, the crew wondered if he was embarrassed by the aliens' presence. A plainspoken man, Dever said he was not the least bit embarrassed. Their presence, he said, illustrated quite pointedly just how pervasive the problem was.
The people who probably should be a little embarrassed are the folks up the road at Fort Huachuca, Ariz., home of the U.S. Army's top-secret Intelligence Center. The facility, which trains and equips military-intelligence professionals assigned around the world, also happens to be a thoroughfare for illegal aliens and drug smugglers, with mountains on the base providing a safe haven.
Using some of the same routes as the people smugglers, the drug runners are well armed, equipped with high-tech surveillance equipment and don't hesitate to use their weapons. That's what happened earlier this year, when law-enforcement officers and Mexican drug runners engaged in a fire fight at the border in front of a detachment of Marines just back from Iraq, who were installing a steel fence to prevent illegal aliens from driving through the flimsy barbed wire. The Marines, unarmed, watched placidly. None were injured.
The situation across southern Arizona has spun so far out of control that many on the border believe a day of reckoning is fast approaching, when an incident—an accidental shooting, multiple auto fatalities, a confrontation between drug and people smugglers—will touch off a higher level of violence. And the nightmare scenario: some resident frustrated by the Federal Government's refusal to halt the onslaught will begin shooting the border crossers on his or her property. As a rancher summed up the situation: "If the law can't protect you, what do you do?" Everyone, it seems, is armed, including nurses at the local hospital, who carry sidearms on their way to work out of fear for their safety
++++++++++++++
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.kfi640.com/time_dooropen.html
cheers, ab
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His first night out they intercepted a group of illegals smuggling 250 lbs. of marijuana.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by MR:
Ranch Rescue won't get my sympathy if they are also wannabe drug warriors. Protecting private property and arresting "smugglers" are opposites. They are a mixed-up group.
On the one hand they are saying, "Don't come onto this man's land." and on the other they are saying, "Gimme what's in that suitcase."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So they should've let the illegals go cause they were smuggling dope?
The following is an excerpt from the recent Time magazine article on illegal
immigration. I've only copied the section here dealing with the ranchers
and towns next to the border that details their problems:
++++++
Living in the War Zone
When the crowds cross the ranches along and near the border, they discard backpacks, empty Gatorade and water bottles and soiled clothes. They turn the land into a vast latrine, leaving behind revolting mounds of personal refuse and enough discarded plastic bags to stock a Wal-Mart. Night after night, they cut fences intended to hold in cattle and horses. Cows that eat the bags must often be killed because the plastic becomes lodged between the first and second stomachs. The immigrants steal vehicles and saddles. They poison dogs to quiet them. The illegal traffic is so heavy that some ranchers, because of the disruptions and noise, get very little sleep at night.
John Ladd Jr., a thoughtful, soft-spoken rancher just outside Bisbee, gives new meaning to the word stoic. He is forced to work the equivalent of several weeks a year to repair, as best he can, all the damage done to his property by never-ending swarms of illegal aliens. "Patience is my forte," he says, "but it's getting lower." The 14,000-acre Ladd ranch, in his mother's family since the 1800s, is right on the border. Ladd and his wife and three sons as well as his father and mother have their homes there. The largely flat, scrub-covered piece of real estate, with its occasional groves of cottonwoods, spiny mesquite and clumps of sacaton grass and desert broom, seems to offer few places to hide. But the land is laced with arroyos in which scores of people can disappear from view. Ditches provide trails from the border to Highway 92, a distance of about three miles. That is the route that Ladd says 200 to 300 illegals take every night as they enter the U.S. They punch holes in the barbed-wire border fence and then tear up the many fences intended to separate the breeding cattle—Brahmin, Angus and Hereford—that divide the Ladd land.
Ladd doesn't blame the border patrol, most of whose officers, he says, are doing all they can under the circumstances. Indeed, apprehensions of illegals in Arizona have soared from 9% of the nation's total in 1993 to 51% this year. "I have real heartache for the agents who are really working," he says. "They track down the [smugglers], and the judges let them off, and they get a free trip back to Mexico, where they can start all over." The border-patrol agents, Ladd feels, "are responsible guys in a hypocritical bureaucracy."
Border crossing at the Ladd ranch is so flagrant that sometimes the illegals arrive by taxi. A dirt road parallels the border fence and the Ladd property for several miles, in full view of border-patrol electronic lookout posts that ceased functioning long ago. When drivers reach an appropriate location, passengers pile out and run through one of the many holes in the fence and make their way across the ranch.
