TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier, you watch WAY too much television.
Morally obligated?
- Thread starter SaintofKillers
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If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier, you watch WAY too much television.
GHF
Member
Per Florida Castle Doctrine
In Florida, when she produced a gun.
CHAPTER 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
In Florida, when she produced a gun.
CHAPTER 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
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brownie0486
Member
If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier, you watch WAY too much television
However, thats exactly what John Farnum has students practice in some of his classes, for what thats worth. I don't necessarily agree with his thought process or the idea that he leaves students with the idea they can make that shot under stress, but it is what it is, and he does have train students in this way and they are convinced they can make the shot after that training.
I got this from two different students of Farnums at two different training venues while they were training with me, both unsolicited, so I have to think the above is fact.
Brownie
However, thats exactly what John Farnum has students practice in some of his classes, for what thats worth. I don't necessarily agree with his thought process or the idea that he leaves students with the idea they can make that shot under stress, but it is what it is, and he does have train students in this way and they are convinced they can make the shot after that training.
I got this from two different students of Farnums at two different training venues while they were training with me, both unsolicited, so I have to think the above is fact.
Brownie
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well I've practiced door breaching and solo house clearing in carbine classes too, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
It's a bit of a stretch to think that being taught a technique is the same as endorsing the use of it.
brownie0486
Member
It's a bit of a stretch to think that being taught a technique is the same as endorsing the use of it.
Really-------You seem to be saying, by the above, that if I'm actually spending my money with an instructor who has a finite amount of time, to translate skills to myself and the other students, and we're taking the time to learn this skill, that the instructor is possibly not endorsing it as something fully viable for my civilian butt on the street to actually use?
That he could be purposely wasting my valuable time and limited funds on some skill that he doesn't fully endorse the use of and expect his students to be able to perform after the training?
If thats what you are saying by your above comment, I'm not impressed with your thoughts on the matter here nor the instructors for wasting my time with something he doesn't endorse I potentially use AFTER taking the training and spending my money for his knowledge in that class to better prepare me for the battles I may incur on the street.
Brownie
Really-------You seem to be saying, by the above, that if I'm actually spending my money with an instructor who has a finite amount of time, to translate skills to myself and the other students, and we're taking the time to learn this skill, that the instructor is possibly not endorsing it as something fully viable for my civilian butt on the street to actually use?
That he could be purposely wasting my valuable time and limited funds on some skill that he doesn't fully endorse the use of and expect his students to be able to perform after the training?
If thats what you are saying by your above comment, I'm not impressed with your thoughts on the matter here nor the instructors for wasting my time with something he doesn't endorse I potentially use AFTER taking the training and spending my money for his knowledge in that class to better prepare me for the battles I may incur on the street.
Brownie
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
We're using English here.
Teaching the ABILITY to perform a task is not the same as ENDORSING or RECOMMENDING the use of the task, no.
Knowing how to do something does not mean that you should actually do it.
Having knowledge of MANY techniques allows you to make a decision on WHAT technique to employ in a situation.
THAT is what you are spending your training money on, a "bag of tricks" as it were.
I would hope a trainer teaching you about shooting kidnappers while holding a hostage would also teach what the odd of things working out OK are and WHEN to apply such knowledge. If not, then perhaps you ARE wasting your training dollar. If you have taken a training class where the instructor specifically recommended you shoot a hostage holder, I'd like to hear of it.
There may very well be a situation arise where you have no alternative but to shoot at a kidnapper holding a hostage. That does not mean that the technique is always the first option, or even the fifth.
This thread is about the moral obigation one might feel they are under. Do you feel you are under a moral obligation to take a shot with a small handgun that most police snipers would be worried about?
brownie0486
Member
That he's could be purposely wasting my valuable time and limited funds on some skill that he doesn't fully endorse the use of and expect his students to be able to perform after the training?
We're using English here.
ONE EXTRA comma gets that response from you? Nice-------
I would hope a trainer teaching you about shooting kidnappers while holding a hostage would also teach what the odd of things working out OK are
As I stated previously, that instructor mentioned has his students believing they can make the shot anytime they need to [ and leaving with a false sense of ability to make the shot as they were doing in his classes ]. Hence the other comments I made about that training mindset in those classes.
