Morally obligated?

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SaintofKillers

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I would like peoples opinion on this situation.

The other evening I was in a restaurant with my wife and while waiting to be seated, a female patron began making off-color comments about how she was going to "bust a cap in someones ass," if her and her party didnt get seated promptly.

I realized that this was probably just gang-banger wannabe talk, but pushed my wife closer to the exit and positioned myself with a better view of the situation. I also pulled my tshirt up over my carry weapon but left it concealed by the button down shirt I was wearing.

After a bit we were seated. I like to sit facing the door to see who comes in and whats going on as well as taking stock of where the fire exits are in case of a "situation"

Now given the situation, what is ones moral obligation to do something when said female gang banger starts plugging the diners?

I felt that my first and foremost thought is to my safety as well as my ladies. Meaning to head for the exit door or cover as quickly as possible with a mind for defending oneself if necessary. But what about other folks. IMO I dont want to deal with the legal ramifications that come with being "the hero".

Just wanted some thoughts from you all.
 
The general...

concensus around here seems to be to exit stage left and make a good witness for the police....except.... when it happens to be an innocent bystander in a bar 'being a good witness' of a Chicago cop beating the snot out of a petite bartender. In that case the concensus seemed to be that no way should the guy just have stood there and watched, he shoulda got involved and stopped it.

So hard to tell...

migoi
 
Personally, I think that there is indeed a moral obligation to stop it.. though I can understand those with a responsibility to their own family saying that takes precedence.

That said, it doesn't sound like it was anything but trash talking.

-K
 
Seems to me the surest way of making sure your "people" are covered is to kill the obvious badguys before you tell them to run for it...


But thats just a justification. Morally, I don't think I could let it stop with "being a good witness" if I had the ability to stop it.
 
At the end of the day, you gotta be able to look in the mirror and not hate the guy looking back at you.

Whatever decision makes that possible, do that.
 
I am of the camp that says "Stop it if you can safely stop the situation". I mean no innocent bystanders. I am not confident enough in my shooting skills to try to take out someone that had a hostage between me and them. If I'm standing right behind them, different story altogether. There are MANY people on THR (and everywhere else for that matter) that would run like crazy. That is a personal decision. Nothing wrong with that idea. I would not be able to live with myself knowing innocent people died and I might have been able to stop it. I've had a similar conversation on other threads and it comes down to the fact that some lucky people have families to worry about. I do not.
I find it hard to believe anyone would open fire over a long wait at the restaurant, but then again some people walk around all day on "the edge" and it may just take one little simple thing to push them over the edge... Those people usually do not use gangsta lingo and they definitely don't warn anyone either. I would have laughed at her (especially in front of her "friends") but that's just me and it's not THR way. I'm working on it. :eek:
 
.....pushed my wife closer to the exit and positioned myself with a better view of the situation. I also pulled my tshirt up over my carry weapon but left it concealed by the button down shirt I was wearing.

After a bit we were seated.
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I would have left and eaten somewhere else. I may also have called the police to report the incident.
 
Morally? I feel compelled to take care of only myself and my family. The legal question cannot be separated from the moral question. In my state (PRK) I have the legal obligation to retreat from a threat. If, in the investigation that would surely follow, it was determined that retreat was possible and I failed to take advantage of it, then I have placed myself and my family in jeopardy with respect to the criminal and civil consequences of my actions. If I cannot retreat, then the moral question is moot.
 
No Plan Survives First Contact

And so the answer is it depends.

Upon hearing the original outburst, I would be looking to determine whether it was bluster or serious.

If I have family with me and I suspect that this is more than bluster, I'm taking the family out of there. If I can't get out, and stuff happens, then the plan changes.

If it's bluster, or I am fairly certain it is, then I remain watchful and stay positioned for any needed response. If something actually happens, then the plan changes.

If something happens, and I can get my family out, then I do that.

If something happens and I can't get the family out, then I do what I can to secure them and keep them from harm.

If something happens and I have secured the family and I have the opportunity to interdict bad things happening to others, THEN the moral thing kicks in: then, yes, I would act to protect others.

Notice, however, that every one of those sentences starts with "if" -- which means "I don't know."

