Morally obligated?

[JesseL]

His face falls and he reveals that his son was killed in a restaurant robbery a few years ago, the very robbery you walked in on.

Do you tell him you were there, armed, but you only had a responsibility to your family?

It’s gonna be really fun living next door to that guy.

Some situations don't have a good outcome - only varying degrees of bad.

I don't want to anything bad happen to anybody, but my first obligation is still always to my family. I will do what I can to help strangers in need as long as I'm not going to run a serious risk of putting my family in danger or leaving my son without a father and my wife without a husband.

I believe in personal responsibility (it's part of why I'm armed), not just for me but for everyone. I don't expect to always have a cop around and no one else should expect to always have a CCW holder around. We don't need sheepdogs, we need armed sheep.

In your hypothetical neighbor scenario, I am no more culpable for failing to save anyone than any other person alive the day of the tragedy.

 

[GEM]

To opine that you risk your children in a gun fight because you might have a neighbor that lost a kid in the same fight is simply ridiculous in evaluating real world actions.

You saved your kids' lives - that's it.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Mainsail,

There’s a robbery and shooting at the local eatery. You and your family were just arriving when the gunman announced the robbery and pulled his pistol. You and your family beat feet out of there just as the carnage begins. Several adults and a few children are killed, but you managed to safely escape with your family and the excellent description of the hold-up man you provided to the police lead to his capture and conviction.

I see no problems so far.

Fast forward several years and your new neighbor, who has just moved in next door, stops to speak to you at the fence. He has noticed the handle of your handgun while you were doing yard work and asks you about it. You tell him that you carry all the time and offer to take him to the range to try it out. He seems very interested. During the small talk you mention that your wife has already met his wife a few days ago, you ask him if they have any children that would like to play with your children. His face falls and he reveals that his son was killed in a restaurant robbery a few years ago, the very robbery you walked in on.

Stranger things have happened. In fact stranger things have happened to me.

Do you tell him you were there, armed, but you only had a responsibility to your family?

What the hell kind of a guilt trip question is that? Armed for personal protection doesn't mean you drag your family into a scenario such as you describe just so you might, MIGHT save the day.

It’s gonna be really fun living next door to that guy.

Might be, after all the theoretical "you" in this scenario did have a direct effect on the identification, arrest, and conviction of the killer. That is a known fact.

Had you played it differently you -might- have saved everyone (ah that Hollywood ending) but you also might be sharing the story of how -your- family was killed there as well or you might not even be there because you wound up facedown in a pool of your own blood while the bad guy got away scott free for lack of witnesses.

Does it pass the “if the situation were reversed” test? IOW, would you be pleased to know that a CCW holder fled the scene of your wife’s murder because he or she felt no obligation?

Sorry, this doesn't hold water. You want the test for this decision to be made based on emotions and feeling and that is what you ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT DO in any situation involving firearms.

There is no hard and fast rule, every situation will be different. You should have some idea of where you stand though, before the situation is already happening around you.

No argument there.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Mainsail

Fast forward several years and your new neighbor, who has just moved in next door, stops to speak to you at the fence. He has noticed the handle of your handgun while you were doing yard work and asks you about it. You tell him that you carry all the time and offer to take him to the range to try it out. He seems very interested. During the small talk you mention that your wife has already met his wife a few days ago, you ask him if they have any children that would like to play with your children. His face falls and he reveals that his son was killed in a restaurant robbery a few years ago, the very robbery you walked in on.

Yeah, man, I remember that day. My family and I got real lucky. We were just walking in when the guy announced the robbery, and I was able to get them out.

I'm really sorry about your son. That really sucks.

If it wasn't for the stupid gun control laws we have, some of the people caught inside with the robber would have had a chance.

We got lucky that time. If we're stuck inside next time, at least there will be one of us armed against the bad guys.

My wife and I both carry now. How about you and your wife?

We try to help everyone we know get armed and trained so they don't have to suffer like that.