Do you feel you are under a moral obligation to take a shot with a small handgun that most police snipers would be worried about?
I'm under no obligation, moral or otherwise to do a damned thing. I'm not charged by the description of a job with any response. That however does not preclude what I might or might not do in any given situation based on the circumstances at the time and the particular weapon I may be carrying at the time.
Brownie
We're using English here.
ONE EXTRA comma gets that response from you? Nice-------
I would hope a trainer teaching you about shooting kidnappers while holding a hostage would also teach what the odd of things working out OK are
As I stated previously, that instructor mentioned has his students believing they can make the shot anytime they need to [ and leaving with a false sense of ability to make the shot as they were doing in his classes ]. Hence the other comments I made about that training mindset in those classes.
Do you feel you are under a moral obligation to take a shot with a small handgun that most police snipers would be worried about?
I'm under no obligation, moral or otherwise to do a damned thing. I'm not charged by the description of a job with any response. That however does not preclude what I might or might not do in any given situation based on the circumstances at the time and the particular weapon I may be carrying at the time.
Brownie
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skypirate7
Member
INTRODUCING THE SIX-STEP PROGRAM TO BECOMING A NINJA-HERO ON THE INTERNET
1) Find a black or hispanic guy. Of course, don't call the black guy "black." Call him a "gang-banger." And don't call the hispanic guy "hispanic." Just say "he barely spoke English." This convenient politically-correct terminology helps describe your adversaries in a way that racists can still understand and sympathize with, while at the sametime, enable you to avoid being branded as an overt racist.
2) Closely monitor their conversation and their movements. Sooner or later you'll have something that you can take out of context or blow wildly out of proportion.
3) There we go! That punk just recited the words to the latest Kanye West hit so you MUST go to ALERT LEVEL ORANGE.
4) Be the ultimate ninja. Look for exits and potential cover. Keep your hand on your holster. Flip the safety off your weapon. Remember all of these details so you can tell your buddies on the internet how tacticool you were.
5) Never, under any circumstances, chill out. Practical caution must be replaced with obsessive paranoia. Remember... just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get you.
6) Post your story on the internet and instantly become a NINJA-HERO! Take pleasure in your rightfully earned glory, showering appraisals, and virtual high-fives.
1) Find a black or hispanic guy. Of course, don't call the black guy "black." Call him a "gang-banger." And don't call the hispanic guy "hispanic." Just say "he barely spoke English." This convenient politically-correct terminology helps describe your adversaries in a way that racists can still understand and sympathize with, while at the sametime, enable you to avoid being branded as an overt racist.
2) Closely monitor their conversation and their movements. Sooner or later you'll have something that you can take out of context or blow wildly out of proportion.
3) There we go! That punk just recited the words to the latest Kanye West hit so you MUST go to ALERT LEVEL ORANGE.
4) Be the ultimate ninja. Look for exits and potential cover. Keep your hand on your holster. Flip the safety off your weapon. Remember all of these details so you can tell your buddies on the internet how tacticool you were.
5) Never, under any circumstances, chill out. Practical caution must be replaced with obsessive paranoia. Remember... just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get you.
6) Post your story on the internet and instantly become a NINJA-HERO! Take pleasure in your rightfully earned glory, showering appraisals, and virtual high-fives.
bogie
Member
Now that this dude has blown... Well, I'm not feeling all that politically correct. I don't give a damn what religion one subscribes to...
Get a grip.
SOME of the folks who you are accusing of internet Ninja-ism (now try saying that real fast? dang, but I feel dirty somehow now...) have been there, done that... While you're whining and moaning about how you're being oppressed, they've been out there, making sure that you can be _comfortably_ oppressed.
Now for the thread...
