UncleEd
Member
Howland937 and others,
I refer you back to Post #3.
I refer you back to Post #3.
Minimum trigger weight for carry?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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Howland937
Member
Yeah, I read that. 3 times now.
Trying to simulate stress of flight or fear or???
Not sure the merits of all the smacking and punching prior to checking my proficiency, and short of adding anger to the scenario it doesn't seem logical. If anger is entered into a self defense situation, defense in court probably isn't going to go well.
If the idea is adding stress, I can do without slapping and play fighting. Still not sure how 2lbs difference is going to make such a difference in your example.
Trying to simulate stress of flight or fear or???
Not sure the merits of all the smacking and punching prior to checking my proficiency, and short of adding anger to the scenario it doesn't seem logical. If anger is entered into a self defense situation, defense in court probably isn't going to go well.
If the idea is adding stress, I can do without slapping and play fighting. Still not sure how 2lbs difference is going to make such a difference in your example.
Howland937
Member
My 1911 triggers have all been done by the same individual. They're all right at 3# flat. Too light for some people? Surely.
IF I always treat my gun as if it's loaded (it is)
and
IF I don't point the muzzle at anything I'm not willing to "destroy" (kill/injure/maim)
and
IF I keep my finger away from the trigger until I'm prepared to fire, I'm not sure why the naysayers are so concerned. I'd much rather have someone relying on safe handling than a heavy trigger to prevent mishaps.
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I recommend choosing a factory firearm and leaving it as is, except for smoothing that does not change the pull weight.
Regardless of what one may think one likes in the way of trigger pull, one does not want the fact of a non-standard pull entered into evidence in a trial for criminal negligence or one concerning a civil suit, and one does not want an expert witness testifying that the pull weigh of a firearm is lighter than a prudent person would carry.
Some time ago, I carried a semi-auto with a trigger that I did not like. I fixed it--by replacing the gun.
Regardless of what one may think one likes in the way of trigger pull, one does not want the fact of a non-standard pull entered into evidence in a trial for criminal negligence or one concerning a civil suit, and one does not want an expert witness testifying that the pull weigh of a firearm is lighter than a prudent person would carry.
Some time ago, I carried a semi-auto with a trigger that I did not like. I fixed it--by replacing the gun.
Howland937
Member
Is the consensus reached by the same standard that was used to determine that handloaded or reloaded ammo is a no-go for self defense? Any deviation from "as it left the factory" is a bad idea?
I know the argument over factory vs reloads and heavy trigger vs tuned trigger always stirs up some dust. I just have to wonder, why isn't there the same concern for non-factory optics, lights and lasers? Lighter trigger, short reset trigger, WML, laser, red dot...all those things serve to make our guns more efficient or us more efficient with them.
The issue of reloads (obviously one of my pet topics) is a different kettle of fish than that of light triggers. Reloads run the risk of getting off into exemplar evidence. Barring catastrophic failure of your gun, the trigger in your gun will be around after a self-defense event for testing, if necessary.
Howland937
Member
Makes sense in that regard.
Are trigger enhancements viewed differently from a legal aspect than other enhancements? Obviously I don't know and am not an attorney, but if a shooting occurs and the trigger was intentionally pressed, does a 3# trigger make it harder to justify said shooting than a 5# trigger?
That's just it.
The defendant may claim that the shooting was intentional, but for reasons discussed at length here over the years, a plaintiff my want to persuade a jury that it was not, and for different reasons, a criminal prosecutor may choose to prosecute on the basis of negligence rather than lack of justification.
Police armorers will be able to provide expert opinion on what is reasonable.
Any person is more apt to discharge a firearm wit ha lighter trigger than with a heavier one.
Courts aside, that's an extremely good reason to avoid light triggers.
And double action capability in a revolver, for that matter.
Styx
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No... Plan and simple... The rest is just conjure.
As I said, this has been discussed at great length. Read up on it.
[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/legality-of-modified-concealed-carry-weapons.661179/"]Legality of "modified" concealed carry weapons[/URL]
Again, the mere fact of a trigger modification involving pull weight, which would be readily detected as a routine matter of course, would constitute material evidence that one does not want to have admitted.
Beyond that, if the weight and length of pull for a particular firearm fall below accepted minima, the expert witness will be testifying for the prosecutor or plaintiff. If above, the expert witness can help the defense.
[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/legality-of-modified-concealed-carry-weapons.661179/"]Legality of "modified" concealed carry weapons[/URL]
Again, the mere fact of a trigger modification involving pull weight, which would be readily detected as a routine matter of course, would constitute material evidence that one does not want to have admitted.
