Mossberg Just in Case at the Range

[Dave McCracken]

There must be something to ownership of a PGO that precludes ownership of a timer.

In all these years, no PGO-ista has posted any numbers.

Nor has any PGO fan posted that he/she fired a COF with his PGO and with the regular stock on the same shotgun and compared the times, split and otherwise.

You'd think they'd be happy to cite some real world data to back up their opinions.

But they haven't.....

This whole Donnybrook is not about Alpha Male head butting or "Mine is Better". It's about providing real world data to folks who may be staking the lives of their families on the validity of that information.

IMO, those using PGOs and urging others to do so have not tested the effectiveness of the equipment sufficiently.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Let's come up with situations where a PGO may be useful and replicate them on the range. The PGO crowd'll have hard data to back up their claim if they're correct, and it'll be a day on the range in any event. I have targets suitable for buckshot and rifle rounds and a place to set things up.

 

[GigaBuist]

I seem to think there is a general consensus that pumps are more reliable,more able to work with varying ammo, and generally quick enough for gunfighting long as it has a stock. But wholely un suited to shotgun GAMES. It does not track, for me.

Pump guns aren't recommended for games because an O/U will do everything one needs in a game and do it better. You'll never have to fire more than 2 shots in clay games, and when it comes to something like sporting clays you're trying to get on that 2nd target, which is about 5" across and doing 45mph, as fast as you can.

Contrast that with HD and you're looking at a large "target" that can't move more than maybe 10mph. Easier to hit. Having a pump gun that holds 5+1 (or whatever) is more important than getting off your 2nd, and final, shot pretty quickly. At least that's how I take it.

I also wonder if there is the same gun cost/snobbery with SD/HD guns?

Not here. I don't think we go more than 3-4 days before one of the old-time residents of the board recommends an 870 to a newbie for a good general purpose (including SD/HD) shotgun.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I don't currently have a PGO shotgun, but it sounds like I should be able to pick one up pretty reasonable. I'm going to have to exercise my rights to own a gun, I didn't know I needed until someone told me it was useless and stupid and overated. I had one about 1984, Mossberg Persuader, grip, stock and long and short barrel. for about $180 at Coast to Coast. I shot it for a while with just the pistol grip. then I think I put the stock on for pheasant hunting,
don't remember why, I guess I thought it would work bette......oh my god.
I've been brainwashed.No, I remember now it looked silly with the 28" barrel and PG. Whew.

 

[Kendal Black]

Of course the question is not whether I can shoot a PGO as well or as fast as a shotgun with a proper buttstock. I already know the answer to that.

The question I needed to explore was simply, and only, how well could I shoot the PGO? Something to do with trains, planes and automobiles.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Kendal, by dint of frequent practice, I attained a decent level of expertise with a folder shot from the hip like a PGO. Running the same shells through a standard shotgun would have seen me become absolutely deadly.

Ruger, you forgot the reason you wanted the stock back on your shotgun.

You wanted to hit things with it......

 

[lobo9er]

Furthermore, never have I seen a "serious" PGO advocate attempt to even test his notions of shotgun effectiveness under timed circumstances.
__________________

I dont think anyone here has said a PGO is Better. Ony that they can be managable.

 

[Justin]

Pump guns aren't recommended for games because an O/U will do everything one needs in a game and do it better.

I don't own any O/U shotguns. My competition shotgun is a Benelli M2 that has been modified to more or less my satisfaction for practical shooting competitions.

Among 3 Gun shooters, those who choose to shoot in Tactical and Open divisions mostly run semi-auto shotguns because they're easier and generally faster to run than a pump-action shotgun. Given a reasonable amount of ammo testing, and they're quite reliable.

Those who opt to compete in the He-Man or Heavy Metal divisions have to run pump-action shotguns, and I've seen some competitors who are extremely good at running a pump gun, including ones who would probably be faster with a pump than I am with a semi-auto.

Contrast that with HD and you're looking at a large "target" that can't move more than maybe 10mph. Easier to hit. Having a pump gun that holds 5+1 (or whatever) is more important than getting off your 2nd, and final, shot pretty quickly. At least that's how I take it.