If someone's making a lot of that kinda noise, that means that either they're a drama-queen (and they exist in all umpty sexes...), or that they're about to do something that'll make you have nightmares. Sometimes folks have to work themselves up to the ol' ultraviolence. You can make superficial judgements based upon environment and appearance ($500 restaurant, scantily clad blonde drama queen vs. Burga Deth and a meth head), but that only goes so far...
Doesn't hurt to be ready for the worst-case scenario. Probably won't happen, but then again I am also the kinda guy who looks for fire exits, fire extinguishers, etc., etc.
But I'd talk to the manager, and let him/her know your concerns. Maybe the drama queen will become persona non grata...
But she's probably better looking than you are...
Get a grip.
SOME of the folks who you are accusing of internet Ninja-ism (now try saying that real fast? dang, but I feel dirty somehow now...) have been there, done that... While you're whining and moaning about how you're being oppressed, they've been out there, making sure that you can be _comfortably_ oppressed.
Now for the thread...
If someone's making a lot of that kinda noise, that means that either they're a drama-queen (and they exist in all umpty sexes...), or that they're about to do something that'll make you have nightmares. Sometimes folks have to work themselves up to the ol' ultraviolence. You can make superficial judgements based upon environment and appearance ($500 restaurant, scantily clad blonde drama queen vs. Burga Deth and a meth head), but that only goes so far...
Doesn't hurt to be ready for the worst-case scenario. Probably won't happen, but then again I am also the kinda guy who looks for fire exits, fire extinguishers, etc., etc.
But I'd talk to the manager, and let him/her know your concerns. Maybe the drama queen will become persona non grata...
But she's probably better looking than you are...
skypirate7
Member
Right, because I don't see how religion has anything to do with this thread.
Seriously, *** are you talking about? Oppression? Are you implying that me being Muslim has ANYTHING to do with this thread? Your post seems to reveal so much subconscious crap that Freud is probably rolling in his grave.
Here we go...
If I had a dollar for everytime I heard somebody mention in public the word "gun," "shoot," "kill," "shank," or anything else that could be interpreted as remotely violent, I'd be a millionaire.
We've all seen our share of "shady" individuals. And yes, some of us (myself included) paid extra attention in case of danger. Fortunately, 99.99% of the time NOTHING HAPPENS.
You move on with your life. You don't write a novel on the internet everytime somebody spooks you. If it actually ended up being a life-and-death situation, then yes, we'd like to hear about it. But if it's just some girl at a Denny's who said "I feel like I want to pop a cap in somebody's ass," who cares? Don't blow it widely out of proportion. It's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue about this idiocy.
Sure, be ready for the worst case scenario, but don't **** a brick everytime some "gangsta" looking dude starts rapping. OMG HE SAID GUN *** CHEEZEBURGAR!!!11 I TOTALLY GOT REDY TO SHOOT HIM ROFL LOLZ!
If they're making a ruckus, fine, you can tell the manager to ask them to quiet down. On the otherhand, if you're butting into their conversation, chill out. Be alert... but don't go crazy. You aren't Jack Bauer so stop pretending that everytime you eat out, the guys on the other side of the restaurant are Al-Qaeda or Columbian Cartel or Russian Mafia.
Damien45
Member
That is one of the best answers period.
That being said. I would agree with some of the posts here. Since it was a "vocal threat" prior to you having committed to eating at the place (having been seated), I would have left and called the threat in.
However, IF (the magic word) someone was to open their intent (proceed to engage in a violent felony) in a place I was at with a date (or family, ect.) I would engage with force. My philosophy is this: danger in public equals danger to me. I don't know that person, nor their intentions. I have no idea if it is focused or random. I have a reasonable chance of stopping people from getting hurt, so I must stop it.
To me, it's not about being a hero, it's about not being a victim. Should I get confronted with a violent crime, to do nothing is the same as being compliant. Protection of myself, family and others is a must.
XavierBreath
Member
Regardless of who we are, I see this as a general uncertainty of segments of society we are not familiar with. It often manifests in fear as perceptions are judged and conclusions wrongly arrived at. Fear often causes us to react emotionally rather than rationally.
