Modern ammo got self-defense calibers down to 9mm, why hasn't the same happened for wilderness?

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Martin248

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Bit of an essay to follow, but the TLDR is a question - why haven't smaller, lighter rounds replaced heavier more powerful rounds in hunting and wilderness defense, the way they have in self defense applications?

The iconic handguns used over the years for self defense have steadily come down in size and power, from 45 long colt, to 45 ACP, to 357 magnum, to 40 S&W and now it's pretty much 9mm for everything.

One reason why the rounds have come down in size and power is technology has made them better, rounds like HST can deliver good consistent expansion and penetration under a wide range of circumstances. A second reason, though, is simply a better understanding of ballistics--we now know that no handgun round actually has any "stopping power", there's simply not enough energy in a handgun cartridge to inflict the "temporary wound channels" that a rifle round can. A handgun round simply pokes holes through things, and its "stopping power" depends entirely on poking a hole through something vital.

Since a larger round has only a marginally better chance of hitting something critical--a 9mm round would have to miss by less than 1mm for an 11mm round to hit with the same shot placement--handguns have come down in power in the hopes of achieving better shot placement, and to enable higher magazine capacities, while improved technology has ensured these rounds still have sufficient barrier penetration for common scenarios.

The same thing has not really happened with wildlife rounds, whether rounds carried for wildlife defense, or for hunting. It's still common to hear people say that you need a 44 magnum to face a grizzly bear, or to hunt large game animals ethically.

Yet the same factors must be true in wildlife scenarios as in self defense: the stopping power of a handgun round is still entirely determined by whether or not it poked a hole in something vital, and an 11mm hole is still not much more likely to do that than a 9mm hole. It still takes a rifle round to deliver enough energy to wound significantly beyond the hole itself.

Yes, there's a need for better penetration--animals, particularly big ones shot head on, have a lot more fur, fat, bone, and meat to punch through to get to something vital, but surely modern technology can solve for that? A 9mm round with a penetrating core should be able to poke holes just as well as a bigger, more powerful old fashioned round? If some degree of expansion is wanted, surely that can also be achieved through the kind of technology that made HST a reality?

So why have we not seen smaller calibers replace larger calibers in wilderness defense and hunting? Perhaps we would not get all the way down to 9mm, but surely a modern 40cal or at least 357 magnum round can be designed that out-performs the very best 45 caliber rounds of last century?
 
Because the magic bullets that expand to 35 times their diameter only exist in 9mm. Not in .40, not in .45. So, certainly not in .30. But apparently there are magic bullets in 6.5mm and 6mms that allow virtually anyone to kill anything at 1,000 yards minimum. So you don't really need a stopping caliber/rifle anymore. I know this is true because I read it in the "gun press".
 
For one thing in a wilderness defense situation over penetration is of no concern, as where in urban settings that is something to consider when choosing a caliber/load combination. And the threat in the former situation can also be from attackers a lot larger, more deadly than humans.
 
why haven't smaller, lighter rounds replaced heavier more powerful rounds in hunting and wilderness defense, the way they have in self defense applications?
Because the intended target of a self-defense round is the weakest, narrowest (through the thoracic cavity), thinnest skinned mammal in its weight class! Fast/light/expanding bullets work acceptably on humans because we're pusillanimous pipsqueaks, and that's before you consider that without drugs on board we're nearly universally cowards who to fall over yelping at the realization that we're bleeding.

While your typical 200# bear/hog (pick a species that might attack back) might be turned by the sting of a non-CNS hit, they might not, and if they reach you they'll kill you before the oxygen in their brain runs out.

In short, animals are much harder to stop (not kill, STOP) than humans, so greater penetration and disruption is the usual approach.
 
Because the intended target of a self-defense round is the weakest, narrowest (through the thoracic cavity), thinnest skinned mammal in its weight class! Fast/light/expanding bullets work acceptably on humans because we're pusillanimous pipsqueaks, and that's before you consider that without drugs on board we're nearly universally cowards who to fall over yelping at the realization that we're bleeding.

While your typical 200# bear/hog (pick a species that might attack back) might be turned by the sting of a non-CNS hit, they might not, and if they reach you they'll kill you before the oxygen in their brain runs out.

In short, animals are much harder to stop (not kill, STOP) than humans, so greater penetration and disruption is the usual approach.

Yes, last 3 whitetail I shot were broadside boiler room shots, lung lung heart, and all ran for at least another minute, one managed an impressive field crawl on clearly fatal hits with 180 grain .30-06.