These gaps present their own special problem. On the other side are Mexican ranches whose cattle wander onto Ladd's. "I'm up to 215 Mexican cows that I've put back into Mexico," he says. "I've got a dual-citizen friend—he's Mexican and American—works on this side for Phelps Dodge [Mining Co.], but he's got a ranch over at the San Jose Mountain. So I call him, and then he calls the Mexican cattle inspector. Then that guy meets me at the border and then coordinates the cows getting back to the rightful owners in Mexico." Ladd acknowledges that his do-it-yourself cattle diplomacy is "breaking both countries' laws." How so? "[In] the United States, you're supposed to quarantine any Mexican cattle for 30 days, and they test them for disease and everything else. What the problem is, there isn't enough cattle inspectors to do that, and then they don't have a holding corral anymore to do that."
Why does he spend so much time returning strays? So his counterparts in Mexico will return the favor because some of his cattle amble across the border through the same holes. "The whole reason that I started doing this for the Mexican ranchers was to show 'em, 'Yeah, I'm honest. I'm going to give you yours back, so you give me mine.' And it's worked. But the whole story is that I've spent money on long-distance and talked to everybody from the Boundary Commission to USDA to border patrol to customs and everybody else, and I said, 'You need to do something with your international fence.'" He's still waiting.
While the Department of Homeland Security seemingly lacks the money to secure the border, it does have money to spend in quixotic ways. In a $13 million experimental program started in July, the border patrol will not just drop illegal Mexican aliens at the border but actually fly them, at taxpayer expense, into the heart of Mexico. The theory is that it will discourage them from making the trek north again. But as one illegal, a Dallas construction worker who was among the 138 aboard the first flight, told a Los Angeles Times reporter, "I will be going back in 15 days. I need to work. The jobs in Mexico don't pay anything."
The plight of Jim Dickson, a hospital administrator in Bisbee, is summed up with one image. It's an ambulance that pulls into tiny Copper Queen Community Hospital and discharges illegal aliens injured in an auto accident. The border-patrol officers—on orders from Washington—have refused to take them onto the hospital property after taking them into custody. Instead, the officers have called an ambulance for the injured. If the officers were to arrive at the hospital to make their drop-off, then the border patrol (make that the U.S. government) would be responsible for paying the medical bill. And that's something the Federal Government (make that Congress) will not do. Instead, the government stiffs Dickson, 56, the genial CEO of the Copper Queen, a hospital that dates back to the turn of the previous century, when Bisbee was the largest town between San Diego and St. Louis, Mo.
Dickson and his community hospital symbolize much of what has gone wrong with the immigration policies of the U.S. and Mexico—"the irresponsibility," as Dickson puts it politely, of both governments. He figures he has another three years, maybe a little longer, before he might be forced to shut down the hospital. "We used to have 250 emergency-room visits a month. Now it's 500," says Dickson. They range from a lone man or woman rescued in the desert, suffering from dehydration or a heart attack, to multiple victims injured when vans jammed with 20 or more illegals crash during high-speed chases. Along the way the hospital is seeing more and more tuberculosis, AIDS and hepatitis. "We don't have to do disaster drills like other hospitals," Dickson says. "We have enough real disasters every year."
Unlike big governments, small community hospitals cannot run deficits forever. The Copper Queen's shortfall from treating illegal aliens grows each year. This year it will be about $450,000, bringing the total for the past few years to $1.4 million. With each money-losing year, a tiny piece of the 14-bed hospital dies. When that happens, the entire community suffers. Dickson's most agonizing decision came when he was forced to shutter the long-term-care unit. "It was the only place the elderly could go," he says. "If someone had dementia, we had a room for them." But no more. Now if people who spent their life in Bisbee need elder care, they must leave the area. "The more free care we give," Dickson says, "the more we have to ration what's left."
Dickson emphasizes that not all the free care is going to illegal aliens passing through on their way to other states. About half goes to Mexicans who use the Copper Queen as their personal emergency-care facility. In effect, the hospital, which performs general surgery, has become the trauma center for that stretch of northern Mexico. If an ambulance pulls up to the border-crossing point near Bisbee and announces "compassionate entry," the border patrol waves it through, and the Copper Queen is compelled to treat the patient. It is one more program that Congress mandates but does not pay for. "If you make me treat someone," says Dickson, "then you need to pay me. You can't have unfunded mandates in a small hospital." Although the Medicare drug act that passed last year provides for modest payments to hospitals that treat illegal aliens, Dickson says there is a catch that the U.S. government has yet to figure out. "How do I document an undocumented alien? How am I going to prove I rendered that care? They have no Social Security number, no driver's license."
The limits of compassion are also being tested on the Tohono O'odham Nation. About twice the size of Delaware, the tribe's reservation shares 65 miles of border with Mexico. Like the residents of the small Arizona towns just to the east, the Native Americans, many of whom live without running water and electricity, are overwhelmed. The Nation's hospital is often packed with migrants who become dehydrated while crossing the scorching desert, where summertime temperatures reach upwards of 110 degrees. The undermanned tribal police force helps the border patrol round up as many as 1,500 illegals a day. "If this were happening in any other city or part of the country," says Vivian Juan-Saunders, Tohono O'odham chairwoman, "it would be considered a crisis."