For our Black, Hispanic and Muslim friends here, let's suppose you are having coffee on a road trip passing through rural Mississippi. You are alone in a country diner of the type that litter the area selling breakfast to loggers, farmers and the local gentry. Looking out the window, you notice a group of ten or eleven rough looking, and loud white men arriving in two beater pick-up trucks. One gets a crow bar out of the toolbox, another gets a hatchet. One other gets a rope. You notice the rifles and shotguns on the rear window gun racks. Two men enter the front door to quietly speak to the manager, and he glances over at you.
Do you experience a sense of alarm? Dread? Uncertainty? Are they here because you are? Chances are, they are there to help a friend unstick his truck in the woods behind the place. Perhaps that friend is the manager, and he was simply counting patrons so he would know if he could close the place up for thirty minutes to go rescue his truck. How can you be sure? Do you prepare mentally or not?
We are not talking about racism here. We are talking about mental preparation for events that may quickly swing out of control for any of us. When we are "the other" placed in an unfamiliar environment or circumstance, we sometimes make bad judgements. Acting with caution when the circumstances are unfamiliar should not brand a person a racist.
We are friends here. The best antidote for unsubstantiated and poor conclusions is more familiarity about the environment or circumstance. We can reach logical and correct conclusions when we are familiar with the situations, cultures and environments we are thrust into. Nobody is perfect, nobody knows everything, but most of us can avoid conflict by erring on the side of caution when we are in unfamiliar circumstances.
For our Black, Hispanic and Muslim friends here, let's suppose you are having coffee on a road trip passing through rural Mississippi. You are alone in a country diner of the type that litter the area selling breakfast to loggers, farmers and the local gentry. Looking out the window, you notice a group of ten or eleven rough looking, and loud white men arriving in two beater pick-up trucks. One gets a crow bar out of the toolbox, another gets a hatchet. One other gets a rope. You notice the rifles and shotguns on the rear window gun racks. Two men enter the front door to quietly speak to the manager, and he glances over at you.
Do you experience a sense of alarm? Dread? Uncertainty? Are they here because you are? Chances are, they are there to help a friend unstick his truck in the woods behind the place. Perhaps that friend is the manager, and he was simply counting patrons so he would know if he could close the place up for thirty minutes to go rescue his truck. How can you be sure? Do you prepare mentally or not?
We are not talking about racism here. We are talking about mental preparation for events that may quickly swing out of control for any of us. When we are "the other" placed in an unfamiliar environment or circumstance, we sometimes make bad judgements. Acting with caution when the circumstances are unfamiliar should not brand a person a racist.
We are friends here. The best antidote for unsubstantiated and poor conclusions is more familiarity about the environment or circumstance. We can reach logical and correct conclusions when we are familiar with the situations, cultures and environments we are thrust into. Nobody is perfect, nobody knows everything, but most of us can avoid conflict by erring on the side of caution when we are in unfamiliar circumstances.
boredelmo
member
I dont want to be a victim, i dont want my family to be victims.
I would stop the threat if i were capable. I dont see how some people can live their lives knowing that they let another ones vanish.
There are Good Samaritan Laws in some places that state you must render aid in some situations. Although a stipulation is that you dont have to put yourselves in harms way. Sometihng to bring up in any case.
I guess im the "Hero" type, but dang i just can't do without saving someone when it is in my capacity to do so. I spose i watched too many Batman cartoons or hero movies but thats just how i am. If my wife and child were in danger, i would hope some of you guys would them out, because i would def help you out.
Remember Kitty Genovese.
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
I would stop the threat if i were capable. I dont see how some people can live their lives knowing that they let another ones vanish.
There are Good Samaritan Laws in some places that state you must render aid in some situations. Although a stipulation is that you dont have to put yourselves in harms way. Sometihng to bring up in any case.
I guess im the "Hero" type, but dang i just can't do without saving someone when it is in my capacity to do so. I spose i watched too many Batman cartoons or hero movies but thats just how i am. If my wife and child were in danger, i would hope some of you guys would them out, because i would def help you out.
Remember Kitty Genovese.