Beyond that, if the weight and length of pull for a particular firearm fall below accepted minima, the expert witness will be testifying for the prosecutor or plaintiff. If above, the expert witness can help the defense.
A right, regular magic act, is it?
Kleanbore beat me to it on a number of issues involved. Whether trigger enhancements/modifications would be 'viewed differently' might depend on the particulars of the case, but the availability of the trigger (or other hardware involved) at least means that the scientists could test the actual firearm used, unlike with ammo.
mindbent
Member
If I don't like the trigger weight in a carry gun I get a different gun. I didn't participate in the poll because I don't have that much experience with carrying a gun. I can say I've never modified or had a trigger modified to be lighter, smoother and shorter yes. I have an sw40ve and put an apex trigger on it (I hate hinged triggers) and polished the sear, trigger weight is the same. It's a shorter pull with no wall, it just goes bang. Most people have no idea how intense the adrenaline rush is in a life threatening situation and a 15# trigger will feel like a 5# trigger in situations like that. Not to mention the legal crap that will follow. A light trigger for a range gun is fine but not for carry. There's a reason SD guns have heavier trigger pulls. How many of you have or know someone that has had to fight for there life against an assailant? Learn to shoot the carry gun of your choice or get a different gun. Just my opinion and I have owned and shot a few different guns.
JR24
Member
I recall a case in Milwaukee I think, I tried to look and I just can't find it, where a criminal broke into a doctor's house and was subsequently shot but he homeowner.
This was before we had CCW and some legal protections from civil suits, and the criminal went after the homeowner claiming the shooting was unintentional.
Now, there's nothing concrete, but in said suit if it was determined the doctor had lightened his trigger pull, it could have made the defendant's case much harder.
Howland937
Member
So would it be at least plausible to suggest that the addition of a laser or optic to aid in accuracy could also be used against an individual in court?
"The defendent installed an aiming device to make it easier to inflict a mortal injury, which would have been more difficult if the factory sights were used"
Not trying to move the needle off topic, but it seems that anything causing a change in effectiveness could be regarded in the same context.
AD/ND/Intentional discharge notwithstanding.
"The defendent installed an aiming device to make it easier to inflict a mortal injury, which would have been more difficult if the factory sights were used"
Not trying to move the needle off topic, but it seems that anything causing a change in effectiveness could be regarded in the same context.
AD/ND/Intentional discharge notwithstanding.
JR24
Member
Thankfully I've never been in a shooting, but I can say that uncorking my .357 mag after a moving deer I sure didn't notice the long and heavy pull of my Ruger, it was kinda shocking how light it felt.
Heck, just shooting and dry firing my 11ish point HK DA trigger made my Sig 228 feel like a 5# breeze in comparison.
I've shot a few 3# or less competition triggers before and I sure would want a bit more leeway in a dynamic, possibly physical self defense situation.
I failed to address that part of the question, but it is covered in some of the discussion linked above.
The main issue with trigger mods has to do with the possibility or likelihood of unintentional discharge, and of the effect of the modification on ability of the plaintiff or prosecutor to argue that the shooting had been unintentional.
Other mods? Well, one does not want to engrave slogans or symbols that could put the shooter in an unfavorable light and provide a basis for an argument that the shooter had been predisposed to violence.
Anything can be brought up in court.
The purpose of bringing out the firearm is to threaten or use deadly force in the first place.
Styx
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It's just fearmongering. An overzealous prosecutors can and have made any number of wild, illogical, and outragous/rediculous claims in court that defy all common sense.
Aftermarket tiggers, lighter spring replacements, so on and so forth have been around for decades and are widely untilized and popular. Millions have been sold and are currently installed and carried by Americans. There are several companies who have been in a profitable business for several years solely selling trigger kits, springs, and gun smithing services to lighten or otherwise improve the triggers on revolvers and pistols. CZ, Beretta, and other firearm manufacturers even partner with some of these aftermarket trigger upgrade companies. Some firearm manufacturers even sell OEM parts that will improve or lighten the trigger.
This has been going on for decades. There is little to zero proof or data that shows or proves to me that this will be a relitive and/or deciding factor or something that will have me or anyone else for that matter convicted of a violent felony. I'm sure that one anecdotal can be found or brought up within the thousands of self defense shootings that have happened over the course of several decades, but a lone exception does not make a rule.