Yet the highest levels of the U.S. and Mexican governments have orchestrated this situation as a kind of dance: Mexico sends its poor north to take jobs illegally, and the U.S. arrests enough of the border crossers to create the illusion that it is enforcing the immigration laws while allowing the great majority to get through. Local lawmen like Jim Elkins and Larry Dever have learned the dance firsthand, and their towns and counties have to pay for it.
Elkins has been the police chief in Bisbee for 12 years, on the force for 30. Dever has been the sheriff of Cochise County—which includes Bisbee and encompasses an area almost the size of Connecticut and Rhode Island, with 84 miles along the Mexican border—for eight years and a deputy before that for 20 years. The two lawmen handle the same kinds of citizen demands made on local law-enforcement agencies everywhere—from murder to drugs to reports of abandoned cats. But never have they seen the likes of today's work, in which their time is monopolized by relentless reports of alien groups making their way through the area. The entries from Bisbee police logs speak for themselves, these a sampling from Friday, May 7:
9:05 a.m.: "[Caller] advised UDAs [undocumented aliens] on foot, west [of] high school on dirt road. At least 10 in area. U.S. border patrol advised of same. 38 UDAs turned over to U.S. border patrol."
4:31 p.m.: "[Officer] located three UDAs walking on Arizona and Congdon. All three turned over to USBP [U.S. border patrol] Naco."
4:32 p.m.: "[Officer] copied a report of a silver-in-color van loaded with approximately 30 UDAs left Warren. Later copied vehicle went disabled at mile post 345 on Highway 80. Thirty to 35 UDAs were located with vehicle. UDAs turned over to U.S. border patrol."
7:52 p.m.: "[Officer] located a group of UDAs in the area [of Blackknob and Minder streets]. Fifteen UDAs turned over to BP."
10:02 p.m.: "Reported a group of UDAs gathering on the bridge on Blackknob at Minder. Officers located six UDAs. TOT [turned over to] USBP."
On and on it goes. "Every day we deal with this," says Elkins. "People don't feel safe. The smugglers are dangerous people ... I find it hard to believe we can get 80 to 100 people in our neighborhoods. They come across in droves." Transporting them requires fleets of stolen cars, which explains why Arizona ranks No. 1 in cars stolen per capita, with 56,000 ripped off last year. "This is a lot of work for us. We're a small department," says Elkins, who has 15 officers. "So much of our time is spent on federal issues. We should be getting money for this [from the Federal Government]. But we don't."
The kinds of crime found in most communities are interwoven with the illegal-alien traffic on the border. "Our methamphetamine problem is alarming," Elkins tells TIME. "The last three homicides here were related to meth. Kids doing meth will take a load of udas to Tucson or Phoenix for a couple of hundred dollars." Sheriff Dever says more than a quarter of his budget "is spent on illegal-immigration activities," and he points to the ripple effect through the criminal-justice system: "The illegal aliens can't make bond, so they spend more time in jail. They're indigent, so they get a public defender. If they have health problems, they have to be treated."
Dever feels overrun and doesn't mind who knows it. He relates a story about a recent visit by a television crew that arrived in his office and asked whether he was aware that a group of presumably illegal aliens was camped out in a drainage ditch next to the sheriff's headquarters. Sensing a story, the crew wondered if he was embarrassed by the aliens' presence. A plainspoken man, Dever said he was not the least bit embarrassed. Their presence, he said, illustrated quite pointedly just how pervasive the problem was.
The people who probably should be a little embarrassed are the folks up the road at Fort Huachuca, Ariz., home of the U.S. Army's top-secret Intelligence Center. The facility, which trains and equips military-intelligence professionals assigned around the world, also happens to be a thoroughfare for illegal aliens and drug smugglers, with mountains on the base providing a safe haven.
Using some of the same routes as the people smugglers, the drug runners are well armed, equipped with high-tech surveillance equipment and don't hesitate to use their weapons. That's what happened earlier this year, when law-enforcement officers and Mexican drug runners engaged in a fire fight at the border in front of a detachment of Marines just back from Iraq, who were installing a steel fence to prevent illegal aliens from driving through the flimsy barbed wire. The Marines, unarmed, watched placidly. None were injured.
The situation across southern Arizona has spun so far out of control that many on the border believe a day of reckoning is fast approaching, when an incident—an accidental shooting, multiple auto fatalities, a confrontation between drug and people smugglers—will touch off a higher level of violence. And the nightmare scenario: some resident frustrated by the Federal Government's refusal to halt the onslaught will begin shooting the border crossers on his or her property. As a rancher summed up the situation: "If the law can't protect you, what do you do?" Everyone, it seems, is armed, including nurses at the local hospital, who carry sidearms on their way to work out of fear for their safety
++++++++++++++
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.kfi640.com/time_dooropen.html
cheers, ab
Last edited:
joe sixpack
Member
MR: also as regards to the "criminal" illegal aliens (drug smugglers,
murderers etc.) please see the following, again excerpted from
the Time magazine article:
Why Alien Criminals Are at Large in the U.S.