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
skypirate7
Member
It was my understanding that the female in question didn't direct the threat directly to him, but was merely talking to the waiter and other members of her party and was probably just joking. But if someone said to you "I'm going to pop a cap in your ass" then that's a totally different story.
Now then, if I was in some backwater diner and some country boys started bringing out rope, I wouldn't care. If they had hatchets and crowbars, I would wonder what they were doing. If they had guns, you can bet I'd be alert. But in this instance, the female wasn't getting physical nor did she show a gun. So I think your analogy is a little out-of-scale. Truthfully, being a white guy myself (don't assume all Muslims are dark or tan), I'd blend right in with the rest of the country folks. My Muslim friends jokingly call me the "redneck Muslim."
I understand, and I hope I didn't offend anybody. Please realize that I wrote the "Six Steps" purely in jest. I see so many of these kinds of threads and I thought it was pretty funny.
Occasionally, there is some racism. Some people do have "agendas," whether it is against blacks or Mexican immigrants and they use these stories to propogate their fears and hatred. However, the majority of comments which can be interpreted as racist are unintentional. Let's face it, people are naturally afraid of people who appear different them. They might not necessarily hate somebody who is black or speaks a different language, but because they are different and not what they are used to dealing with, they tend to exaggerate threats. For example, the group of Imams that were removed from U.S. Airways a few months ago. If it had been a group of white priests who were chatting together in the aisle, maybe reciting a passage from the Bible, and a couple of them criticized the Iraq War, nobody would have cared. Same thing if it was a college basketball team. People would brush it off. But when you get people with a different religion, different culture, and maybe different clothes, people can get freaked out at even minor things.
That's my point here. I think this guy got all worked up for nothing.
bogie
Member
Well, it wasn't a group of roman catholics who appropriated four improvised cruise missiles loaded with people and jet fuel either...
Like it or not, you are going to be forever tainted by their actions. So you blame us for being just a trifle skittish? Blame them.
If it'd been a batch of Mormons who'd done it, people'd be freaking out over guys wearing black ties and short-sleeved dress shirts (would someone PLEASE tell someone that there is no such thing as a short sleeved dress shirt... they just look silly). That's just the way people are.
But hey, we're more likely to run into the average critter... Lowlifes tend to work themselves up to violence - it is not natural for a lot of folks. They have to get the adrenaline going; they have to get the HATE going. How are you going to feel if one second you dismiss someone as merely talking trash, and the next they shoot three people, two of whom were on the the other side of the restaurant?
I'm guessing you're in a major city (I did about 20 years in central St. Louis myself...), and this sort of trash talk is normal to you. It _sure_ isn't where I live now. If someone's going on like that in the restaurants out here in red-vote country, you start to see hands going under tables.
Best option: Leave the scene. If you are living in a place that has a potential for inherent danger, move when you get the chance. Sorry, but that's pretty much the best choice. Other than that, either resign yourself preparing to defend yourself or come to grips with your victim status, and hope that none of them maim or kill you.
Like it or not, you are going to be forever tainted by their actions. So you blame us for being just a trifle skittish? Blame them.
If it'd been a batch of Mormons who'd done it, people'd be freaking out over guys wearing black ties and short-sleeved dress shirts (would someone PLEASE tell someone that there is no such thing as a short sleeved dress shirt... they just look silly). That's just the way people are.
But hey, we're more likely to run into the average critter... Lowlifes tend to work themselves up to violence - it is not natural for a lot of folks. They have to get the adrenaline going; they have to get the HATE going. How are you going to feel if one second you dismiss someone as merely talking trash, and the next they shoot three people, two of whom were on the the other side of the restaurant?
I'm guessing you're in a major city (I did about 20 years in central St. Louis myself...), and this sort of trash talk is normal to you. It _sure_ isn't where I live now. If someone's going on like that in the restaurants out here in red-vote country, you start to see hands going under tables.
Best option: Leave the scene. If you are living in a place that has a potential for inherent danger, move when you get the chance. Sorry, but that's pretty much the best choice. Other than that, either resign yourself preparing to defend yourself or come to grips with your victim status, and hope that none of them maim or kill you.
bogie
Member
Oh yeah - this just came to mind as I was reaching into my hall closet to get a towel for my morning shower...
