Missed Shooting by Two Minutes--Advice

[Cosmoline]

I've been doing a lot more commuting on my bike and on Saturday afternoon I was on the homeward stretch after running errands in midtown. I was riding my bike towards a major intersection between Spenard and Minnesota, hoping to cross and continue on Spenard. There was one squad car pulled over into the sidewalk right in front of me, though. By the time I closed the distance four more cruisers were there along with an ambulance, and they were helping a man who had just been shot.

Here's the story:

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/crime/story/7730718p-7642360c.html

Earlier Saturday, a fight in the parking lot of Skipper's Restaurant near Spenard Road and Minnesota Drive ended with one man shot in the leg and another man in jail.

Police said Ronald Johnston, 44, and Mutazz Chenery, 26, fought in the parking lot about 5 p.m. At one point, Johnston reportedly had Chenery in a head lock, but Chenery was able to break free.

According to police, Chenery pulled a gun and shot Johnston, hitting him in the thigh. Johnston was transported to a hospital with injuries that were not life-threatening, said Anita Shell, a police spokeswoman.

The reason for the fight remained unknown Sunday, Shell said. Neither man would talk to police, she said.

Witnesses from the scene gave police Chenery's license plate number, she said. Police used that information to track him to a home on Strawberry Road where he was taken into custody.

My question is, what should I have done had I been driving past two or three minutes earlier? I would have seen on my right hand side, just a few feet away, two men fighting with each other then one get shot. I had my shoulder holster on with an SP-101 loaded with HP 180's and a single speedloader with 200 grain solids.

Let's run down options:

1--Crank it and go past and away as fast as possible. The drawback with this option is I would only be about fifteen feet from a major six lane road with tons of Saturday afternoon traffic. I would have had to make a right turn, which would then expose me to the line of sight of the shooter (or getting run over by his car) as I passed the SKipper's parking lot exit on Minnesota.

2--Crank it to the nearest concealment and cover, in this case Skippers itself, then hop off and draw. The problem with this it immediately puts a crosshairs on me if any cop car arrives. And some of the APD youngsters are a wee bit quick on the trigger.

3--Same as 2, but don't draw. The problem here is for all I know this is the start of some big Skippers Slaughter and I'm next. The building will keep me from seeing that the gunman has fled.

4--Try to drive right through traffic across Minnesota,full speed ahead.

5--Stop at the shooting, draw and order the gunman to drop it.

None of these options are particularly good. They require me to either expose my back to fire or my front. But I guess that's the nature of the beast. Any ideas?

 

[NMshooter]

For all you know you might have been helping the bad guy.

Or quite possibly they both might have counted as bad guys.

If you have superior mental powers that enable you to read minds and discern intentions you might be able to figure out which side (if any) to take in a random street confrontation, but without such you may be better off not jumping in.

Taking cover at a distance would seem prudent, especially in a doorway or alley giving you a covered escape route.

Watching first is always a good idea when considering getting involved in someone else's affairs.

When do you think you would have realised that guns (other than your own) were part of the confrontation?

 

[Lou629]

If it ain't in your face...

Best to mind your own business unless you are one of the principals involved. I can't think of a possible outcome that would be good for you as the third party. One or the other if not both of the principal actors might turn on you in a "mind your own damn business" way. Or, if the cops show up 2 seconds after YOU become involved, YOU might be the first one THEY
draw on. If another good guy like yourself happens along 2 seconds after YOU get involved but before the police get there, YOU may be the one that HE draws on. I think you can see where i'm going with this.

 

[Nortonics]

Unless you're a cop, in this case there is only one right answer - stay safely away and call a cop.

 

[Cosmoline]

stay safely away and call a cop.