Perhaps the most alarming aspect of having 15 million illegals at large in society is Congress's failure to insist that federal agencies separate those who pose a threat from those who don't. The open borders, for example, allow illegals to come into the country, commit crimes and return home with little fear of arrest or punishment. From Oct. 1, 2003, until July 20, 2004, the border patrol's Tucson sector stopped 9,051 persons crossing into the country illegally who had criminal records in the U.S., meaning they committed crimes here, returned to Mexico, then were trying to re-enter the country. Among them: 378 with active warrants for their arrest. In one week, said border-patrol spokeswoman Andrea Zortman, there were two with outstanding "warrants for homicide."
And those were just the illegals the border patrol determined had arrest records. Most go undetected. Reason: the border patrol's electronic fingerprint-identification system, which allows officers to determine how many times an alien has been caught sneaking into the U.S., has only a limited amount of criminal-background data. The FBI maintains a separate electronic fingerprint-identification system that covers everyone ever charged with a crime. In true bureaucratic fashion, the two computer systems do not talk to each other. In the 1990s, the two agencies were directed to integrate their systems. They are still working at it. The most optimistic completion date is 2008. Until then, illegals picked up at the border may have any number of criminal charges pending, but the arresting officers will never know and will allow the intruders to return home.
In any event, the numbers suggest that tens of thousands of criminals, quite possibly hundreds of thousands, treat the southern border as a revolving door to crimes of opportunity. The situation is so out of control that of the 400,000 illegal aliens who have been ordered to be deported, 80,000 have criminal records—and the agency in charge, the Homeland Security Department, does not have a clue as to the whereabouts of any of them, criminal or noncriminal, including those from countries that support terrorism.
What's more, those figures are growing. Every day, prisons across the U.S. release alien convicts who have completed their court-ordered sentences. In many cases, the INS has filed detainers, meaning the prisons are obliged to hold the individuals until they can be picked up by immigration agents and returned to their native countries. But state law-enforcement authorities are not permitted to keep prisoners beyond their original sentence. When Homeland Security agents fail to show up promptly, which is often, the alien convicts are released back into the community. In addition to all these, at least 4 million people who arrived in the U.S. legally on work, tourist or education visas have decided to ignore immigration laws and stay permanently. Again, Homeland Security does not have the slightest idea where these visa scofflaws are.
The government's record in dealing with the 400,000 people it has ordered to be deported is dismal. A sampling of cases last year by the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General (OIG) found that of illegal aliens from countries supporting terrorism who had been ordered to be deported, only 6% of those not already in custody were actually removed. Of 114 Iranians with final orders for removal, just 11 could be found and were deported. Of 67 Sudanese with final-removal orders, only one was deported. And of 46 Iraqis with final-removal orders, only four were sent packing. All the rest, presumably, were living with impunity somewhere in the U.S.
Those statistics tell only part of the story. Most people charged with an immigration-law violation do not even bother to show up for a court hearing. Imagine for a moment a majority of people charged with a crime in state or federal courts flouting the indictment or charge and refusing to appear in court. They would be swiftly arrested.
But immigration law marches to a different drummer. Most illegals, including those with arrest records, are not jailed while awaiting a hearing. That's because Congress has failed to appropriate enough money to build sufficient holding facilities. Rather, the immigrants are released on their promise to return. They don't. And the odds are they won't be found. The OIG investigation revealed that of 204 aliens ordered to be removed in absentia, only 14 were eventually located and shipped out.
The situation is even worse when it comes to those aliens whose requests for asylum are rejected and who are ordered to be deported. The OIG study found that only 3% of those seeking asylum who were ordered removed were ultimately located and deported. That pattern, like failed immigration-law enforcement across the board, bodes well for potential terrorists. In the 1990s, half a dozen aliens applied for asylum before committing terrorist acts. Among them: Ahmad Ajaj and Ramzi Yousef, who entered the country in 1991 and 1992, respectively, seeking asylum. According to the OIG, Ajaj left the U.S. and returned in 1992 with a phony passport. He was convicted of passport fraud. Yousef completed the required paperwork and was given a date for his asylum hearing. In the meantime, in 1993, the two men helped commit the first World Trade Center attack, for which they were convicted and imprisoned. At the time, Yousef's application for asylum was still pending.
So what does the failed immigration system mean for ordinary people? Just ask Sister Helen Lynn Chaska. Actually, you can't. You will have to ask her family and friends.
It's the waning days of summer in 2002 in Klamath Falls, Ore., a city of about 19,000 on the eastern edge of the Cascade Mountains. Two nuns who belonged to the Order of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Bellevue, Wash., had made one of their periodic trips to Klamath Falls to carry out missionary work. As they had in the past, Sister Helena Maria (her church name), 53, and Sister Mary Louise, 52, checked into a Best Western motel. On Saturday, Aug. 31, they spent the evening proselytizing and selling religious items outside an Albertsons supermarket.