We can't be sure we'll always be lucky.​

 

[.45&TKD]

His face falls and he reveals that his son was killed in a restaurant robbery a few years ago, the very robbery you walked in on.

Mainsail, Well then his son should have been armed (or the person responsible for him, if a minor).

My first CCW instructor when asked this question responded that he asks himself the following question:

Will the person you go to save, financially support your family if you are injured, killed or imprisoned coming to that person's defense?

I could imagine a lot of gun hating liberals not even appreciating you coming to their defense, claiming you used excessive force or what not, as witnesses.

 

[Mainsail]

I think you’re missing my point. Speaking only for myself, I know I would have a hard time living with myself if I were sitting in the parking lot (after sneaking out) and watching the carnage while I’m telling the 911 operator my name for the third time. I’m NOT saying I wouldn’t help any minor or unarmed persons in my party to escape.

I’m not criticizing anyone for fleeing, I’m saying that I don’t know if I could do that.

Also mentioned, yes, I know it doesn’t always go down like Hollywood. I carried concealed for over 17 years on airplanes; there are far too many variables to EVER be prepared for every situation. You do the best you can.

 

[JesseL]

I think you’re missing my point. Speaking only for myself, I know I would have a hard time living with myself if I were sitting in the parking lot (after sneaking out) and watching the carnage while I’m telling the 911 operator my name for the third time. I’m NOT saying I wouldn’t help any minor or unarmed persons in my party to escape.

I’m not criticizing anyone for fleeing, I’m saying that I don’t know if I could do that.

This is starting to sound like a good argument for having a rifle in your vehicle.

 

[Mainsail]

To put it another way, I would find it hard to walk away in the same way I would find it hard to abandon my fellow aircrew members and passengers if the SHTF on a mission. It may be the military mindset.

 

[GEM]

An ongoing mission with other military folks is quite a different paradigm from the scenario of having your own kids with you.

As a side note, I recall reading a military article years ago when folks were postulating a Soviet Bloc invasion of Germany through the Fulda Gap (?). There was some concern that the troops and personnel who had their families in German might not show up for the war as they would be driving their spouses and kids to France.

Do you put your family at risk for the abstract good or for others unrelated? Most theories of altruism are fairly clear in thinking that we are wired to save those closest to us first.

 

[James T Thomas]

to be or not to be

This moral adivise is from an ancient Hebrew text. Perhaps it is a little obscure, but I think the message is plain enough.

'Open thy mouth for the dumb; in the cause of all such 'as are appointed to destruction.'

If you still think this scenario is stretched, then research the Luby Restaurant shooting in Killeen, TX.

 

[Mannlicher]

Obligated? I would have just left as soon as the 'lady' made her remarks. Calling the cops on the way out might not be a bad idea.

 

[LightningJoe]

Your first obligation is to your own family. If you're by yourself, you're free to intervene (I guess) although if you get yourself killed or disabled, you're not helping your family any. If you get yourself sued, that could be bad for your family also.

 

[gfouts15]

This is a very enlightening thread. Especially since one of the major arguments used for pro CCW in that it helps stop crime and should reduce mass shootings and save lives. Well, according to a lot here, that means don't bet on CCW holders to stop a threat to the public because they are all going leave if possible. As long as they and their family are safe, let the police handle it.

Not that I am disagreeing with making sure your family is safe first, but once they are safe, I would hope that a CCW holder is going to help protect the public instead of turn their backs on the situation. I guess I am in the minority in that if it is in my power, I am going to try to save lives, even if I pay the price. I talked to my wife about it too and she is in full agreement.

I also accept that it depends on the situation and so this is not a blanket statement but a commitment to lean in that direction first barring reason not to help.

 

[ZeSpectre]

This is a very enlightening thread. Especially since one of the major arguments used for pro CCW in that it helps stop crime and should reduce mass shootings and save lives. Well, according to a lot here, that means don't bet on CCW holders to stop a threat to the public because they are all going leave if possible. As long as they and their family are safe, let the police handle it.