Many of the targets in 3 Gun are steel poppers that fall when shot. They don't even move. If the PGO shotguns actually offered an advantage, or were at only a slight competitive disadvantage, people would run them.

 

[Justin]

I dont think anyone here has said a PGO is Better. Ony that they can be managable.

This statement begs the question:

If a PGO shotgun is not equal to or better than a regular shotgun, why on Earth would you choose one as weapon to defend yourself or your family?

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

OOOOOO KKKKKKKKKay. Your right Dave. Your right Dave...Your right Dave,,, oh ,thought of one,... shooting prone from a bathtub with a periscope.
Or defending against a pack of wild dogs...
Anti carjack gun,
King of the RV smack down,
Tunnel Rats,
armored car defense,
1 ARMED guy, in a ass kicking contest.

Would one of youse guys, more eloquent than me talk some of the Jello blasters into putting a slide rule to this, I'd do it but, I'm more of a left brain creative kind of guy. I think my results would be skewed....yeah I'd cheat a lot.


Sorry guys "why would you use one to defend your family" was my pump gun good for clays argument, I should have known it would come back to bite me.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Or defending against a pack of wild dogs...

Multiple moving targets on the ground ask for accuracy and rate of fire, so a minor caliber semi auto rifle or stocked semi shotgun makes the most sense here.

Anti carjack gun,

The confines of a car require a pistol in this instance.

King of the RV smack down,

for shooting RV's, I think a lahti or solothurn 20mm would work best.

Tunnel Rats,

a simple garden hose will suffice.

armored car defense,

again, the preferred method of dispatching armored cars is a lahti or solothurn, provided you are out of carl gustav rounds and have no air support.

 

[lobo9er]

If a PGO shotgun is not equal to or better than a regular shotgun, why on Earth would you choose one as weapon to defend yourself or your family?

so basically no one can discuss a Pistol grip shotgun with this type of comment.
The OP wasnt about the ultimate HD shotgun his friend bought.

 

[Frozen North]

Some feel PGO shotguns are worthy of ridicule. That is what this thread and every other PGO thread turn into. PGO shotguns tread dangerously close to zombie gun-tactical ninja gun territory. I would venture to say that zombie/ninja stuff is the number one pet peeve of many users of this board.

Start a thread on Extreme Shock ammo, see what that turns into....

 

[dondavis3]

I think some of you are entirely missing the point of the whole kit.

It has a cylinder bore 18" barrel and the pistol grip is so that it will fit in the tube.

Your right with the pistol grip, it will be a hand full to shoot.

But it's an emergency gun only, kinda bury it in the yard type thing.

Tube filled with emergency rations type stuff.

One won't be shooting clays or anything much - if at all.

It's meant as a <deleted> rig as I understand it.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Thanks for reminding me, watched Zombieland again last weekend, and all I could do was critique the heroines choice of PGO shotgun. Made the whole movie scenario kind of unrealistic.

Andrew Wyatt I like your sense of humor.

How bout when Woody runs 8 mags each through his 1911s and then kisses the slide in appreciation,without branding his lip, thats not going to happen in the real world.

 

[dondavis3]

@ Ruger Mc

 

[Frozen North]

I love Zombieland... especially the part with Bill Murray.

Why would you critique the use of a PGO shotgun against zombies? A sawd off scattergun with a pistol grip is the most effective zombie gun ever!

 

[Kendal Black]

I dont think anyone here has said a PGO is Better. Ony that they can be managable.

This statement begs the question:

If a PGO shotgun is not equal to or better than a regular shotgun, why on Earth would you choose one as weapon to defend yourself or your family?

The question begs an answer. Are there situations where the PGO shotgun is better than a pistol? This may depend on the skills of the operator, but I would say yes, there are such situations.

Are there situations where a full sized shotgun is impractical, leaving the choice between a pistol and a bob job shotgun? Or in which a pistol is legally prohibited but a PGO shotgun is all right?