Most of my scenarios involve getting out and keeping the family away from that risk.

Maybe when I'm issued my badge and take my oath that strategy will change. Until then, I owe first allegiance to my family, then my "fellow man" to the extent that doesn't endanger the family.
 
I have to thank you all for the responses. In retrospect I think that alot of "ifs" had to have taken place as some have said.

I think that I may have felt differently if the mother of my children wasnt with me. Being by myself and not having her to protect would probably put a different spin on things.

The smart thing should have been to leave the restaurant. Even if it was just trash talk which I believe it to have been.
 
The only real obligation you have is to protect your own first; everything after that is voluntary. If the most efficient way to protect your spouse is to drop the threat... well, "so say we all" ;)
 
Considering That I Live in Florida

As soon as the gangsta wannabe showed a weapon making the threat to inflict death or serious bodily injury a reality, I would then begin to operate under the assumption that the threat needed to be stopped at the least danger to me. I would also keep in mind that if a bullet could reach me, the threat remains valid.

Tactically, I would be lining up the shot with all deliberate speed. Movement would be balanced among getting behind cover, not drawing attention to myself by moving when the wannabe would notice and become aware of my presence, and target acquisition.

No warning shots - illegal in Florida. No words said. Maximun surprise to the wannabe. Aim for center of mass.
 
For you people who are not quite sure of your shooting skills in regards to getting the bad guy who has a hostage...practice more please.

However, in the final analysis, if a bad guy has disarmed me and is holding me hostage and you think you may have a shot at him but are worried you might hit me...if you've got more than one round left then make the shot. After you accidentally hit me, kill that son of a gun.

Personally if I've got a choice between that son of a gun dying or me surviving....I'll take him dying...right then, right there.

Hostage takers would all be dead at the scene if I had my way. Best way to prevent future hostage taking. Just let everyone know-if you take a hostage you're a dead man. No ifs, no buts, no but what if's, you take a hostage and you won't get a trial...period.
 
Out the door and 911 - making threats is against the law, and there is usually cell room for at least one more loudmouthed *******.
 
I would like peoples opinion on this situation.

The other evening I was in a restaurant with my wife and while waiting to be seated, a female patron began making off-color comments about how she was going to "bust a cap in someones ass," if her and her party didnt get seated promptly

1. You were waiting to be seat. There was no obligation to stay.
2. You felt threatened enough that you prepared to draw your weapon and take a position that would give you some tactical advantage.
3. Thus, you were preparing to stay in a locale where there was going to be a significant risk of a fire fight and you were preparing to take part.

I guess - I don't get this.

My advice: FLEE in TERROR - WARP 9, BEAM US UP, RAISE THE SHIELDS, START YOUR ENGINES.

If you truly thought there could be a firefight such that you were tuning up for a gun fight (unless you are just posturing here to show your tacticool behavior - sorry), why stay?

The morale obligation is not to stay for the fight but to leave and call the cops from a safe distance.
 
My advice: FLEE in TERROR - WARP 9, BEAM US UP, RAISE THE SHIELDS, START YOUR ENGINES.

If you truly thought there could be a firefight such that you were tuning up for a gun fight (unless you are just posturing here to show your tacticool behavior - sorry), why stay?

The morale obligation is not to stay for the fight but to leave and call the cops from a safe distance.
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+1 on that. I would have gotten the he77 out of there in a hurry. I wouldn't care if I had to go home and eat tuna fish, I 'm not staying around to find out if the trash talker is going to take action.
 
I take care of my family first and formost. I didn't get a permit to be a super hreo, I got it for myself & my family.

I also don't wait anywhere to be to be seated, if the line is over 2 minutes, we go elsewhere. I also know my wife, she'd have been out the door in a flash, no need to shoo her out.
 
And so the answer is it depends.
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That’s the best answer so far. There are too many variables to give a definitive answer, only to say “I might do x if y happened.”

For me, it sounds like trash talk. Was it a 75 year old woman or a 20 year old? Was it said in anger or in jest? I wouldn’t limit myself to leaving just because some woman is joking around to express her frustration to her friends.