I can see how you'd think that a contradiciton but it's really not. If every person in the scenario were armed, the bad guy would probably have a pretty short crime spree. On the other hand someone -outside- the scenario who has a chance to retreat to safety has every justificaton to do so if they so choose.

Not that I am disagreeing with making sure your family is safe first, but once they are safe, I would hope that a CCW holder is going to help protect the public instead of turn their backs on the situation. I guess I am in the minority in that if it is in my power, I am going to try to save lives, even if I pay the price. I talked to my wife about it too and she is in full agreement.

Have you ever considered that part of your obligation to your family is for you to be there for them? What happens if you are killed and they have to continue on without you. Or imagine that you are crippled in the incident. Do you really imagine that your selfless act is going to cause those you rescued to support you, pay medical bills, etc. for the rest of your life?

What I see as one of the big issues with this entire thread and the "I couldn't live with myself if I walked away" people is that there is a broken sense of problem ownership. The emotional chain seems to go something like this, "Oh that man killed all those people and I might have been able to do something about it, I feel so responsible".

This is like blaming guns for deaths. The only person responsible here is the criminal!

I can tell you for a fact (based on some things that have actually happened in my life) that if a situation develops and my situational evaluation indicates that I have the capacity -and- the opportunity to carry out a decisive and effective response that will end the situation, well then I'll probably do what I can.
BUT
Folks, if you aren't sure about the situation then like it or not the odds are you are NOT going to improve the situation by getting involved and the decision to get involved has to contain as little emotional baggage as possible (yes, I know this is FAR easier said than done).

 

[Mainsail]

Personally I’m a little taken aback by the idea that someone’s wife (or husband) cannot escape without their guidance. When I read, “I’m going to help my wife escape…” I have to wonder if she’s a special-needs wife that cannot function on her own. Children, of course, are a whole other ball of wax.

As I’ve been saying, every situation has too many variables to give a concrete answer. Yes, escape is one of the options, as is standing our ground and fighting. It would be a spot decision based on the events as they unfold.
Should I try to escape?
Is it even possible to escape?
Will my attempt to escape put the shooter’s spotlight on me, thus worsening my situation?
Have I been ‘made’ as a potential protagonist by the shooter?
With the element of surprise being on my side, should I draw and fire or take cover first?

I think also that sometime we make the presumption that we have the luxury of time with which to make an escape. Retreating to safety with several children in tow might not be possible, they do tend to freeze up in scary situations. A snap decision to draw and eliminate the threat may be the only reasonable option available to you, even though escape is only a few yards away.

One cannot simply say, “I’m going to lead my family to safety”, when there is no way to know if such a path will even exist. If you’re prepared to fight, at least that option is open to you as one of the choices. I understand the concept of having a greater responsibility to my family, but for whatever reason (again, maybe the military mindset that you don’t abandon your team or the helpless) I DO feel an obligation to prevent a violent attack if it is in my capability to do so. I can’t say if the obligation is a moral or social one, or both.

 

[gfouts15]

Have you ever considered that part of your obligation to your family is for you to be there for them? What happens if you are killed and they have to continue on without you. Or imagine that you are crippled in the incident. Do you really imagine that your selfless act is going to cause those you rescued to support you, pay medical bills, etc. for the rest of your life?

My obligation is to do the right thing and if there is a consequence to it, so be it. There are risks with everything.

Like I said, it is extremely subjective to talk scenarios since there are a lot of factors. I am not reckless or even absolutely positive that this would be my reaction/action as I have not been put in this situation. My hope is that I would make the right decision when presented with the scenario. Last thing I want to do is freeze up and do nothing. If retreat is the best option, then so be it.

 

[anotherKevin]

This is starting to sound like a good argument for having a rifle in your vehicle.

