Deanimator
Member
For anyone interested, there's a very good article by Massad Ayoob in the current issue of "Combat Handguns". It provides even more evidence that FMJ is a poor choice for self-defense, especially in crowded urban areas.
More Evidence Against FMJs
- Thread starter Deanimator
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Hardtarget
Member
I understand about the over penetration worry. However, there is so much information regrading the very low "hits per rounds fired", It seems a moot point. Those misses are moving at good velocity...not impeded by passing through the BG. Seems those miss directed shots are the greater danger to the innocent.
Don't let my thoughts worry you...I'm probably wrong.
Mark
Just to fully disclose my thoughts on this...I only carry large cavity hollow point ammo. I don't want to hit any bystander with lead...I'm OK with empty brass.
Don't let my thoughts worry you...I'm probably wrong.
Mark
Just to fully disclose my thoughts on this...I only carry large cavity hollow point ammo. I don't want to hit any bystander with lead...I'm OK with empty brass.
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Ed Ames
Member
Does the world actually need more evidence?
Personally, I believe FMJ exists. I love FMJ. I have more FMJ than everything else put together.
And, like anything else, it should only be used where appropriate. Is that news?
Personally, I believe FMJ exists. I love FMJ. I have more FMJ than everything else put together.
And, like anything else, it should only be used where appropriate. Is that news?
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Danger of Hardball Defense Ammo Alert
Written by Massad Ayoob. Author Archive »
Over-penetrating bullets create unintended victims!
One critical rule of firearms safety is that the bullet must stay in its intended backstop. No responsible shooter would go to one of the older indoor shooting ranges that has a warning poster saying “LEAD BULLETS ONLY, JACKETED BULLETS CAN PIERCE BACKSTOP” and then proceed to pump hard-jacketed bullets into that frail backing.
On the street, the only safe backstop for the defensive handgun’s bullets is the body of the offender. Therefore, it is not exactly responsible to be firing bullets that are likely to shoot through and through the assailant. This is one of the main reasons law enforcement in its virtual entirety has gone to expanding-bullet handgun ammunition in this country. It was a lesson written in blood.
... for more on this pick up the May 2008 issue of Combat Handguns
Written by Massad Ayoob. Author Archive »
Over-penetrating bullets create unintended victims!
One critical rule of firearms safety is that the bullet must stay in its intended backstop. No responsible shooter would go to one of the older indoor shooting ranges that has a warning poster saying “LEAD BULLETS ONLY, JACKETED BULLETS CAN PIERCE BACKSTOP” and then proceed to pump hard-jacketed bullets into that frail backing.
On the street, the only safe backstop for the defensive handgun’s bullets is the body of the offender. Therefore, it is not exactly responsible to be firing bullets that are likely to shoot through and through the assailant. This is one of the main reasons law enforcement in its virtual entirety has gone to expanding-bullet handgun ammunition in this country. It was a lesson written in blood.
... for more on this pick up the May 2008 issue of Combat Handguns
Gouranga
Member
yeah I have 4 good reasons to NOT use FMJ for home defense. John, Melanie, Deanna, and Angie. Those are my neighbors 2 adults, 2 kids. They are downrange from the most likely line I would be firing on should someone gain entry to my home. Every miss I have, or any round that goes through the BG, has an inch of flagstone (if I don't hit a groutline), then insulation, pressboard, and masonite siding before it travels approx 40 ft. and enters their home and endangers their lives.
If I hurt one of them, I would not forgive myself.
If I hurt one of them, I would not forgive myself.
C-grunt
Member
Ive seen several cases where HPs have completely penetrated people. Usually didnt penetrate much else after that though. If a opened HP can still penetrate someone on a somewhat regular basis, Id bet FMJ is still clippin along at a god rate.
mljdeckard
Member
I agree and I carry JHP ammo, but at the same time, I never assume that the shots I fire into an attacker will STOP in the attacker. I ALWAYS assume that they will hit what is BEHIND the attacker as well.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Do any of the gelatin tests people use to determine over-penetration simulate a person with 50-75(or more) extra lbs of body fat and a winter coat?
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
No, and they also don't account for bones, muscle. or the different consistencies of various organs. They're all done from 10 feet away usually - even rifle ones - which is pretty pointless as I'd say the real interest for rifle shots is 100, 200, 300, etc.