I would say yes, having encountered both. Again, the ground of reasoned choice here is not between the properly stocked shotgun and the PGO, but between a PGO and no shotgun.

But, one may ask, what about a folding stock? I have mixed feelings about that gadget. I suppose it is all right if you never fold it. If you fold it you have a PGO at best, and a bigger, clumsier one, less convenient to carry or to stow, with doodads sticking out. Some of these stocks make operating the shotgun very awkward when they are folded. (Some are not much better when unfolded.) Unfolding the stock when you discover the need to shoot throws away time. So, never fold it and you are good to go.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

you are ahead on time if you unfold the stock and use the sights vs shooting from the hip and missing.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Why would you critique the use of a PGO shotgun against zombies? A sawd off scattergun with a pistol grip is the most effective zombie gun ever!

Wichita was armed with a PGO shotgun. she ended up treed in a carnival ride and had to be saved by an 8 year old with a .22 and a nerd with a coach gun. This is not a sterling reccomendation.

 

[olderguns2]

I like to leaving the range with my PG so I can turn back towards my buddies lower my oakleys and say,,,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,

I'll BE BACK,

 

[Sam1911]

I wouldn't categorically rule a warning shot out, especially if I was in a rural area where it wouldn't necessarily be unsafe or even all that frowned upon by local LEO's... because there are still some who figure if you're twenty miles from help and the problem got solved without a fatality, that's good enough.
Then again, I am from rural Pennsylvania.

Oh really?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536150
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=593967

PA may be firearms heaven, but warning shots are still a bad idea.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Oh really?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536150
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=593967

PA may be firearms heaven, but warning shots are still a bad idea.

I forgot about that, I thought I remembered reading a thread where an accidental warning shot ended in charges being filed against the shooter. I live in an area where the DA's office is generally friendly towards self defense shootings, but I still wouldn't dare risk a warning shot.

Wichita was armed with a PGO shotgun. she ended up treed in a carnival ride and had to be saved by an 8 year old with a .22 and a nerd with a coach gun. This is not a sterling reccomendation.

That is just hilarious!

The question begs an answer. Are there situations where the PGO shotgun is better than a pistol? This may depend on the skills of the operator, but I would say yes, there are such situations.

I'd like to hear these examples for my own curiosity. The pistol being prohibited makes it an interesting discussion. When you start getting into tight spaces where people seem to think stocks make it awkard, you still have to swing that pgo around.

The OAL of a PGO Mossberg 500 is 28 3/4", where as the length of a collapsed 16" ar15 is a mere 3" more (at least with a magpul ctr stock it is). It just seems to me that the PGO is never the best choice, nor is it ever the only choice and that it always leaves much to be desired. Even with 12 gauge buckshot, you're not always talking about a magic one shot stop so you need follow up shots and a fast handling/transitioning weapon. I can't see a PGO fulfilling that role, or ever being the best alternative. YMMV

If I'm going to bury something on my property "just in case," I'll buy my own section of PVC and bury something with a stock and lots of hunting ammo.

 

[Sam1911]

If I'm going to bury something on my property "just in case," I'll buy my own section of PVC and bury something with a stock and lots of hunting ammo.

I used to keep an SKS in a little bag. With the trigger group removed the stock and barreled receiver broken apart it the package was something like 28" long, and could be reassmebled in about 5 seconds. Just for comparison.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

My son had a Mossberg with buttstock and pistol grip. It wore the pistol grip for one range session. Both of us just instinctively way shot low pointing from the hip with the pistol grip.

But if all you have heard is hideous negativity about PG shotguns, and you actually try one and it is not as bad as you have heard, you might see a small niche use for one.

That "Just In Case" case reminds me of a larger version of the Olin marine signal flare case. Not a bury in the back forty for SHTF or postKarina, but a convenient carry case for just in case. Apparently it comes with a multitool and obligatory "childproof lock" good for securing a bicycle (bicycle accidents are more likely to kill kids than gun accidents). Suspect there would be room in that tube for first aid supplies, granola bars and MRE entrees too. Maybe even a buttstock and long shank screwdriver.