I wholeheartedly agree. Unless it was an armed barn door shooting up the place, there's little chance I could make much difference with my CCW snubbie. As a parent, my priority would be getting out of there with the kids.

 

[Wheeler]

A few realizations that I have come across over the years;

1. CCW does not liscense you to be everyone's hero.

2. You NEVER rise to the occasion, only default to the highest level of training.

3. Your morals are different than mine, and mine are different than someone else's.

4. In this day and age, you're screwed no matter what you do. If you intervene and would or kill the mouthy gun wielding fill-in-the-blank, you are most likely going to get hit with at least a wrongful death suit from their family. If you don't intervene, People may die or get hurt, and you will have to carry the knowledge with you that you had the means to POSSIBLY prevent those folks from dealing with instant leaks forced upon them by some nefarious character.

5. If you are going to get involved, get FULLY involved. Don't try to hold a gun on them and call 911, do one or the other.

6. If you think you are prepared to make a shot at a moving, jittery, screaming bad person who is waving a gun in a crowd of moving, jittery, screaming people, with one or two that are frozen into inaction most likely right in your line of fire, go back to the range and practice more.

7. Prepare to be taken down by the police when they eventually get there, no matter if you saved 50 lives or not. They will make sure of their safety before they proceed. You have a gun, no matter how well intentioned you are, you are a potential threat to them.

8. After you've been to the range, and practiced again and again on pieces of paper and steel, and know beyond the shadow of a doubt that you can make that shot, ask yourself, WILL you make that shot? There is a lot of difference between pointing a gun at your inanimate target and a person. And remember, that person just might be shooting back.

9. All in all, I would try to help. It's a very subjective thing however. There is no dogma that gives any of us step by step instructions on how to handle there types of situations.

10. One other thought, perhaps we should practice learning to read people half as much as we practice shooting guns. Do you intend to get up and leave every public place you go to because there is some obnoxious, rude, insensitive person? Talking smack is one thing, making serious threats is entirely different.

Wheeler

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

For you people who are not quite sure of your shooting skills in regards to getting the bad guy who has a hostage...practice more please.

However, in the final analysis, if a bad guy has disarmed me and is holding me hostage and you think you may have a shot at him but are worried you might hit me...if you've got more than one round left then make the shot. After you accidentally hit me, kill that son of a gun.

Personally if I've got a choice between that son of a gun dying or me surviving....I'll take him dying...right then, right there.

Hostage takers would all be dead at the scene if I had my way. Best way to prevent future hostage taking. Just let everyone know-if you take a hostage you're a dead man. No ifs, no buts, no but what if's, you take a hostage and you won't get a trial...period.

Wish I'd said that.

 

[dfaugh]

Right, wrong, legal or whatever....I would feel morally obligated to TRY to intervene. To me it's no different than holding the door for someone.

 

[Hokkmike]

I don't know what this environment is like, but it sounds like an obviously stupic thing for her to say and an over reaction on your part.

It is hard to believe how incredibly ignorant people are sometimes!

 

[kennyboy]

I would feel morally obligated. Even if a bunch of legal BS followed, I would not care. I would have a lighter heart if I am punished for saving lives than remained unpunished and knowing that people died because I did nothing because I didn't want to face legal difficulties for my actions.

Just draw that smoke wagon and wade into the assailant. Remember, in that scenario, you have the element of surprise, seeing how she does not know nor suspect that you are armed.

 

[XavierBreath]

The other evening I was in a restaurant with my wife and while waiting to be seated, a female patron began making off-color comments about how she was going to "bust a cap in someones ass," if her and her party didnt get seated promptly.

I would like to know how the management of the restaurant handled the situation.

Did they eject her from the restaurant?

Did they give her a seat?

My actions in this situation would depend a lot on the response of the management. It had not yet reached the point of intervention, just the point of increased observation and alertness.