This is standard advice, but as my own situation shows it's also completely useless in this sort of scenario. The option of staying safely away and calling a cop is not remotely realistic, which is why it's not listed. I wish I could draw a map, but this is around a pretty blind corner coming up Spenard. By the time I saw the fight at bike speeds, it would be in my lap. I can't throw my bike into reverse or fly up in the air. I have to either stop or keep going, either way I'm exposing myself to potential danger. That's how real life works. It's a choice of evils. Best case scenario is what did happen, which is coming to it after the fact when the cops were on scene. I avoided the whole business. But had I been there two or three mintues earlier it would have been happening RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. So what do I do in that case? Wishing it wasn't happening or pretending it isn't happening aren't really viable alternatives.

 

[Nortonics]

Well then ya gotta' at least add a "none of the above" choice then.

You asked:

My question is, what should I have done had I been driving past two or three minutes earlier?

You asked "what should I have done...", yet the right answer doesn't fit I guess. Your asking us to tell you what you believe is the most correct answer is in your mind only.

Should have made a pole out of this thread - with a "none of the above" choice.

And still, in the situation you describe, the only correct answer is already listed above. If ya wanna' be a cop, try out for the academy...

 

[evan price]

A CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE DOES NOT MAKE YOU BATMAN!!!


Call cops from your cell phone. Keep driving. It's none of your business. You are not a cop!

 

[aufevermike]

Option 6: .....Move south to the Kenai Peninsula where mostly all you have to worry about is bears......

I feel for ya man. That place is just getting more and more crazy.

Mike

 

[sgphoto]

At the risk of drawing your ire, I would suggest you stay out of it. You're not a cop, this is a parking lot brawl, and you're considering getting into the fray.

Just for a minute pretend you didn't have a gun--would you have been so concerned with getting into the middle of it? I would suggest if you had noticed the fight and not had a gun, you'd have gotten the hell out of there. If necessary, you'd have thrown the bike down and run like hell.

But now that you have a gun you want to get involved and by your own admission, may have pulled your gun and "ordered" the gunman to "throw" down his weapon. What if he didn’t? What then? You’ve escalated the situation without authority or knowledge of the facts. Are you going to shoot the “gunman”?

What if the "gunman" had been an undercover cop--now you've aligned yourself with his opponent whether you meant to or not.

Just because you now can legally carry a gun does not make you responsible for "putting down disturbances" nor bringing law and order to society.

Unless a SERIOUS life-threatening Felony takes place in front of you and/or involves you directly get out of harm's way and don't get in the way. Don’t play a policeman—play being your own bodyguard. Don’t look for situations to draw your gun—look for ways to get away from and avoid such situations.

Had you interjected yourself into such a “fight” as you described, you would have been wrong. Had you pulled your gun, you could have been “dead” wrong or killed someone and probably be guilty of manslaughter. In addition such behavior is what gets "gun people" called irresponsibile.

I apologize if you take this the wrong way but take care of yourself and leave police work to LEO.

 

[JohnKSa]

I think that any course of action that involves your stopping near the fight increases your chances of drawing fire by an impressive margin. Any option that involves you directly in the conflict (drawing, ordering the combatants around, etc.) will increase the chances of being shot even more.

If your goal is to minimize the danger to you then I'd say keep moving as quickly as you safely can and pick the direction where it's least likely you'll get hit by a car. I don't know many people who can shoot a handgun well enough to stop in the middle of a fight, hold the other combatant off with one hand, take aim with the other hand and hit a person on a moving bicycle. But dodge into traffic and you'll be a grease spot before you can blink twice.

 

[Cosmoline]

And still, in the situation you describe, the only correct answer is already listed above. If ya wanna' be a cop, try out for the academy...

All good and well, but when I'm riding there, faced with one man who just shot another, your advice does me no good whatsoever. I *AM* involved and stopping my bike to get out a phone and call the cops while standing two feet from a man who just shot another strikes me as bizarre and profoundly stupid. It's the worst possible option, which is why it isn't even listed.

At the risk of drawing your ire, I would suggest you stay out of it. You're not a cop, this is a parking lot brawl, and you're considering getting into the fray.

