If you don't have the presence of mind, then you may want to second guess yourself as far as being able to hit the bad guy or carry a firearm at all. Are you saying that you are not even going to have the presence of mind to use the sights, either? Other than a retention position, obviously, but even if in a retention position you are still going to be aiming (hopefully) at an upward angle. If that is the case my argument for this being a training issue has been even more reaffirmed. Equipment can never supersede training.
More Evidence Against FMJs
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mljdeckard
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Everyone needs to undersrtand.
You are ALWAYS responsible for EVERYTHING your bullets hit. On the range, in a defensive shooting, in WAR. There are no exceptions.
You are ALWAYS responsible for EVERYTHING your bullets hit. On the range, in a defensive shooting, in WAR. There are no exceptions.
FMJ penetrates more than JHP. We should consider this in our choice of ammo.
Gotcha.
This is why I don't buy any of the gun rags anymore.
Gotcha.
This is why I don't buy any of the gun rags anymore.
OP
OP
No, there's not, just evidence of an attempt to mitigate the known danger.
You're going to be held liable. What may be affected are punitive damages if any.
I'd rather not pay ANY damages. If my bullet stays in my assailant, there won't be, at least not here in Ohio.
I'd rather pay compensatory damages than compensatory damages AND punitive damages. I'm betting that stating that I used JHPs to lessen danger to bystanders will sound a lot better to a jury than, "All I care about is penetration. I don't care WHO gets penetrated."
There are reasons that pretty much every law enforcement agency in the U. S. uses JHP ammunition.
Again I ask, where is the data that shows a .32acp in FMJ will over penetrate? All of the "data" I have looked at shows that in the .32acp HPs either open to quickly and don't provide an appropriate level of penetration, or don't get enough speed to open up at all.
In winter, in say Alaska or Minn. I say go FMJ. It was not uncommon in Conn. for me to sometimes wear thermals, thick padded jeans on bottom and thermal, sweater and then parka on top. In Alaska or Minn. the layers may be even thicker. Not saying the JHP won't expand but you want those extra inches of penetration.
I remember being in the Birmingham Airport a few months after 9-11. Many AL NG members patrolling a crowded airport with M16s that I assume are loaded with FMJ.
Also, if the prowess of the one female soldier that stood out is any indication of skill, I was indeed worried for collateral damage.
She was about 5ft 1 inches tall about 105 pounds. Had her weapon slung over her back SLING UNDER RIGHT armpit crossing over back. Completely inaccessible. Oh, that ain't all. She had both hands tied up with a bag of Mickie D's and a drink. But she was at a post watching passerbys. She was then relieved (I guess to go eat) and walked out and SCRAPED her rifle's Bbl accross a concrete column. She proceeded oblivious on her way much to my horror and to another (I must assume) gun savvy passenger waiting in line.
Can you imagine her cutting loose with the 556 FMJ?
I remember being in the Birmingham Airport a few months after 9-11. Many AL NG members patrolling a crowded airport with M16s that I assume are loaded with FMJ.
Also, if the prowess of the one female soldier that stood out is any indication of skill, I was indeed worried for collateral damage.
She was about 5ft 1 inches tall about 105 pounds. Had her weapon slung over her back SLING UNDER RIGHT armpit crossing over back. Completely inaccessible. Oh, that ain't all. She had both hands tied up with a bag of Mickie D's and a drink. But she was at a post watching passerbys. She was then relieved (I guess to go eat) and walked out and SCRAPED her rifle's Bbl accross a concrete column. She proceeded oblivious on her way much to my horror and to another (I must assume) gun savvy passenger waiting in line.
Can you imagine her cutting loose with the 556 FMJ?
mljdeckard
Member
TCB, we have the other side in here arguing that tiny calibers are fine for personal defense. Why would you carry a round if you don't think that it will penetrate at least 12" of ballistic gel?
Here's the reality. (Again.) There is no guarantee for any bullet of any kind. A .308 might hit a bone and shatter. A .22 might get lucky with a through-and-through. NO GUARANTEES.
Here's the reality. (Again.) There is no guarantee for any bullet of any kind. A .308 might hit a bone and shatter. A .22 might get lucky with a through-and-through. NO GUARANTEES.
danez71
Member
(edited)
1) Oh brother. Thats a contradiction. You've been claiming that by using HP's you would be able to use a defense of 'attempting to mitigate the dangers of a FMJ going through'. Presenting "evidence of an attempt to mitigate the known danger" is in fact a defense. Whether for or against HP or FMJ. Cant you even see that? Why else would a defense attorney present evidence other than to defend his client?
2) But we bere talking if your HP went through. Anyways, say you miss all together (I think recent stats were like 30% dont hit the intended target in SD situation). Uh oh.... now you put everyone at GREATER danger because now you have an organ blending HP flying around instead of a standard FMJ. Poor little Susies spleen now looks like trail mix, or maybe dead, all because you chose to use the most damaging and lethal type of bullet. Good choice!
3) Why would a defense attorney phrase it that way? Go ahead and bet that. Thats your choice as it would be someone elses choice of saying (two can play this game) "I was only using common NON-specialized FMJ instead of the KNOWN organ ripping death ensuring specialized magic man killer HP"
You own arguement works against you and you dont even realize it.
As I said before, the courts decide, not you.
D-man keeps saying there is NO reason to use FMJ, I have already given one example of why the lowly .32acp was my best option. I don't really feel the need to go into it again. BUT there are a number of reasons that people choose smaller caliber whether anyone on here agrees with them or not! The main point I am getting at is that these ALWAYS and NEVER conversations are seldom constructive!
Yup with you TCB. When absolutes are bandied about then its never a good thing, because there's no room for compromise on an absolute position, it's either right or wrong. People don't like to be wrong...