Ballistics gel is cool for the effects, and to get a general idea, but even the fanciest ones don't use very realistic conditions.
makarovnik
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Go ahead and be a name dropper but it depends what caliber we're talking about. With slow moving bullets (especially the small light ones) I'll take FMJ over HP any day.
What will you do when your older autoloader chokes on a hollowpoint during a gun fight? Yeah tap and rack, good luck with that one.
Now with .357 and 9mm etc I agree that HP are best but blanket statements like that don't wash with me. I don't care who is telling the story. I guess that means I'm stubborn and can't be convinced no matter what. Talk about a worn out subject.
What will you do when your older autoloader chokes on a hollowpoint during a gun fight? Yeah tap and rack, good luck with that one.
Now with .357 and 9mm etc I agree that HP are best but blanket statements like that don't wash with me. I don't care who is telling the story. I guess that means I'm stubborn and can't be convinced no matter what. Talk about a worn out subject.
TCB in TN
Member
In that little .32auto more penetration would seem to be a good thing! How about in the .380? I don't have the credentials to question Mr. Ayoob (I also enjoy and appreciate his writings), but I too feel like those always and never statements can be a little off base from time to time.
I would be more inclined to phase it, that care must be taken when choosing a self defense round.
I would be more inclined to phase it, that care must be taken when choosing a self defense round.
Oddly, I had this exact epiphany during a home-invasion a couple years back. I lived in a 1920's house with thin walls, and I knew the neighbor's bedroom and newborn baby were on the "backstop" side of the house where I'd have to shoot the intruder. I ended up not taking a shot because I couldn't be sure I'd not miss and send some rounds through the side of the house/window and into the next house. The BG ran out the back door, leaving behind all my electonics (strewn on the floor). The next day I went out and bought the best expanding HP's I could find.
I would agree with the posters who say that generalization is a bad thing. In .380, .32 etc fmj is, imo, the only way to go. A HP is just not going to get into the boiler room and stop anyone. OTOH a .45acp hardball seems to work just fine. I always carry HP for defense anyway but there are times and occasions where fmj is not a bad idea.
But as often as I hear the story of "over-penetration killing the person in the next county" I seldom if ever see actual occurances of this. Let's face it, most personal protection situations happen in secluded places where there aren't many people around. Little bullet, big sky seems to be the rule.
Ayoob has an unfortunate tendency to generalize from a small database. I still remember threads on why reloading your own defense ammo is bad--based on 3 very questionable cases.
But as often as I hear the story of "over-penetration killing the person in the next county" I seldom if ever see actual occurances of this. Let's face it, most personal protection situations happen in secluded places where there aren't many people around. Little bullet, big sky seems to be the rule.
Ayoob has an unfortunate tendency to generalize from a small database. I still remember threads on why reloading your own defense ammo is bad--based on 3 very questionable cases.
bdickens
Member
Ya know what? It isn't 1957 any more. They started making autoloaders that reliably feed hollowpoints now.
OP
OP
Deanimator
Member
Why are you trying to defend yourself with a firearm that you can't trust to function reliably with ammunition that's appropriate for the task?
OP
OP
Deanimator
Member
In a .32acp, enough gun would seem like a good thing. I've never owned a .32acp firearm. I can't say I'd never own one. I can say I'd never carry one for self-defense. The smallest thing I carry is a J frame smith loaded with 158gr. LSWC-HP +Ps.
I'm not interested in a bad solution to a self-created problem.
That has to be the mindset, especially in HD, regardless of type ammo/bullet is used.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I use hardball in my .45acp SD Ruger P90 and will continue to do so.
OP
OP
Deanimator
Member
Including the occasional bystander on the opposite side of your assailant.
Why would anyone NOT want to take reasonable measures to lessen the likelihood of that happening?
Because most attacks take place in crowded places like subways and restaurants where people are milling around waiting to see what's gonna happen.
Fairbairn and Sykes report about a guy shot 6 times with a .455 Webley, not exactly an over powered cartridge. All shots went clean through and attacker was stopped by officer beating him on the head with the revolver. No word as to other people killed by over-penetrating rounds.
This seems like one of those concerns that can get overblown pretty quickly.
OP
OP
Deanimator
Member
And what brand of lead hollowpoints or JHPs were fired out of that .455 Webley?
It probably wasn't your intent to make my point for me...
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