I tend to agree, but then the question is *HOW DO I STAY OUT OF IT* I can try to shoot past them on the bike and go for cover, or I can just try to get as far away as possible. This will expose my back to fire, but I figure it's better to be a moving target. It's a very tricky situation, though. Very very tricky. There's no easy way around it--literally.

Call cops from your cell phone. Keep driving. It's none of your business. You are not a cop!

BIKE. Comprende usted? BICYCLE. No cell phone attached to the handlebars! But your misreading brings up another interesting point. If you're stuck in a car right there, your options are even fewer and you're probably in a lot more danger than someone on a bike. In spite of the popular imagination, today's cars do absolutely NOTHING to stop a bullet. Even a handgun round will cut through a car door. And at that time of day at that intersection it's no easy matter to just "keep driving."

If your goal is to minimize the danger to you then I'd say keep moving as quickly as you safely can and pick the direction where it's least likely you'll get hit by a car.

That's probably the best solution, though I left off the possibility of moving at ramming speed and just pile-driving the shooter ;-)

 

[sgphoto]

Sir, it’s becoming apparent that you should have jumped off your bike, come out with your guns blazing, shot the bad guys, put out any fires, rescued the kitty cat from the tree, leaped into the street to save the baby wandering in traffic, helped the little old lady across the busy highway, and then hung around for the news crews to interview you while the mayor gave you the keys to the city and all the ladies waited with baited breath to take you home to meet mother.

You are a hero just waiting to happen. Good luck on your new career.

I'll be waiting for your autobiography when it's on the NY Times bestseller list, and when Spielberg makes the movie, I'll get buttered popcorn for everyone.

Let us know when the statue is unveiled.

 

[Magic79]

Two guys fighting have complete tunnel vision. Go on...they'll never know you were there.

If they're not threatening you, stay out of it, stay alive.

 

[Cosmoline]

You are a hero just waiting to happen. Good luck on your new career.

You should try reading the thread before trying to insult me. You somehow convinced yourself that I'm after a confrontation with the shooter when that's just one option, and in all probability a bad one. Have you still not read the original post, or you do just not understand it?

Two guys fighting have complete tunnel vision. Go on...they'll never know you were there.

That's a really good point I hadn't thought of before. If you shoot someone, you're unlikely to care much about someone on a bike going past. And if you just got shot, even more so.

 

[sgphoto]

It was not meant as an insult. It was an observation that you were not looking for advice. You were looking for validation of your predisposition to get involved rather than avoiding a confrontation.

I've seen individuals all my life who carry a gun (a few real cops, most often security or rent-a-cops) who can't wait to show off that they're packing.

I've also seen a few of those guys have a gun shoved where the sun don't shine.

Most of the responders to your "situation" have given you good advice. Most of the responders really don't care whether or not you take it.

You seem to be determined to get in a gun situation. Good for you. I'm sure it will make a two-inch filler column on the back of the sports page near the want-ads.

But please, stay in Alaska. Those of us in the lower states that have CCW don't need you messing it up for the rest of us.

 

[Cosmoline]

When did I say I wanted to pull a firearm on them? It is one option.

Most of the responders to your "situation" have given you good advice.

Most of them read the original post instead of trying to goad me into a fight. Your continued attempts to insult me do make me wonder whether you're just a troll, but for the moment I'll assume you're just confused. Please go back and read the first post. There are a number of potential options to the problem. This thread is for knocking them around and seeing which are best. At this point it looks like biking fast to the nearest cover and staying out of the whole thing would be the best option, which is good to know.

If you're goal is to hop onto THR and start goading members into fights, you should look elsewhere for your entertainment.

 

[BigO01]

Interesting thing to have happen to you for sure , I'm sure you glad you were two minutes "Late" to the party .

AS far as what you should do if you had walked into all of it , I guess finding cover and trying to become invisable is the best thing you could do .

You have no idea as the who is shooting whom and why , it could be an undercover cop trying to arrest a drug dealer for all you know . Now if they were spraying into a crowd randomly , I would try to get a clean shot at the shooter .