And whitetail aren't particularly tough in the medium-large game world.

You want good sectional density, lots of penetration and since we are taking rifles, more energy is good too. A good BC gets the round further with more energy.
 
Yes, last 3 whitetail I shot were broadside boiler room shots, lung lung heart, and all ran for at least another minute, one managed an impressive field crawl on clearly fatal hits with 180 grain .30-06.

And whitetail aren't particularly tough in the medium-large game world.

You want good sectional density, lots of penetration and since we are taking rifles, more energy is good too. A good BC gets the round further with more energy.
Exactly! I doubt you will ever see a human run 50-100 yards after being shot thru the lungs and heart.
 
I’ll admit to never having been in a SD situation either bipedal or 4 legged.

and while I agree about poking holes where they count I also believe when facing a critter a bigger bullet (both size and weight) to break bones is also beneficial.
 
Everything?

No. For humans.

True. I feel fine with modern 9mm for CCW or SD but if I'm gonna be in an area with wild critters (bears, boars, dogs, big cats) I want a wide meplat, hard cast and weight (for momentum and to possibly punch through hard bones).

200 grain 10mm or 255 +P .45 hardcasts are my go to now that I don't live anywhere near Grizzly country.
 
I have been using and recommending 9mm for defense for a long time. Even back when many more folks disparaged 9mm and insisted on 40 and 45. Including many police agencies. I think no more or less of 9mm now than I ever have.

Granted, it was not my primary carry as I usually carry 38 but I still like it now for all the same reasons I did then.

It has reasonable power and is easy to handle in smaller pistols. My first 9mm carry oriented pistol was a Kahr K9. I still see that as a reasonable choice and not much different dimensionally than what is available today. Yes I know, it is heavier and a single stack but still relatively close to the same size.

In my mind, not much has changed about 9mm. Modern bullets may or may not make it more effective. I still don’t know whether to think modern bullets are any better now than the modern bullets of the time were in the recent past. Were Black Talons, Rangers, Golden Sabers, HydraShoks, etc really that bad?
 
In my mind, not much has changed about 9mm.
It has. Nas to do wit the bullets.

Modern bullets may or may not make it more effective.
They do.

The data are public and readily available.

I still don’t know whether to think modern bullets are any better now than the modern bullets of the time were in the recent past.
That depends upon two things: which bullets one is considering, and what one defines as "modern"
 
Since a larger round has only a marginally better chance of hitting something critical. . .
Entirely, completely, not the case. If we're talking dangerous game defense, that 9mm will stop on the shoulder, not breaking the bone. My 45 Colt will stop 3 ft into the ground begin the animal, and leave a hole through anything (skull, shoulders, hips) along the line.

A 9mm round with a penetrating core should be able to poke holes just as well as a bigger, more powerful old fashioned round?
Look for some of the Bovine Bash work done around here. I think you underestimate the degree of penetration necessary.
 
For SD and HD I trust 9mm and .38 Special to STOP a threat, not necessarily kill.

But when I am in the desert or the forest I am carrying .357 Magnum or .45 Colt and they are not loaded with the rounds I would use for human defense. If I encounter a creature that could kill me and I need to shoot it I would not be shooting it to STOP the threat, I am shooting it to KILL it. I wouldn’t want a wounded animal running around becoming an even more deadly threat to someone else due to my actions.
 
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You want good sectional density, lots of penetration and since we are taking rifles, more energy is good too. A good BC gets the round further with more energy.

We're talking handguns. Your white tail would likely have done the exact same regardless of whether the hole was an extra mm since clearly it didn't hit anything vital enough for instant incapacitation. Making the hole an extra mm wider still likely wouldn't have.
 
I am not really not interested in a wilderness load that penetrates no more the 12 inches because it expanded to a huge diameter.

Obviously, but modern penetrators can go as deep as you want. No one's suggesting using a SD round, just that bullet technology improves whatever parameter you want to tweak, and with a handgun it's still all about shot placement.
 
We're talking handguns. Your white tail would likely have done the exact same regardless of whether the hole was an extra mm since clearly it didn't hit anything vital enough for instant incapacitation. Making the hole an extra mm wider still likely wouldn't have.

The point was that with animals, a caliber and hit that would be clearly fatal and almost certainly instantly incapacitating to a human is not so even with a thin skinned medium game. The deer that crawled for a good distance, hiding in the weeds, had both lungs penetrated, the heart came out in pieces and the shoulder was completely shattered. No human is still functioning after a hit like that.