I grew up in a series of what are basically old farm houses. When I open a closet, even in a relatively new comfy house in the 'burbs, I _still_ almost expect something to come scurrying out...
Hey, something like that happens once, it messes with you for a LONG time...
(twitch, twitch, twitch...)
I grew up in a series of what are basically old farm houses. When I open a closet, even in a relatively new comfy house in the 'burbs, I _still_ almost expect something to come scurrying out...
Hey, something like that happens once, it messes with you for a LONG time...
(twitch, twitch, twitch...)
brownie0486
Member
I think we should all remember that ANYONE at ANYTIME can become an unwitting party to violence forced upon people around us or ourselves pretty damned quickly in this country today.
Just watch the news, somewhere, someplace, at any given time, normal folks going about their business are trapped into any number of potentially violent or violent situations daily.
The world has been a dangerous place for a long time. It's not getting any better on a daily basis, and we are subjected to potentially anything from robbery/muggings to house invasions/breakins to quasi terr threats or worse.
Evil is all around us, it's that most of us do not or would not recognize it for what it is until it has reared it's ugly head and the fight is on. It's the nature of the beast. Knowing that the beast potentially lurks around every corner we turn, is not conducive to ging about our own intended business like we are living in la la land here.
Consequently, people are more vigilant of their surroundings if they are smart and paying attention to the way things are and not just sticking their heads in the sand trying to ignore it hoping it will not reach out and bite their own butts, and well they should be vigilant IMO.
People prepare for the worst and hope for the best if they are observant and have the means to keep the beast at bay. As much as you try, train etc, the beast can still just walk up to you and bite your head off at any time.
Err on the side of caution when something doesn't look right, when something brings more than the normal day to day activities. You just never know when it will come to you or close to you and you have to make decisions and take actions to avoid or stop that beast.
I'm not alive by accident, nor do I take the measures that put the odds more in the beast favor than my own.
I'm an equal opportunity profiler from way back. I find it works from years of working on the streets and listening to that little bird when it starts to sing.
Brownie
Just watch the news, somewhere, someplace, at any given time, normal folks going about their business are trapped into any number of potentially violent or violent situations daily.
The world has been a dangerous place for a long time. It's not getting any better on a daily basis, and we are subjected to potentially anything from robbery/muggings to house invasions/breakins to quasi terr threats or worse.
Evil is all around us, it's that most of us do not or would not recognize it for what it is until it has reared it's ugly head and the fight is on. It's the nature of the beast. Knowing that the beast potentially lurks around every corner we turn, is not conducive to ging about our own intended business like we are living in la la land here.
Consequently, people are more vigilant of their surroundings if they are smart and paying attention to the way things are and not just sticking their heads in the sand trying to ignore it hoping it will not reach out and bite their own butts, and well they should be vigilant IMO.
People prepare for the worst and hope for the best if they are observant and have the means to keep the beast at bay. As much as you try, train etc, the beast can still just walk up to you and bite your head off at any time.
Err on the side of caution when something doesn't look right, when something brings more than the normal day to day activities. You just never know when it will come to you or close to you and you have to make decisions and take actions to avoid or stop that beast.
I'm not alive by accident, nor do I take the measures that put the odds more in the beast favor than my own.
I'm an equal opportunity profiler from way back.
I find it works from years of working on the streets and listening to that little bird when it starts to sing.Brownie
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Actually that had nothing to do with the comma, it had to do wih the confusion between TEACHING someone something, and RECOMMENDING that they use it.
2 different words with very different meanings.
I could give 2 squats about comma usage and I apologize if it sounded like I was being a grammar Nazi.
The quote that started this for me was the assertion that folks that could not make the head shot at a hostage holding dirtbag need to retrain before "hitting the streets" with their concealed snubby.
I maintain that is a completely ridiculous assertion.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Doubletap
toivo
Member
Risks versus benefits. Nobody wants to be the one who let the innocent people die. But do you want to be the one who shot the hostage by accident?