Some people do! I demand that you retra... sorry, couldn't resist.
The only really strong argument I've seen here is that you'll REALLY regret shooting someone who wasn't attacking you, and how that happens (whether via excess penetration, missed shots, or simple stupidity) really doesn't matter.
Beyond that it's up to you to pick the best ammo for your environment, and penetration is a factor in that choice.
Magazine writers need to sell words even when they really have nothing new to say. That leads to a bunch of "fear this!" articles that may or may not be worth the ink to print them.
I could not care less what kind of bullets you or anyone else chooses to use - only that they know how to use them. Indeed, if you have a smaller caliber pistol, FMJ may be what you need - likewise, if you have a 357 magnum, and live in an apartment complex made of sticks and drywall, then you may want to look into HPs. Ammo choice is not the question. I am concerned with your disregard for the safety of anyone but yourself. Personally, if I had the choice of shooting the BG, knowing that there was another person behind them (given I am carrying a weapon with adequate power to pass completely through the BG and into a bystander), especially a child (almost exclusively a child) I would reconsider taking the shot. Say what you want, but I will allow myself to be killed by a BG before I kill an innocent child - a childs life, in it's innocence, is worth more than my own. Call me old fashioned.....
There's a lot of guys still stuck in 1957 around here. There's been a lot of improvements in the design of both firearms and ammunition since then.
In the 3rd world countries where Hp is either not available or illegal, the FMJ seems to work fine. Evidently they didn't get the word. this from another site:
I do carry HP, but don't necessarily feel less armed if FMJ is all I can get (and premium HP are scarce in some areas).
caliber and load specific
I choose FMJ in 380, JHP in other bigger/faster/hotter
I don't do 45acp, but might do FMJ in that fatter/heavier/slower cartridge, but would have to study on that some before really deciding
over penetration matters, no matter that poor hits likely will go on through regardless, good hits need not go on through, I see no point in not acknowledging that, and at least give some responsible consideration to minimizing potential collateral damage
I choose FMJ in 380, JHP in other bigger/faster/hotter
I don't do 45acp, but might do FMJ in that fatter/heavier/slower cartridge, but would have to study on that some before really deciding
over penetration matters, no matter that poor hits likely will go on through regardless, good hits need not go on through, I see no point in not acknowledging that, and at least give some responsible consideration to minimizing potential collateral damage
Not sure if it's been posted or not, but are there any real world statistics regarding injuries/deaths involving over penetration? Not someone shooting wildly and hitting a bystander, but actually going through partitions, vehicles, BG's, etc. and striking unintended victims?
huntsman
Member
All I'm saying is when the time comes to fire I doubt you'll have the time to make that decision.
I don't have a disregard for safety (mine or anybody else’s) I just have an understanding what drawing and firing a gun in public really is about and I'm square with that in my mind.
There are many things to consider when choosing the proper cartridge for your gun but I wouldn't base that decision solely on the fear of excessive penetration of the bullet.
mljdeckard
Member
Yes. Every time you fire you must assess if the situation is acceptable. The risk may well be minimal. But there might also exist circumstances where you are in a crowded environment and have to take a shot. I started a thread in here a while ago suggesting that it is a good idea to train and have the option to take a knee when you shoot, to try to put the bullet in a high trajectory. I was generally told no, it's not worth it, but I still think it should be a tool in your bag.
This is why training is critical, and if you think you have enough, you are wrong. The circumstances will never be simple. You need to learn to move and shoot, not just to minimize yourself as a target, but also to set up your shot. If you don't have the shot, you may need to GET the shot. Like Clint Smith says, "If you’re not shootin’, you should be loadin’. If you’re not loadin’, you should be movin’. If you’re not movin’, someone’s gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."
Fights are dynamic, and you will sink to your lowest level of training.
This is why training is critical, and if you think you have enough, you are wrong. The circumstances will never be simple. You need to learn to move and shoot, not just to minimize yourself as a target, but also to set up your shot. If you don't have the shot, you may need to GET the shot. Like Clint Smith says, "If you’re not shootin’, you should be loadin’. If you’re not loadin’, you should be movin’. If you’re not movin’, someone’s gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."
Fights are dynamic, and you will sink to your lowest level of training.
Yes, but a miss with a JHP that strikes an innocent bystander will cause their head to explode from massive shock trauma, whereas the non-lethal FMJ would simply pass thru an innocent bystander leaving a neglible non-lethal wound channel easily repaired with some duck tape and aspirin. :roll eyes:
These ARE bullets being fired here. Any of them could be lethal if you miss.
These ARE bullets being fired here. Any of them could be lethal if you miss.
I am a firm believer of JHPs in almost all cases but either bullet has the capability to pass through. If I was in a crowd or unsure of my backstop I practice either closing the distance and firing at a downward angle or dropping to my back and firing at an upward angle to try to avoid collateral damage.
It has long been known by the initiate that full metal jacket ammunition will pass through the human body.
Lots of us know the dangers of them. The shooter doesn't know he is hitting the bad guy and the bad guy could at the time not know he is getting a clip full.
I am not getting into the finer points of caliber, vs speed vs fatso.
The best thing to do is educate the public one shooter at a time.
Lots of us know the dangers of them. The shooter doesn't know he is hitting the bad guy and the bad guy could at the time not know he is getting a clip full.
I am not getting into the finer points of caliber, vs speed vs fatso.
The best thing to do is educate the public one shooter at a time.
My take on this is that if you fear the overpenetration of FMJ pistol rounds, you need to forget using shotgun slugs, or high powered rifles for self defense. Both have a tendency to penetrate deeper, and shoot further, than handguns. Seems illogical and inconsistent to limit ammo for handguns when using even more powerful rounds for the long guns.
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