After returning to the motel, the two set out on their ritual prayer walk shortly after midnight. They were dressed in the blue habits they always wore as they walked on a darkened bike path behind the motel, reciting their rosaries. As they reached the midway point in their prayers and turned back toward the motel, they heard a bicycle coming up behind them. A Hispanic male in his 30s or 40s got off, grabbed both women and began kissing them. The more they resisted, the angrier he became. He finally punched Sister Mary Louise in the right eye so hard that she fell and hit her head on a rock, leaving her dazed. While holding Sister Helena Maria so tightly by the rosary knotted around her neck that she gasped for breath, he raped her first and then raped and sodomized Sister Mary Louise and raped Sister Helena Maria a second time. The man pulled the veil over Sister Mary Louise, told her not to move or he would kill her, climbed back on his MTB Super Crown bike and pedaled off. Sister Helena Maria was dead. The rosary had been wound so tightly, its marks were embedded in her neck.
Later that day, police tracked a suspect to another motel, where they began questioning him. He gave his name as Jesus Franco Flores, which turned out to be one of many names he used. In the end, he confessed to beating and raping both nuns. He was not supposed to be in the U.S.; he had been deported at least three times. By his account, his unlawful entries into the U.S. began in 1986 at the age of 17. Under the name Victor Manuel Batres-Martinez, which may have been his legal name, he found his way to Oregon, where he was arrested for unauthorized use of a motor vehicle. His sentence to a juvenile facility was suspended, with the understanding that the INS would deport him. The agency did so and in May 1987 granted him a voluntary return to Mexico, with a notation on government records that "subject has many good productive years ahead of him."
Assuming he went as the INS promised, he didn't stay long. In September that year, he was arrested and convicted of theft and shoplifting in Wenatchee, Wash., under the name Manuel Martinez. Two months later, he was convicted of felony sales of marijuana and hashish in Los Angeles and sent to jail for 60 days. In March 1988 he was arrested in Los Angeles, once for robbery, once for possession of a controlled substance. Another possession arrest followed in April. In August he was arrested in Los Angeles for robbery. In December he was sent to prison in California for second-degree robbery and kidnapping. While there, he was treated for what was deemed to be "a significant psychiatric disorder."
In January 1992, after his release, the INS sent him back to Mexico by way of Nogales, Ariz. Six months later, he was back again, spotted by border-patrol officers as he attempted to come back into the U.S. near El Paso, Texas. When agents tried to stop him, he ran into rush-hour traffic on Interstate 10, "narrowly avoiding collision with several cars," according to immigration records. He subsequently was arrested, that time under the name Mateo Jimenez, and ordered to be returned to Mexico. It didn't stick. In November he was arrested by Portland, Ore., police for possession and delivery of a controlled substance. He never showed up for court appearances.
On two occasions in January 2002, border-patrol agents again apprehended him as he tried to re-enter the U.S. Both times they returned him to Mexico. If the border patrol's electronic fingerprint-identification system had been in synch with the FBI's, the agents would have discovered Batres-Martinez's extensive criminal record. Given his prior deportations, Batres-Martinez could have been charged with re-entry after deportation, a felony that carries a substantial prison sentence. In any event, Batres-Martinez told police in Klamath Falls that he entered the U.S. on Aug. 11, 2002, that time coming through New Mexico. He said he hopped a freight train for San Bernardino, Calif., and looked for work, without success, from Los Angeles to Stockton. When he heard that he might have better luck in Portland, he hopped another train but got mixed up in a freight yard and ended up in Klamath Falls.
To avoid the death penalty, Batres-Martinez pleaded guilty to the murder of Sister Helena Maria, attempted aggravated murder of Sister Mary Louise and rape of both nuns. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
As for U.S. immigration authorities, they were characteristically ineffectual. On Sept. 5, four days after the murder, the INS faxed an immigration detainer to the Klamath County jail, concerning Maximiliano Silerio Esparza, also known as Victor Batres-Martinez: "You are advised that the action below has been taken by the Immigration and Naturalization Service concerning the above-named inmate of your institution: Investigation has been initiated to determine whether this person is subject to removal from the United States."
Both political parties and their candidates pay lip service to controlling the borders. But neither President Bush nor Senator Kerry supports a system that would end the incentives for border crossers by cracking down on the employers of illegals. T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, a labor organization that represents 10,000 border-patrol employees, believes the solution is obvious. The U.S. government, he says, should "issue a single document that's counterfeit proof, that has an embedded photograph, that says this person has a right to work in the U.S. And that document is the Social Security card. It's not a national ID card. It's a card that you have to carry when you apply for a job and only then. The employers run it through a scanner, and they get an answer in short order that says, Yes, you may hire, or No, you may not. That would cut off 98% of all the traffic across the border. With your work force of 10,000 border-patrol agents, you actually could control the borders."
