Minimum trigger weight for carry?

[Trey Veston]

Fascinating discussion! Thank you for keeping it civil on all sides.

 

[Kleanbore]

3 of the cases cited in the article above were of DA/SA revolvers ....The remaining 2, being LEO's carrying modified weapons on duty,

The article was about how evidence regarding light trigger pulls can become important at trial. While evidence of modifications to lighten the pull would be relevant and might well serve as a red flag, the scope of the article is wider.

Regarding revolvers, my SP101 is now DA only, and my K6s always has been. Were I to carry a Cobra, it would be he DA-only variant.

The biggest takeaway is that everything you do, think or say, the equipment you utilize, your body language etc...in a defensive encounter can and will be examined, analyzed and scrutinized.

It san and will, but that's not the biggest takeaway here.

 

[JR24]

Understood. The reasons would seem to mean the most, and the reason the firearm was drawn to begin with better be legitimate....fired or not. I got caught up in the frame of mind that "if you have justification for bringing a gun out, it's appearance or functional enhancements are secondary as long as they're not prohibited by law."

True, but often the justification might be in question, especially in a situation without witnesses.

The classic Harold Fish case comes to mind, I recall post decision the jurors commenting that they didn't like that he used hollowpoints ("those are designed to kill") and his use of a 10mm because it was bigger than what the police used, both perfectly legal. Of course that was a screwjob and was eventually overturned but it sure seemed a nightmare for a while.

I can only imagine a lightened trigger pull would have made his case even harder.

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266

 

[Trey Veston]

I live in a pretty moderate area with an extremely low crime rate. Local DA is not known for being aggressive towards gun owners. My sister-in-law is a prosecutor in the next county over, and married to my brother, a Detective in the next county over.

What are the statistical probabilities of me, 1) Being involved in a defensive shooting. 2) That shooting being questionable. 3) The police noticing that my pistol has a lighter trigger than stock by 1.5 lbs. 3) The particulars of the incident coming down to the weight of the trigger. And 4) The DA deciding to go after the relative of a local decorated law enforcement officer, attorney, and former Chief of Police?

I would seriously consider my chances of winning the Powerball about ten times more likely than the aforementioned scenario.

 

[JR24]

I live in a pretty moderate area with an extremely low crime rate. Local DA is not known for being aggressive towards gun owners. My sister-in-law is a prosecutor in the next county over, and married to my brother, a Detective in the next county over.

What are the statistical probabilities of me, 1) Being involved in a defensive shooting. 2) That shooting being questionable. 3) The police noticing that my pistol has a lighter trigger than stock by 1.5 lbs. 3) The particulars of the incident coming down to the weight of the trigger. And 4) The DA deciding to go after the relative of a local decorated law enforcement officer, attorney, and former Chief of Police?

I would seriously consider my chances of winning the Powerball about ten times more likely than the aforementioned scenario.

True, yet someone always gets to "win" the proverbial Powerball despite the odds.

 

[SteadyD]

I prefer revolvers so I voted over 6 lbs. I have no problem with a trigger twice that weight, assuming the pull is smooth. For me personally, I don’t like to use guns with light triggers. I like the added layer of safety the extra pull weight provides. Obviously most folks disagree with me on that.

 

[JTQ]

Trigger travel can also be an issue. Here's Earnest Langdon at about the 2:30 mark talking about trigger travel.

 

[reverseturn]

Re: Minimum acceptable trigger pull weight.
I am persuaded in a simple risk/benefit analysis that modifying a stock trigger on a carry gun presents more potential legal risk than any possible benefit for me. Don't know how much risk is there but there is certainly some risk. The more important question though is there some minimum weight threshold or other characteristics where a gun becomes unacceptably risky. Whatever that threshold is I want to be well above it. That is mostly a subjective question and dependent on the individual, his attributes such as attentiveness, carefulness, experience level with that gun and on and on. I suspect there are plenty of guns where due to its "stock" characteristics would be a bad choice, perhaps irresponsible and therefore immoral for me to carry. BTW: that also includes a potential legal risk. So I think "stock" trigger is a one minimum factor but only a partial answer.

Re: The poll question of ideal trigger weight I answered 6+ pounds.
Primarily because the bulk of my time is shooting double action revolvers and am pretty accurate shooting them DA. I usually shoot a little worse or at least no better when I switch to auto loaders with much lighter triggers. If all my time was spent shooting the semi-auto's I'm sure it would be a different answer. If there is no accuracy benefit why go down in trigger weight? Again this question depends on the individual and where they are at in a certain point in time and can change.