What works for 2 legged predators, light fast or expansion with minimal penetration does not translate well to wild animals. Thick fur, harder bones, a will to live unmatched by humans all call for deeper penetrating rounds and more weight and momentum to crush through bone and fur.
 
The point was that with animals, a caliber and hit that would be clearly fatal and almost certainly instantly incapacitating to a human is not so even with a thin skinned medium game.

What works for 2 legged predators, light fast or expansion with minimal penetration does not translate well to wild animals. Thick fur, harder bones, a will to live unmatched by humans all call for deeper penetrating rounds and more weight and momentum to crush through bone and fur.

That's true of humans as well. Lots of fatal wounds take hours to die from. The question is whether adding or subtracting another mm from the width of your round, or adding/subtracting another 100fps from its velocity, really makes any difference out of a handgun.

Lots of people have the experience of shooting something with a handgun and watching it run around for awhile and they conclude that they want more power. But would more power, up to the levels a handgun can deliver, change the outcome?
 
That's true of humans as well. Lots of fatal wounds take hours to die from. The question is whether adding or subtracting another mm from the width of your round, or adding/subtracting another 100fps from its velocity, really makes any difference out of a handgun.

Lots of people have the experience of shooting something with a handgun and watching it run around for awhile and they conclude that they want more power. But would more power, up to the levels a handgun can deliver, change the outcome?

Likely not, but with something like 9mm I'm just not sure you're going to have the "oomph" to handle dangerous game reliably in comparison to a round that can chuck a heavier round at around the same velocity or better.

You do mention .357 mag and it is a perfectly viable round for plenty of these applications, so I'll agree there, but even then I prefer a 158 grain hardcast loaded as hot as I can.

Velocity is good, but for game I think you still need momentum and more weight helps there.

But of course there are instances of 9mm dumping grizzlies, wouldn't be my first choice but it's happened.
 
Some premises here that are a tad skewed.
Handgun defense ammo has not consistently decreased in diameter from larger to smaller. Other than in the most coarse a scale. Sure, no one is much using 11 or 12 mm lead ball over 20-30 grains of black powder. We have smokeless powders that make finer calibers much more functional and reliable.

However, smokeless powders also fueled a trend to very small bores--down to 4.5mm. Until about 1950, most police in Europe carried a .32acp. Carry of .25acp was pretty common, even up to "service" sidearm size. As self-loading pistols began eclipsing revolvers in the 80s we saw ammo get significantly larger even as "wondernine" mania swept through. We saw the 10mm, and the .40SW come out. So, it has not been a linear march to 9x19, which dates to the beginning of the 20th Century.

Then, there's a different disconnect here, too. Handguns, in very round numbers, are getting 100 to 150 grain bullets out to right around 1000fps. Almost all rifles are going to be getting 100 to 150 projectiles out to 2000 & 2500 fps (some 50-100gr ones out to and beyond 3000fps). That's a significant difference in momentum. A 100 gr rifle round at 2800fps just does not compare to a 115gr at 1100fps. Or a 173gr at 2300 rifle round for that matter.

Also, rifle calibers are all over the place, too. From small bores to huge ones. So, it's not like there's a consistent march down in caliber there, either.
 
.30/06 180 Grain=Whitetail. Between my Son and my self 16 Whitetail in 20 years. Never had to track one, never lost one. Tried the .223 Remington Soft Point and had to track a 130 lb. Doe well hit in the heart/lung area for over a mile. I'll stick with what works. IMG_0334.JPG
 
Okay. 9mm minimum for SD against human attacker(s). :thumbup:
Why has this not happened to hunting ammo? Because hunting is not subject to hiring "small stature" and/or not "into" guns. :neener:

Bonus::D
Ask if 9mm (much less 380) is a good choice where a 150-200#+ black bear might be encountered and see what the replies are.
Yet, some people are content to carry 380 (or less) to defend against aggressive, armed and possibly drugged 150-200#+ human.
Put a bullet through a deer, take out both lungs, and the deer still had about 10 seconds of voluntary action.
Same 10 seconds applies to a bear; same 10 seconds applies to a human with lethal but non-cns hits.
Which is why 9mm minimum (with a better HP) and more bullets (capacity) are desirable.
If a caliber would not be sufficient to defend against a black bear, indicative it may be deficient for armed, aggressive human. ;)
 
Why has this not happened to hunting ammo? Because hunting is not subject to hiring "small stature" and/or not "into" guns.
A common misconception.

Anyone can shoot more effectively with a 9 than with a .480.

And in terms of terminal ballistics, more won't help.

Not true at all with tougher animals.
 
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