This kind of thing could explode in your face in several different ways , walking out of a store at an outside mall and you could get caught up in driveby shooting as gang members are usually teenagers and hang out at malls all the time .

A few years back on the news I saw where two rival gangs had gone to either Sears or JC Pennys to do there Xmas shoplifting and gotten into a shootout in the store when they ran into each other , some of them were hit and lay dying on the floor while their homeys ran out of the store with things that they had stolen in the clothing department .

 

[Nostratic]

It sounds like the question has been asked and answered. Personally, I would've headed away as fast as I could've. The only place I'm not going to retreat is in my house; anywhere else, and I'm out of there if it's at all feasible. I'd be a terrible witness to a shooting crime, because I would be the hell out of there. Call a cop when you're in a safe place.

Without knowing the particulars of the street layout and such, it's hard for anyone not living in the same town to know the lay of the land, so it's hard to give a definitive "turn left, go to the gas station half a block down, turn right, etc." kind of answer.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to help. There is everything wrong with being stupid about it. All too often, folks want to help but have no idea of the actual parameters of the situation. They fail to have the situational awareness (CCW guy in Arizona run over by get-away driver in get-away car while compatriots were robbing roach coach at stop light when he drew on robbers), performed stupidly (Tacoma Mall, failed to draw gun on gunman supposedly fearing brandishing and apparently tried to verbally stop the gunman when then shot 5 times.), perform in a rash manner), performed rashly (Tyler, saw courthouse shooting from apartment over square by gunman who apparently was not realized to be wearing body armor. Grabbed handgun and ran to confront instead of either A) using handgun from 2nd floor apartment vantage (and cover) or B) using a long gun from there. Good guy unknowingly took position of cover behind what turned out to be the bad guy's truck and was eventually dropped by the bad guy who then walked over and shot him in the head. More than anything, the bad guy was going to escape in his vehicle and the good guy never comprehended the significance of the vehicle he chose to use or the bad guy with armor and the good guy owned a gun range and taugh self defense).

In these events, all three good guys were either killed or permanently disabled (Tacoma Mall). They all meant well. In the last, both police and non-police were saved. In all cases, a better understanding of the situation would have been most helpful. In all these cases, good guys acted when they otherwise could have remained safe, at least for a while (Tacoma).

I am all for helping, but I am not at all for dying for strangers when I have people who (believe it or not) love and depend on me to be there for them first. I am not SWAT. I am not backed up by a team of crack SWAT team members. I do not wear full body armor during daily activities, carry a rifle and/or shotgun on my person, and cannot radio "Officer Needs Help" or "Officer Down" and have every cop from 10 miles of my location respond to my needs amazingly fast, dispactchers calling for every unit without first determining the priority of my call, who is in the area who might arrive fairly quick, maybe even a couple of officers. Nope, I am CCW. I am not of the brotherhood of cops or their compatriot firemen. There is nothing wrong with their brotherhoods, nothing at all. They tend to give best attention to their professional families as much as I would my own.

 

[sgphoto]

Not a troll. Ex-LEO, patrol officer, detective.

Not looking for a fight with anyone, just not willing to stroke your ego or support bad/stupid decisions.

I suggest you re-read your own post and your responses. It doesn't take Freud to grasp your psychological compulsion to rachet up a situation for your own needs. It's your own words that give you away.

If your actions only endangered you, I really could care less. But you are carrying a weapon and your poor judgement endangers others.

I'm sure you're a good person, but you are capable of making bad decisions. Your propensity to take it up a notch by interjecting yourself into such a situation is a bad decision.

Remember that pulling your weapon is the last response for civilians after other options are not available.

Have a nice day.

 

[fletcher]

Back to your original question with some of what I would recommend. I believe that if you did in fact come upon the situation on your ride, what to do would be as clear as day. Also keep in mind that you could have done 100 different combinations of responses that would be good.