My experience is mainly limited to my own guns. So I depend on the internet for info. I give a lot of weight to owners or reviewers when they express reservations about a particular gun. Walther PPQ is an example. Some love them some think the trigger is just "too good" for carry.

IMO: When thinking about infrequent but high risk events such as unintended discharges resulting in injury or self defense shootings, personal experience is not sufficient. Saying I never had a problem is not sufficient. Reasoning is most important, followed by reasoned opinions of others, statistics (hard as they are to find) and anecdotes.

Any of the above does not recognize that many own guns for recreational purposes. Modifying a trigger to increase shooting satisfaction is certainly valid and if the gun is secondarily used for carry ok I guess just not for me. I admit to installing a slightly lighter hammer spring in some of my revolvers the resulting pull weight is still above anything discussed and they are infrequently on my person.

 

[herrwalther]

Quite a bit of risk mitigation advice is based on 'what ifs.' If someone came to my house and advised me to get rid of all of my fire extinguishers, I would likely ask, "What if I have a fire?" I'm not claiming that gun mods, reloads, Punisher grips or the like come up often in court cases, but the risk of it happening is non-zero.

I remember during the Zimmerman/Martin shooting, it was brought up that Zimmerman's pistol had no safety. And it was therefore possible he fired mistakenly. His firearm was a Kel-tec P-11 if I recall right. A firearm with no manual safety. I wouldn't trust a jury to decide my fate without knowing simple firearms knowledge. First time there is a civilian self defense shooting with a red dot, the media spin will be crazy.

 

[JR24]

I remember during the Zimmerman/Martin shooting, it was brought up that Zimmerman's pistol had no safety. And it was therefore possible he fired mistakenly. His firearm was a Kel-tec P-11 if I recall right. A firearm with no manual safety. I wouldn't trust a jury to decide my fate without knowing simple firearms knowledge. First time there is a civilian self defense shooting with a red dot, the media spin will be crazy.

That "journalist" antifa bodyguard who shot that protester last summer had a dot on his pistol, IIRC

 

[UncleEd]

I prefer revolvers so I voted over 6 lbs. I have no problem with a trigger twice that weight, assuming the pull is smooth. For me personally, I don’t like to use guns with light triggers. I like the added layer of safety the extra pull weight provides. Obviously most folks disagree with me on that.

One of the most sane and reasonable
comments made in this thread.

A lot of auto users, translate to would-be
"gunfighters," may never understand
how SteadyO is so very wise.

To clarify, I do like SA autos but prefer them
with 4 to 5 pound triggers. But for
protection much better a Beretta 92 with
9 pound DA and 5 pound SA. That DA
pull is definitely a "safety valve."

 

[Kleanbore]

What are the statistical probabilities of me, 1) Being involved in a defensive shooting. 2) That shooting being questionable. 3) The police noticing that my pistol has a lighter trigger than stock by 1.5 lbs. 3) The particulars of the incident coming down to the weight of the trigger. And 4) The DA deciding to go after the relative of a local decorated law enforcement officer, attorney, and former Chief of Police?

Statistics do not work that way. Forget cumulative probabilities altogether.

Regarding the first item, one's chances of being involved in a use of force incident in any one year are extremely low. But all analysis must be based on what happens when an incident occurs.

Regarding the second, the incident is going to be investigated on the basis of what evidence can be pieced together afterward. Witnesses are apt to notice nothing until after they hear a shot---and what they will then see will not be favorable to the defender. Nether will be the testimony of a surviving attacker--the victim, legally--or his accomplices.

On the first of your thirds, that's a near certainty. The test is routine.

On the second third, it won't matter with a stock tigger, but a lighter than stock trigger will give both prosecutors and plaintiff clear paths to charging negligence.

On the fourth, don't kid yourself, and for heaven's sake don't create trouble for yourself by posting that kind of thing.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

4.5 to 5.5lbs is what I prefer.

Having said that, I've carried 1911s down to 3.5lbs temporarily while working on my primary carry.

Regards,
Josh

 

[Rexster]

I do my best work with long-stroke DA revolvers, that are well over six pounds; some are probably close to twice that. On a really good day, I can shoot my Les Baer 1911 pistols, with their sweet factory pulls, almost as well as a DA revolver, if I concentrate, diligently, for each shot. This tells me that trigger pull weight is not the most important part of the accuracy/performance equation.

if attending a shooting class, with a high volume of shooting, I can get cumulative hand fatigue, so, yes, pull weight can make a difference, in that regard.