But Bonner doesn't see that happening anytime soon because of pressure from corporate America. And all the available legislative evidence of the past quarter-century supports that view. "All the politicians—it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on—rely heavily on the donations from Big Business," he says, "and Big Business likes this system [of cheap illegal labor]. Unfortunately, in the post-9/11 world, this system puts us in jeopardy."
In the 9/11 commission's final report, now on the best-seller lists, the panel of investigators took note of the immigration breakdown in general, saying that "two systemic weaknesses came together in our border system's inability to contribute to an effective defense against the 9/11 attacks: a lack of well-developed counterterrorism measures as a part of border security and an immigration system not able to deliver on its basic commitments, much less support counterterrorism. These weaknesses have been reduced but are far from being overcome."
Folks on the border who must deal daily with the throngs of illegals are not optimistic that the Federal Government will change its ways. As Cochise County Sheriff Dever dryly observes, "People in Washington get up in the morning, their laundry is done, their floors are cleaned, their meals are cooked. Guess who's doing that?"
murderers etc.) please see the following, again excerpted from
the Time magazine article:
Why Alien Criminals Are at Large in the U.S.
Perhaps the most alarming aspect of having 15 million illegals at large in society is Congress's failure to insist that federal agencies separate those who pose a threat from those who don't. The open borders, for example, allow illegals to come into the country, commit crimes and return home with little fear of arrest or punishment. From Oct. 1, 2003, until July 20, 2004, the border patrol's Tucson sector stopped 9,051 persons crossing into the country illegally who had criminal records in the U.S., meaning they committed crimes here, returned to Mexico, then were trying to re-enter the country. Among them: 378 with active warrants for their arrest. In one week, said border-patrol spokeswoman Andrea Zortman, there were two with outstanding "warrants for homicide."
And those were just the illegals the border patrol determined had arrest records. Most go undetected. Reason: the border patrol's electronic fingerprint-identification system, which allows officers to determine how many times an alien has been caught sneaking into the U.S., has only a limited amount of criminal-background data. The FBI maintains a separate electronic fingerprint-identification system that covers everyone ever charged with a crime. In true bureaucratic fashion, the two computer systems do not talk to each other. In the 1990s, the two agencies were directed to integrate their systems. They are still working at it. The most optimistic completion date is 2008. Until then, illegals picked up at the border may have any number of criminal charges pending, but the arresting officers will never know and will allow the intruders to return home.
In any event, the numbers suggest that tens of thousands of criminals, quite possibly hundreds of thousands, treat the southern border as a revolving door to crimes of opportunity. The situation is so out of control that of the 400,000 illegal aliens who have been ordered to be deported, 80,000 have criminal records—and the agency in charge, the Homeland Security Department, does not have a clue as to the whereabouts of any of them, criminal or noncriminal, including those from countries that support terrorism.
What's more, those figures are growing. Every day, prisons across the U.S. release alien convicts who have completed their court-ordered sentences. In many cases, the INS has filed detainers, meaning the prisons are obliged to hold the individuals until they can be picked up by immigration agents and returned to their native countries. But state law-enforcement authorities are not permitted to keep prisoners beyond their original sentence. When Homeland Security agents fail to show up promptly, which is often, the alien convicts are released back into the community. In addition to all these, at least 4 million people who arrived in the U.S. legally on work, tourist or education visas have decided to ignore immigration laws and stay permanently. Again, Homeland Security does not have the slightest idea where these visa scofflaws are.
The government's record in dealing with the 400,000 people it has ordered to be deported is dismal. A sampling of cases last year by the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General (OIG) found that of illegal aliens from countries supporting terrorism who had been ordered to be deported, only 6% of those not already in custody were actually removed. Of 114 Iranians with final orders for removal, just 11 could be found and were deported. Of 67 Sudanese with final-removal orders, only one was deported. And of 46 Iraqis with final-removal orders, only four were sent packing. All the rest, presumably, were living with impunity somewhere in the U.S.
Those statistics tell only part of the story. Most people charged with an immigration-law violation do not even bother to show up for a court hearing. Imagine for a moment a majority of people charged with a crime in state or federal courts flouting the indictment or charge and refusing to appear in court. They would be swiftly arrested.
But immigration law marches to a different drummer. Most illegals, including those with arrest records, are not jailed while awaiting a hearing. That's because Congress has failed to appropriate enough money to build sufficient holding facilities. Rather, the immigrants are released on their promise to return. They don't. And the odds are they won't be found. The OIG investigation revealed that of 204 aliens ordered to be removed in absentia, only 14 were eventually located and shipped out.