1--Crank it and go past and away as fast as possible. The drawback with this option is I would only be about fifteen feet from a major six lane road with tons of Saturday afternoon traffic. I would have had to make a right turn, which would then expose me to the line of sight of the shooter (or getting run over by his car) as I passed the SKipper's parking lot exit on Minnesota.

If you recognized this quickly, then this option is no good. Escaping = good. Doing it at severe risk of being run over = bad.

2--Crank it to the nearest concealment and cover, in this case Skippers itself, then hop off and draw. The problem with this it immediately puts a crosshairs on me if any cop car arrives. And some of the APD youngsters are a wee bit quick on the trigger.

Sounds like a plan, but I wouldn't draw. However, you accounted for this \/

3--Same as 2, but don't draw. The problem here is for all I know this is the start of some big Skippers Slaughter and I'm next. The building will keep me from seeing that the gunman has fled.

I believe this would probably be the best solution. Go inside, and keep an eye on what's going on. If it did turn out to be a Skippers Slaughter, he would no longer have surprise, and you could probably drop him justifiably in legitimate self defense. If he ran off, you could wait there and give officers a statement, or leave on your own. This option allows you to cover many bases.

4--Try to drive right through traffic across Minnesota,full speed ahead.

If there were no danger for you by hauling across there, this is a good response.

5--Stop at the shooting, draw and order the gunman to drop it.

IMO, bad idea for many of the mentioned reasons.

 

[Trip20]

I wish I could draw a map, but this is around a pretty blind corner coming up Spenard.

Here ya go. I've placed you where I think you are in the story. And your traveling west, correct? Is that the restaurant directly on the corner (in red)? Because the restaurant address places them almost one block north of that location (blue building). It's possible Google's map software is screwing up.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

+1
this guy has the right idea... "At the risk of drawing your ire, I would suggest you stay out of it. You're not a cop, this is a parking lot brawl, and you're considering getting into the fray.

Just for a minute pretend you didn't have a gun--would you have been so concerned with getting into the middle of it? I would suggest if you had noticed the fight and not had a gun, you'd have gotten the hell out of there. If necessary, you'd have thrown the bike down and run like hell.

But now that you have a gun you want to get involved and by your own admission, may have pulled your gun and "ordered" the gunman to "throw" down his weapon. What if he didn’t? What then? You’ve escalated the situation without authority or knowledge of the facts. Are you going to shoot the “gunman”?

What if the "gunman" had been an undercover cop--now you've aligned yourself with his opponent whether you meant to or not.

"Just because you now can legally carry a gun does not make you responsible for "putting down disturbances" nor bringing law and order to society.

Unless a SERIOUS life-threatening Felony takes place in front of you and/or involves you directly get out of harm's way and don't get in the way. Don’t play a policeman—play being your own bodyguard. Don’t look for situations to draw your gun—look for ways to get away from and avoid such situations.

Had you interjected yourself into such a “fight” as you described, you would have been wrong. Had you pulled your gun, you could have been “dead” wrong or killed someone and probably be guilty of manslaughter. In addition such behavior is what gets "gun people" called irresponsibile.

I apologize if you take this the wrong way but take care of yourself and leave police work to LEO." -sgphoto

 

[Biker]

If a couple of guys want to roll around in a parking lot, ain't none of my bidness.
Biker

 

[Zero_DgZ]

That happened to me once. Not the getting shot at in the parking lot thing, the strange timing thing.

Shortly after I bought my first shotgun and .22, my nephew and I were headed out for a day of shooting. Along the way we stopped off at the local dollar store to grab some drinks and look for interesting targets (wound up with a couple of buckets of sidewalk chalk sticks for a dollar each) and we were on our way.

We read in the paper the next day that the store had been robbed at gunpoint by a single man, and the owner had been shot. Wounded, but not killed. It all went down about ten minutes after we left.

Had we taken a little longer rounding up our shoes and our ammo we could have ran right into that masked man with a loaded shotgun of our own. But, perhaps luckily, things didn't pan out that way.