My problem with Glocks is not pull weight, but consistency. Each Glock is a law unto itself, regarding the movement of multiple parts. I have to grip a Glock very firmly, to do good work with them, and that can get tiring.

In the context of this discussion is mostly about safety, well, I see far too many folks using the trigger as a carry handle. In such cases, I would think six pounds to be far too light.

 

[SimonRL]

Trey Veston,

You re going to get a lot of variations.
And I don't think you are advocating a
trigger of less than four pounds.

But first, for yourself, to try and duplicate
some adrenaline combined with trigger
weight/gun handling, get together with a
friend.

First, Trey, jog or run a half block or bound
up stairs; do this several times. Next,
allow your friend to slap you in the face
seferal times and also give you a few
light to medium taps with his fist to your
chest. Next do some deep knee bends.

Now take a gun with a 3.5-pound trigger
weight and fire a decent pattern at say
seven yards. And, please, no unintentional
double or triple taps.

Maybe this will make sense to you or not.

I was going to say the same thing about taking a defensive/ gun fighting course and using a 3.5 lb trigger and not inadvertently letting off a couple of double taps.

 

[Rexster]

I live in a pretty moderate area with an extremely low crime rate. Local DA is not known for being aggressive towards gun owners. My sister-in-law is a prosecutor in the next county over, and married to my brother, a Detective in the next county over.

What are the statistical probabilities of me, 1) Being involved in a defensive shooting. 2) That shooting being questionable. 3) The police noticing that my pistol has a lighter trigger than stock by 1.5 lbs. 3) The particulars of the incident coming down to the weight of the trigger. And 4) The DA deciding to go after the relative of a local decorated law enforcement officer, attorney, and former Chief of Police?

I would seriously consider my chances of winning the Powerball about ten times more likely than the aforementioned scenario.

1) It is not the odds. It is the stakes. If I played the statistical odds, I would not bother to carry a gun. My only defensive shooting happened as a result of a call for police service. I was a responding LEO.

2) Every shooting may be questioned.

3) The police may not notice. The Firearms Examiner will measure it, and it will be recorded in the report.

Your Second 3) Mas Ayoob is one of the better-known authors, on this subject.

4) A certain type of DA would consider such a prosecution to be a feather in his/her cap. (My going further would be an off-topic drift into politics.)

I have yet to win the Power Ball, but I had a very stressful grand jury experience, once upon a time, after a defensive shooting, that resulted in a death.

i am not telling anyone what to do, and am not providing legal advice. Notably, some of my carry revolvers have had custom trigger work, by reputable ‘smiths that I can name. I have carried Les Baer 1911 pistols, in my police duty holsters, and during personal time. My Wilson Combat and Robar customized Glocks do not have triggers that feel any lighter than stock. I accept that custom work can be questioned, especially if sued in civil court.

 

[sgt127]

Trigger travel can also be an issue. Here's Earnest Langdon at about the 2:30 mark talking about trigger travel.

No.

Settle down little boy, grownups are talking.

(good video!)

 

[Howland937]

san and will, but that's not the biggest takeaway here.

Sorry, that was the biggest takeaway for me. I'll buy that trigger modifications could be a problem for a defendent. Whether it's lighter, shorter re-set, whatever. I'm convinced.

I just don't see it stopping there, though.

 

[airfoil]

I only carry a Sig 938 in a pocket...it's got a off switch, and a pull at 5 lbs.

In wintertime I have carried a 226 with a short reset mod which pulls around 5 1/2.

So, let me wander off topic for a moment...

Today I was at the range, function testing a not-a-Glock I built that has a 4 1/2 lb. pull... (and doubt I would ever carry) and struck up a conversation with a guy shooting what he called a 'Olympic style' .22 pistol.

The pull he said is 38 GRAMS. I asked to handle it and with permission dry fired it...absolutely the lightest I've ever felt, no takeup, no wall...touch it...boom. He shot it one handed, 8 in. targets at fifty yards, every hit in the 8 in. black is a 9 score, and he scored on all shots.

I admit I was afraid to shoot the thing, I know I would have a problem hitting the backstop, one handed, with that trigger.

But I may watch the Olympics now.

 

[UncleEd]

Handled an "Olympic style" .22 target once
at a store. Owner handed to me and I
got ready to test the trigger. As soon as
I touched the trigger, i heard a click.

Yikes! And the gun store owner grinned
as I said, "Not for me."

 

[JR24]

Handled an "Olympic style" .22 target once
at a store. Owner handed to me and I
got ready to test the trigger. As soon as
I touched the trigger, i heard a click.