For me, whether or not a threat is engaged depends more on the availability of escape than it does on the ability to resist. My goal is survival for myself and my family. Yes, I realize there may be a certain moral/ethical conundrum at play. I deal with life and death on a daily basis. I figure I save enough lives that the moral/ethical dilema that comes with preserving my own at the expense of others is mitigated in the end. If I die today in a gunfight, you may lose your life in my hospital tomorrow, because I am not there to save it. Everyone deserves time off from being a hero. Don't like it? Carry your own gun.

BTW, Wheeler.......Darned fine post!

For those who would intervene, at what point would you intervene?
When she talked smack?
When she produced a gun?
When she first shot the gun?
When she first shot a human?

For those who would intervene, when would you seek escape?
When you were out of amunition?
When you were injured?
Never?

For those who would not intervene, when would you intervene?
When you were cornered?
When you were exposed from hiding?
When you were fired upon?
After the first person died?

If you could not escape would you chose to hide rather than fight?

Every response is by it's very nature, a reaction to preceding events. In scenerios such as this, there are no absolutes.

 

[Walkalong]

Unfortunately, where I live this is getting prevelant. If one says anything about it we are a racist. I can complain about white trash and their behavior and something will be done. Complain about black trash behavior and the folks in charge get white as a sheet, scared to do anything for fear of racial reprocussions.

I work with a fellow who thinks he doesn't know what I know because "they taught in code in schools" so black people could not learn. He believes this passionately. He also told us "all white people hate black people, we can't help it, it's the way we are taught growing up" He believes this as well. Everything that does not go his way is racially motivated according to him. There is no way to reason with this kind of convaluted thinking. If he asks me a question and I tell him I don't know, he thinks I am keeping information from him, despite the many things I have taught him and helped him with. He thinks I am a racist even though I have black friends and treat ALL people with kindness and respect 99% of the time. He says I am just doing it for show.

Decent upstanding black people will eventually fix the problem. I just wonder how long it is going to take.

Just my 2 cents, and oh yea, how is this thread gun related?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I would like peoples opinion on this situation.

The other evening I was in a restaurant with my wife and while waiting to be seated, a female patron began making off-color comments about how she was going to "bust a cap in someones ass," if her and her party didnt get seated promptly....

Now given the situation, what is ones moral obligation to do something when said female gang banger starts plugging the diners?

You have no "moral obligation" to put your life on the line for others who have not taken the time to learn to defend themselves, not unless you went to the Superman School of Super Heroes.

In the situation, your moral obligation to defend others was missed at the point when you failed to report the lethal force threats made in your presence, at least to management. You also missed your moral obligation to your wife and yourself egress a potentially bad situation before anything bad happened. Why would you stay there and wait for something to happen?

I think you’re missing my point. Speaking only for myself, I know I would have a hard time living with myself if I were sitting in the parking lot (after sneaking out) and watching the carnage while I’m telling the 911 operator my name for the third time. I’m NOT saying I wouldn’t help any minor or unarmed persons in my party to escape.

That is fine. I never considered getting myself and family to safety as sneaking out, but call it as you will.

What I like about this is that there is this notion that in the situation, being a CCW person and knowing what is developing somehow makes you super-capable. Just how good of a shot are you in the eatery that you can shoot the suspects with all the other patrons moving around and going for cover or exits? Just how well do you know that the immediate threat that you see is the only threat present? If you draw your gun, what is to keep the other CCW folks (unbeknownst to you because of your fixation on the only known threat) in the eatery from confusing you with being another bad guy?

Just how much training have you had in shooting in highly dynamic situations such as a crowded eatery? Remember, you are at the disadvantage in that every one of your shots must hit the threat or a safe backstop. The bad guys are at liberty to shoot anywhere they want.

And finally, I realize it may be difficult to live with yourself for not doing anything, but how will you live with yourself when in the fray, you shoot a fleeing non-combatant who just happens to run across your field of fire as you pull the trigger?

How will you live with yourself when you know you did good by protecting all those other patrons, but in shooting at the attackers, they returned fire and missed you, but killed your wife?