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That's not true at all, there evidentiary rules that dictate what can and can't be said in court.
But that having been said before you even start down the path of a criminal prosecution or a civil case, you're going to have a prosecutor or plaintiff attorney assessing the totality of a given situation. I wouldn't think that something like a trigger mod or cosmetic enhancement would be at the forefront in determining whether to move forward on most cases, but they could certainly be viewed as aggravating factors. I don't remember many of the specifics but I do recall a shooting several years ago (I think at a hotel?) and the dust cover on the AR involved had RIP or some other logo or phrase on it and it was just a bad look. I do think stuff like that can potentially increase the chances that a prosecutor or plaintiff attorney proceeds on a case, and if a case is even prosecuted/pursued you've got yourself a big headache at best.
Of course if I step into my defense attorney shoes I'll certainly argue that none of that stuff is relevant and it should be excluded, but whether I win that argument will depend on all the specifics of the case, the legal standards at hand and the judge.
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bullseye308
Member
My daily carry Glock 17 has a trigger that is light and smooth, don’t have a scale so I’m not sure what it is. After many, many thousands of rounds through it, it is worn in and lightened up. To this point it has been totally safe and never given any concerns. It is definitely lighter than a newer Glock and to my knowledge the trigger parts are factory, I bought it used.
I occasionally carry a Springfield Range Officer 9mm 1911 that I purchased new, and when cocked and locked the trigger seems light and crisp to me. It is just a bit better that the Glock trigger. On rare days around the yard I’ll carry a Smith 67 for pests and the single action on it is sneakily light, about like the hair trigger on my muzzle loader. I’m comfortable carrying any of them as I am used to them and know what to expect with each one. After running thousands of rounds through them you get a feel for it and muscle memory and much dry fire keep me comfortable using any of them.
Odds are I’ll never use any of them for their intended purpose, and my intent is to never pull one until it is necessary to use it, but things happen and I’ll do the best I can if I’m ever put into that position. Worry enough to be aware there might be a problem and address it as you can, but don’t stress over it too much as it will most likely not come to pass. Just like carrying reloads, probably never be an issue, but there is a chance.
I occasionally carry a Springfield Range Officer 9mm 1911 that I purchased new, and when cocked and locked the trigger seems light and crisp to me. It is just a bit better that the Glock trigger. On rare days around the yard I’ll carry a Smith 67 for pests and the single action on it is sneakily light, about like the hair trigger on my muzzle loader. I’m comfortable carrying any of them as I am used to them and know what to expect with each one. After running thousands of rounds through them you get a feel for it and muscle memory and much dry fire keep me comfortable using any of them.
Odds are I’ll never use any of them for their intended purpose, and my intent is to never pull one until it is necessary to use it, but things happen and I’ll do the best I can if I’m ever put into that position. Worry enough to be aware there might be a problem and address it as you can, but don’t stress over it too much as it will most likely not come to pass. Just like carrying reloads, probably never be an issue, but there is a chance.
bullseye308
Member
I don't remember many of the specifics but I do recall a shooting several years ago (I think at a hotel?) and the dust cover on the AR involved had RIP or some other logo or phrase on it and it was just a bad look.
That I believe was a police officer and he got fired, partly because of that engraving, if I remember correctly. Definitely not something to put on a duty gun, probably just as bad on a carry gun. Most likely ok on a range gun.
That I believe was a police officer and he got fired, partly because of that engraving, if I remember correctly. Definitely not something to put on a duty gun, probably just as bad on a carry gun. Most likely ok on a range gun.
I don’t modify triggers. I buy them that way, factory trigger.
And don't forget the civil plaintiff, with a lesser burden of persuasion.
Regardless of the outcome, the cost of the defense could be overwhelming,
Your understanding of the subject seems lacking, Read the treads linked above.
Do you not think that the gun will have been admitted?
Buzznrose
Member
I put a Timney Alpha trigger on a G19 Gen 5. It is crisp and light. But as I’m pretty much used to shooting stock Glocks with a simple polish job and 4.5 connector, this is lighter than I am used to. It has a wall, albeit a light one. I plan to do some training with it for a bit and then reassess carrying it.
Ive had one range session with the gun so far. Shot a bit over 100 rounds. Slow fire, fast fire….but no holster work yet. It is an excellent trigger…and makes me more accurate than my stock trigger.
Ive had one range session with the gun so far. Shot a bit over 100 rounds. Slow fire, fast fire….but no holster work yet. It is an excellent trigger…and makes me more accurate than my stock trigger.
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