Yikes! And the gun store owner grinned
as I said, "Not for me."

My wife has talked about her dad's target .38 he used to shoot department bullseye with long ago, she claimed the same thing where she was just handling it with hammer back and it popped off without her touching the trigger. I've never handled it to verify, but she wouldn't touch it again (and she prefers wheel guns) and I have handled and shot one of his other smiths and it had some good trigger work done, I certainly wouldn't do much with that things SA pull, though the DA was quite nice.

 

[Tirod]

What's being left off the table in this discussion is what the world's militaries decided long ago. The general guideline is a 6# trigger on most combat weapons for personal defense. It was arrived at by a well rounded perspective, including 24 hour operations, serious mental fatigue, extremely disruptive environmental conditions, the constant threat of lethality, and what was considered acceptable friendly fire casualty rates.

A two man team working the battlefield after hours of constant advance, resupply of their second combat load, crawling thru mud, fighting thru enemy defensive positions with barbed wire and other edged obstacles, running over ground chewed up by large artillery and air dropped munitions, no food, scant to no water leading to dehydration and caloric deficiency, stumbling thru vines, brush, rocky ground at combat speed in three second rushes to fall behind cover - where is the soldiers finger, what position is the safety on?

There are very few military arms without safeties for the same reasons. Simulating some of that with additional slapping around and getting beaten by sticks, go ahead. Done that, done basic etc. Spend 6 days "in the box" in training one MRE every other day and no water resupply for 24 hours. 12 hour patrols back to back - that's considered a light training exercise for general garrison troops to maintain readiness proficiency. Get mobilized and you ratchet up the pressure. SEALS swim in the North Sea to assault a drill rig in storm conditions as their "training exercise."

What tier is your training conducted at?

Now, in the middle of your ops, swap weapons due to circumstances which took them out of your hands. You pick up the nearest thinking it was yours, and rise to fire,safety off, put your finger on the trigger and before you even acquire a sight picture On NOes it's not the 6# pull you expected. That would not be acceptable for a SERT team any more than a husband wife older children being stampeded in the mall by panicked consumers. Does your family all shoot the same trigger weight, and, is it safe to carry for all the different skill levels?

That is what the military deals with daily. We often look to the military to create standards yet in this case it's conveniently ignored when it comes down to personal carry.This as being a matter of whether someone considers their firearm to be a tool, or an expression of what they would like others to think they are. There are a lot of firearms sold to do a job, and many are sold to enhance an image. G Shock vs Rolex kind of thing.

Nothing wrong with a fine watch, Murica! and all that, I know which is really more accurate and can take a beating. I will keep shooting a 6 pound trigger which is in all my firearms across the board. It reduces the differences among them and isn't a hazard when hunting or carrying. I also consider that it really makes no difference what initiates the primer - striker or hammer, the trigger weight on the primary pull is what determines if you need a safety. And if all your other weapons have one, why introduce one that does not? Like having disparate trigger weights, it creates a condition that compounds errors. No, I don't subscribe to having "one of each of every type" in a carry rotation, it's often a convenient excuse for humble bragging they have a lot of guns. Under stress, you fall back to the most trained condition, hope you are carrying that one when you need it. Since all my hunting firearms have a safety, I carry a striker fired 9mm with a safety. Why would I not? I now shoot them all with the same trigger weight and manual of arms. Who needs confusion or the potential of less safe handling?

Most negligent discharges occur when the weapon in on the users' hands. And their finger wasn't on the trigger, just ask. Nobody is recommending a target weight trigger and no safety - its a very rare combination - yet either one could cause an issue. Extreme ex: Just because you don't put a boa constrictor in the cradle doesn't mean you should even have it in the house. Yet people do risky things anyway as image enhancement. I don't swim with sharks or sleep with tigers, there are no retired base jumpers.

 

[Zendude]

In Mas’ article referenced earlier, he states that “Glock itself stipulates that no less than the standard 5.5-pound trigger should be in place for anything but target shooting.”
For guns with a thumb safety, it appears that this guidance does not apply. The Wilson Combat EDC X9, which has a thumb safety, has an advertised trigger weight of 3.5 to 4.5 lbs. The reason I specifically mention Wilson Combat is because Mas and Bill Wilson are close friends and I doubt WC would create an EDC gun that Mas would find problematic in court.

 

[Kleanbore]

For guns with a thumb safety, it appears that this guidance does not apply. The Wilson Combat EDC X9,...

And grip safety.

 

[UncleEd]

Tirod,

Thanks for the excellent posting. Wish you had posted
it within the first few on this thread.