The situation is even worse when it comes to those aliens whose requests for asylum are rejected and who are ordered to be deported. The OIG study found that only 3% of those seeking asylum who were ordered removed were ultimately located and deported. That pattern, like failed immigration-law enforcement across the board, bodes well for potential terrorists. In the 1990s, half a dozen aliens applied for asylum before committing terrorist acts. Among them: Ahmad Ajaj and Ramzi Yousef, who entered the country in 1991 and 1992, respectively, seeking asylum. According to the OIG, Ajaj left the U.S. and returned in 1992 with a phony passport. He was convicted of passport fraud. Yousef completed the required paperwork and was given a date for his asylum hearing. In the meantime, in 1993, the two men helped commit the first World Trade Center attack, for which they were convicted and imprisoned. At the time, Yousef's application for asylum was still pending.
So what does the failed immigration system mean for ordinary people? Just ask Sister Helen Lynn Chaska. Actually, you can't. You will have to ask her family and friends.
It's the waning days of summer in 2002 in Klamath Falls, Ore., a city of about 19,000 on the eastern edge of the Cascade Mountains. Two nuns who belonged to the Order of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Bellevue, Wash., had made one of their periodic trips to Klamath Falls to carry out missionary work. As they had in the past, Sister Helena Maria (her church name), 53, and Sister Mary Louise, 52, checked into a Best Western motel. On Saturday, Aug. 31, they spent the evening proselytizing and selling religious items outside an Albertsons supermarket.
After returning to the motel, the two set out on their ritual prayer walk shortly after midnight. They were dressed in the blue habits they always wore as they walked on a darkened bike path behind the motel, reciting their rosaries. As they reached the midway point in their prayers and turned back toward the motel, they heard a bicycle coming up behind them. A Hispanic male in his 30s or 40s got off, grabbed both women and began kissing them. The more they resisted, the angrier he became. He finally punched Sister Mary Louise in the right eye so hard that she fell and hit her head on a rock, leaving her dazed. While holding Sister Helena Maria so tightly by the rosary knotted around her neck that she gasped for breath, he raped her first and then raped and sodomized Sister Mary Louise and raped Sister Helena Maria a second time. The man pulled the veil over Sister Mary Louise, told her not to move or he would kill her, climbed back on his MTB Super Crown bike and pedaled off. Sister Helena Maria was dead. The rosary had been wound so tightly, its marks were embedded in her neck.
Later that day, police tracked a suspect to another motel, where they began questioning him. He gave his name as Jesus Franco Flores, which turned out to be one of many names he used. In the end, he confessed to beating and raping both nuns. He was not supposed to be in the U.S.; he had been deported at least three times. By his account, his unlawful entries into the U.S. began in 1986 at the age of 17. Under the name Victor Manuel Batres-Martinez, which may have been his legal name, he found his way to Oregon, where he was arrested for unauthorized use of a motor vehicle. His sentence to a juvenile facility was suspended, with the understanding that the INS would deport him. The agency did so and in May 1987 granted him a voluntary return to Mexico, with a notation on government records that "subject has many good productive years ahead of him."
Assuming he went as the INS promised, he didn't stay long. In September that year, he was arrested and convicted of theft and shoplifting in Wenatchee, Wash., under the name Manuel Martinez. Two months later, he was convicted of felony sales of marijuana and hashish in Los Angeles and sent to jail for 60 days. In March 1988 he was arrested in Los Angeles, once for robbery, once for possession of a controlled substance. Another possession arrest followed in April. In August he was arrested in Los Angeles for robbery. In December he was sent to prison in California for second-degree robbery and kidnapping. While there, he was treated for what was deemed to be "a significant psychiatric disorder."
In January 1992, after his release, the INS sent him back to Mexico by way of Nogales, Ariz. Six months later, he was back again, spotted by border-patrol officers as he attempted to come back into the U.S. near El Paso, Texas. When agents tried to stop him, he ran into rush-hour traffic on Interstate 10, "narrowly avoiding collision with several cars," according to immigration records. He subsequently was arrested, that time under the name Mateo Jimenez, and ordered to be returned to Mexico. It didn't stick. In November he was arrested by Portland, Ore., police for possession and delivery of a controlled substance. He never showed up for court appearances.
On two occasions in January 2002, border-patrol agents again apprehended him as he tried to re-enter the U.S. Both times they returned him to Mexico. If the border patrol's electronic fingerprint-identification system had been in synch with the FBI's, the agents would have discovered Batres-Martinez's extensive criminal record. Given his prior deportations, Batres-Martinez could have been charged with re-entry after deportation, a felony that carries a substantial prison sentence. In any event, Batres-Martinez told police in Klamath Falls that he entered the U.S. on Aug. 11, 2002, that time coming through New Mexico. He said he hopped a freight train for San Bernardino, Calif., and looked for work, without success, from Los Angeles to Stockton. When he heard that he might have better luck in Portland, he hopped another train but got mixed up in a freight yard and ended up in Klamath Falls.