If someone were to suddenly start shooting and if I had a clear shot with a reasonable expectation of dropping the assailant without hitting non-players, and if I had the means to prevent innocent people from being gunned down by a lunatic, I would shoot. From what I understand about the law (no, it ain’t much) we’re allowed to draw and fire to prevent a violent felony. I wouldn’t just run and try to be a ‘good witness’ for the cops, I would do unto the other patrons as I would like another to do unto my family if I weren’t there. I don’t consider myself a superhero for having this philosophy.

”But what if it was a cop doing a drug bust? Yes, there are a lot of ‘what ifs’, see the quote above.
 
For you people who are not quite sure of your shooting skills in regards to getting the bad guy who has a hostage...practice more please.
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Just as fast as I can afford Byron. Working OT until I get in trouble for it too. :) I could comfortably take the shot (read with keyboard commando voice) at 7 yards but not 10 or more just yet. Thats all based on paper at the indoor range hence why I am not sure I'd take the shot in real life. I do not underestimate the massive difference between those two situations. But like I said, if he/she was facing the other way, piece of cake.

As for the rest of your post, I've never agreed more! :breathing fresh air:
not trying to hijack... Like I said, someone that's about to open fire most likely won't be telling anyone much less the entire waiting area (unless they are very stupid) beforehand so this scenario is a bit far-fetched.
 
Hrmmm, moral obligation.

I have a moral obligation to keep myself intact (as much as possible) because if I don't have myself I don't have anything.

I took an oath to love and protect my wife.

Being nice to, or protective of, others is optional bonus material.

While this situation was probably teen bluster, my wife and I have established a few subtle key phrases for various situations. Stuff that would sound perfectly normal in a conversation but that can be used to alert each other to developing situations.

For example the phrase "I much prefer a good caesar salad" coming out of my mouth will instantly let my wife know there is trouble and we need to quietly and subtly leave RIGHT NOW. (this isn't the actual phrase we use but you understand my point).

The initial situation also brings up the point that the "bust a cap" female was in a group. -If- it's not just bluster and -if- something bad starts to go down you MUST assume that others in her group will be involved as well so you can't assume that it's a "take her down and we're safe" situation when it's possibly a "all of them vs one of me" situation. That tends to alter MY tactical evaluation and plan of involvement considerably.
 
Discuss your plan with partner.

My girl and I have discussed this before. First order of business is to get her out, Second try and put the scum bag down before they kill innocents. If you do not talk about this first you run the risk of emotions getting in the way. It is already hard enough when you are by yourself.
 
There’s a robbery and shooting at the local eatery. You and your family were just arriving when the gunman announced the robbery and pulled his pistol. You and your family beat feet out of there just as the carnage begins. Several adults and a few children are killed, but you managed to safely escape with your family and the excellent description of the hold-up man you provided to the police lead to his capture and conviction.

Fast forward several years and your new neighbor, who has just moved in next door, stops to speak to you at the fence. He has noticed the handle of your handgun while you were doing yard work and asks you about it. You tell him that you carry all the time and offer to take him to the range to try it out. He seems very interested. During the small talk you mention that your wife has already met his wife a few days ago, you ask him if they have any children that would like to play with your children.

His face falls and he reveals that his son was killed in a restaurant robbery a few years ago, the very robbery you walked in on.

Do you tell him you were there, armed, but you only had a responsibility to your family?

It’s gonna be really fun living next door to that guy.

Is it a moral obligation or a social obligation, or is there even a difference? Does it pass the “if the situation were reversed” test? IOW, would you be pleased to know that a CCW holder fled the scene of your wife’s murder because he or she felt no obligation?

There is no hard and fast rule, every situation will be different. You should have some idea of where you stand though, before the situation is already happening around you.
 
My wife and I have both discussed this. If we have determined that anyone's life is in danger (a gun is drawn or someone is being severely beaten), we will shoot first (if we safely can) and ask questions later. My wife's life has been in immenent danger and only our dogs possibly saved her. Since then there is no question.

You also have to know your state laws - our state law now has the no-retreat clause so as long as someone's life is in danger, it's legal to shoot.
 
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