Bottom line is that it's impossible to say what you'd do until you're there. It all boils down to whether you'd have a clear shot and whether you'd take it if you did. Too many variables to accurately predict that one.
Bottom line is that it's impossible to say what you'd do until you're there. It all boils down to whether you'd have a clear shot and whether you'd take it if you did. Too many variables to accurately predict that one.
brownie0486
Member
TexasRifleman,
Your comment here:
If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier, you watch WAY too much television.
led to my stating this:
However, thats exactly what John Farnum has students practice in some of his classes, for what thats worth. I don't necessarily agree with his thought process or the idea that he leaves students with the idea they can make that shot under stress, but it is what it is, and he does have train students in this way and they are convinced they can make the shot after that training.
Seems I was agreeing with you that "If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier"
To which you then took off on a tangent about it had to do wih the confusion between TEACHING someone something, and RECOMMENDING that they use it.
I don't believe it should be practiced for or taught by instructors to civilians. It leads them to believe they can make the shot. It requires precision, and you can learn to precision shoot [ make tiny little groups ] without having it put in the context of taking a hostage shot.
You see, teaching someone to make the hostage shot is having them practice for that skill-ergo-directly recommending they attempt to take the shot when presented with that type of situation and perhaps more importantly, their believing they can make it based on their prior training.
Brownie
Your comment here:
If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier, you watch WAY too much television.
led to my stating this:
However, thats exactly what John Farnum has students practice in some of his classes, for what thats worth. I don't necessarily agree with his thought process or the idea that he leaves students with the idea they can make that shot under stress, but it is what it is, and he does have train students in this way and they are convinced they can make the shot after that training.
Seems I was agreeing with you that "If you think that shooting at someone who has a hostage is a good idea, and should be practiced for by the average concealed handgun carrier"
To which you then took off on a tangent about it had to do wih the confusion between TEACHING someone something, and RECOMMENDING that they use it.
I don't believe it should be practiced for or taught by instructors to civilians. It leads them to believe they can make the shot. It requires precision, and you can learn to precision shoot [ make tiny little groups ] without having it put in the context of taking a hostage shot.
You see, teaching someone to make the hostage shot is having them practice for that skill-ergo-directly recommending they attempt to take the shot when presented with that type of situation and perhaps more importantly, their believing they can make it based on their prior training.
Brownie
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Funny, I don't see how some people have managed to live their lives this long without taking measures to learn how to keep their own lives from vanishing.
WeThePeople
Member
First rule - should be your cardinal rule - if you truly feel that you are threatened in a public place, just leave. You're packing heat in the name of self-defense. You're not a police officer with a duty to society. Your duty is to your family. Get them out of the situation.
Second rule - if there is a TRUE threat and you can save a life without putting others in danger: breathe, relax, aim, squeeze.
It sounds as if you heard some words and were immediately thinking "gun." In my honest opinion, you put the cart before the horse. You should have left and contacted the authorities if you truly felt that there was a threat. If there had been a threat, you would have saved more lives that way.
Second rule - if there is a TRUE threat and you can save a life without putting others in danger: breathe, relax, aim, squeeze.
It sounds as if you heard some words and were immediately thinking "gun." In my honest opinion, you put the cart before the horse. You should have left and contacted the authorities if you truly felt that there was a threat. If there had been a threat, you would have saved more lives that way.
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+1000
If I am with my wife and / or kids, I will opted to take an armed retreat to make sure my wife and kids are safe before I start shooting anything. If some BG gets in the way, then the shooting starts sooner then expected.
Call me cruel but my family's lives comes first before strangers.
If I'm alone and I can take a clean, simple shot to end a bad event, I probably just take it.
+1000
If I am with my wife and / or kids, I will opted to take an armed retreat to make sure my wife and kids are safe before I start shooting anything. If some BG gets in the way, then the shooting starts sooner then expected.
Call me cruel but my family's lives comes first before strangers.
If I'm alone and I can take a clean, simple shot to end a bad event, I probably just take it.
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