To avoid the death penalty, Batres-Martinez pleaded guilty to the murder of Sister Helena Maria, attempted aggravated murder of Sister Mary Louise and rape of both nuns. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
As for U.S. immigration authorities, they were characteristically ineffectual. On Sept. 5, four days after the murder, the INS faxed an immigration detainer to the Klamath County jail, concerning Maximiliano Silerio Esparza, also known as Victor Batres-Martinez: "You are advised that the action below has been taken by the Immigration and Naturalization Service concerning the above-named inmate of your institution: Investigation has been initiated to determine whether this person is subject to removal from the United States."
Both political parties and their candidates pay lip service to controlling the borders. But neither President Bush nor Senator Kerry supports a system that would end the incentives for border crossers by cracking down on the employers of illegals. T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, a labor organization that represents 10,000 border-patrol employees, believes the solution is obvious. The U.S. government, he says, should "issue a single document that's counterfeit proof, that has an embedded photograph, that says this person has a right to work in the U.S. And that document is the Social Security card. It's not a national ID card. It's a card that you have to carry when you apply for a job and only then. The employers run it through a scanner, and they get an answer in short order that says, Yes, you may hire, or No, you may not. That would cut off 98% of all the traffic across the border. With your work force of 10,000 border-patrol agents, you actually could control the borders."
But Bonner doesn't see that happening anytime soon because of pressure from corporate America. And all the available legislative evidence of the past quarter-century supports that view. "All the politicians—it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on—rely heavily on the donations from Big Business," he says, "and Big Business likes this system [of cheap illegal labor]. Unfortunately, in the post-9/11 world, this system puts us in jeopardy."
In the 9/11 commission's final report, now on the best-seller lists, the panel of investigators took note of the immigration breakdown in general, saying that "two systemic weaknesses came together in our border system's inability to contribute to an effective defense against the 9/11 attacks: a lack of well-developed counterterrorism measures as a part of border security and an immigration system not able to deliver on its basic commitments, much less support counterterrorism. These weaknesses have been reduced but are far from being overcome."
Folks on the border who must deal daily with the throngs of illegals are not optimistic that the Federal Government will change its ways. As Cochise County Sheriff Dever dryly observes, "People in Washington get up in the morning, their laundry is done, their floors are cleaned, their meals are cooked. Guess who's doing that?"
2nd Amendment
member
Well, I can't find the links I wanted so I simply give up.
But, the more I read the more that seems OK. I just don't care enough anymore to argue some things. The old indignation flares up for a while and then it's overwhelmed by a case of "Who cares". Easier just to let the ignorant make their assumptions and continue to insist that everyone who picks away at LE is and always has been on the outside looking in. It's a matter of my increasing lack of respect for that opposition, based on comments such as "...Dont do something that would cause your farm to be referred to as a compound." and other such thoughtless crap. That and the closing of ranks everytime the rabble dare "bash LE".
*shrug* Time will tell, won't it?
But, the more I read the more that seems OK. I just don't care enough anymore to argue some things. The old indignation flares up for a while and then it's overwhelmed by a case of "Who cares". Easier just to let the ignorant make their assumptions and continue to insist that everyone who picks away at LE is and always has been on the outside looking in. It's a matter of my increasing lack of respect for that opposition, based on comments such as "...Dont do something that would cause your farm to be referred to as a compound." and other such thoughtless crap. That and the closing of ranks everytime the rabble dare "bash LE".
*shrug* Time will tell, won't it?
Old Dog
Member
It is good that we have citizens who want to be watchdogs over our government and its agencies. Isn't that a founding principle of our country?
It is good that we have folks out there who are suspicious of our government, its military establishment and its law enforcement agencies. It's even good that we have a liberal media (as frustrating as that is). This all keeps MOST of us doing our jobs in accordance with the higher principles which should guide us.
But 2A, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are ignorant. I regularly disagree with many people (some are even family members) who are much better educated than I am ... and probably in most respects, a whole lot smarter. But, everyone's experience is different. Does that mean I shouldn't get pissed off when some ultra-liberal college professor tries to tell me that the government I serve and the organization I work for has totally screwed up the war on terrorism? No. But I'm not gonna call him ignorant. He's entitled to his opinion, and, in fact, he's done his research. It's just that from where he sits, his experience is a world of difference from mine ...
It is good that we have folks out there who are suspicious of our government, its military establishment and its law enforcement agencies. It's even good that we have a liberal media (as frustrating as that is). This all keeps MOST of us doing our jobs in accordance with the higher principles which should guide us.
But 2A, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are ignorant. I regularly disagree with many people (some are even family members) who are much better educated than I am ... and probably in most respects, a whole lot smarter. But, everyone's experience is different. Does that mean I shouldn't get pissed off when some ultra-liberal college professor tries to tell me that the government I serve and the organization I work for has totally screwed up the war on terrorism? No. But I'm not gonna call him ignorant. He's entitled to his opinion, and, in fact, he's done his research. It's just that from where he sits, his experience is a world of difference from mine ...
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