Mossberg Just in Case at the Range

[dondavis3]

Well like a guy on another forum said ...

He paid $299 for his Mossberg 500 & loves it.

$20 more for all the other stuff makes it a good buy for him.

A jake leg made up kit from home depot would cost more than that and not be anywhere near as high quality.

I went to Academy Sport & Outdoor and saw the whole kit yesterday.

I was impressed with everything.

Except I'd add a lot of other emergency stuff to the tube (there's room)

Still don't have the foggiest idea if I'm gonna get one

All though I'm sure some of the law a bidding citizens of New Orleans would liked to have this after Katrina.

 

[ForumSurfer]

But if all you have heard is hideous negativity about PG shotguns, and you actually try one and it is not as bad as you have heard, you might see a small niche use for one.

I have tried one. I see no niche for it other than "just because." "Just because" is fine by me, I have a few items in that category...but I'll never bet my life on them or encourage others to do so. PGO's just never seems to be the optimal solution and always leave much to be desired. If all I needed was one shot, I would consider one...but for home defense, personal defense, vehicle defense or any defense I prefer something more capable...even in the same price range there are better options.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Except I'd add a lot of other emergency stuff to the tube (there's room)

if there's room for more stuff, there's likely room for a folder. everybody wins.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I feel sort of silly for not taking into account the suitability of a gun for burying.
I always kind of envisioned I would just hold it.
With maybe a lillie in the other hand.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I feel sort of silly for not taking into account the suitability of a gun for burying

Ok, here's a cheap shot...The PGO is mostly to look cool to some people and to shoot for fun, Mossberg knows this so they started selling them "ready to bury" since that is a good use. The ad doesn't mention digging them back up.



I've owned a few guns that would fulfill that role, also.

 

[Robert]

The ad doesn't mention digging them back up.

For the win!

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I think back to the first one I ever saw, I think was an Ithaca 37 20 gauge. Recommended for police use. Maybe if it was 20 gauge it would be better?

 

[Panzercat]

Not sure why all the pistol grip hate here. Laser/flashlight/trigger switch combos are common place and will maintain a highly manuverable package. 00 shot isn't going to kill your arm, though slugs will start to set you back after a few.



Yes, that damn sword again.
The blackhawk stock is mainly for prolonged slug plinking. I normally kept it in 'cruiser' mode.

 

[lobo9er]

A laser mounted on a pgo would negate some of those accurracy issues in lower light situations.

 

[DAdams]

Imagine my surprise after returning from a couple days of travel to find this thread at five pages.

I'll just iterate again a couple of my initial comments:

I recommended against the purchase of the JIC in favor of something with a stock. That recommendation was based on heresay and not experience.

To my surprise the recoil, albeit with 2 3/4 number seven was light and the item managable. That after round one, I could put (pump) the remaining four rounds quickly and with decent accuracy downrange. Now none of this may be "new" news to many, any or most of us, it was just a new experience for me that proved to be much less dramatic than I expected, even with the light load, no stock and short barrel.

If the JIC Stainless were available back in my sailing/boating days (obviously it could have been created) it would have been a decent store it in the settee to repel boarders or subdue unruly pelagics. Arrrggghh.

 

[goon]

Oh really?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536150
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=593967

PA may be firearms heaven, but warning shots are still a bad idea.

In every single possible scenario that could ever possibly exist in which you might use a gun for self-defense, a warning shot is a bad idea?
Meaning you'd rather shoot someone every single time and you could never possibly concieve of a reason to scare them off without bloodshed, EVER?
Especially birdshot. Hunters and competition shooters shoot tens of thousands if not millions of rounds of it into the year every year. If it's so unsafe to fire it into the air (or into a backstop), why aren't we prosecuting them for something?

In principle I agree with those who argue that if you're justified in shooting you should be shooting to stop someone, but my mind is only so big and I'm only so smart. The world is a big place and situations arise that we couldn't possibly anticipate from time to time.
To say it's generally not a good idea is true. To say that a warning shot in a populated area is a usually a bad idea is true - every round you fire is your responsibility and under normal cirucumstances we have laws against discharging fireamrs to consider. What about an extreme circumstance - like maybe a scenario where a natural disaster has stretched emergency resources to the breaking point and you're entirely on your own? I don't know that a situation where a warning shot would be a rational could occur under such circumstances, but I concede that it is possible. If I read an account of a citizen or police officer from New Orleans firing a round of birdshot into the ground in his yard to scare off looters during the aftermath of Katrina I wouldn't condemn him for that.

To say that anything (warning shot or otherwise) could never, ever possibly be an acceptable solution under any circumstances seems a bit arrogant to me because I don't know what the future holds. Others are entitled to their opinions.

To sort of get back on topic, would a short double barrel coach gun add the needed compact size and a stock? IIRC, because they have a more compact action they are generally shorter than a pump or semi-auto with the same barrel length.
And if so, is a coach gun a better defensive tool than a PG pump action shotgun?

 

[dondavis3]

@ Panzercat

I agree with you.

I work with and shoot with our local police department.

They have several Mossberg / Remington 870's equipped with pistol grips.

They are all 12 gauge - I've shot them numerous times - female officers shoot them at qualifying.

The recoil is just not that bad.

But to each his own.

 

[goon]

How does one sight a PG shotgun? Are you guys just kind of aiming from the hip or can you kind of lift it to your face and sight down the barrel? Seems to me that would be a bad idea, but I've never shot one. Only thing I've ever shot like that was a Mossberg with a folder, so I tried a few with the stock folded just because I was seventeen and it seemed like the thing to do at the time.

But can you sight down the barrel of a PG 12 gauge loaded with buck or slugs and fire accurately or is that just a way to make your dentist rich?
Serious question - my experience is kind of limited with shotguns.

 

[Sam1911]

How does one sight a PG shotgun? Are you guys just kind of aiming from the hip or can you kind of lift it to your face and sight down the barrel? ... But can you sight down the barrel of a PG 12 gauge loaded with buck or slugs and fire accurately or is that just a way to make your dentist rich

The manuals that come with them tell you never to hold them up in front of your face.

If you use a strong, two-handed grip (though I've done it with one) that warning is a little overblown. The gun isn't going to hurt you. That would be the most accurate way to shoot one if you really had to -- in other words to try to mimic the way you'd hold a full-stocked one, and sight down the rib/barrel. It's actually quite easy with light target loads and maybe a bit more "attention-getting" with 3" slugs.

The way they're "intended" to be used is from the hip, which is really a misnomer. Grip the pistol grip with your strong hand and pull it in tight against the side of your rib cage, just below your pectoral muscle. Put the other hand out on the forearm and try to hold it more or less level. (Obviously this is nowhere near your hips.) Then use your body index to point it where you want the shot to go. If you're facing the target, the gun will/should be pointing at the target, probably high or low, but with practice, good enough at very short range. Very similar to firing a pistol "from retention."

With practice you can probably be half as fast -- or half as accurate, but probably not both at once -- with one as you can with a full-stocked shotgun, as long as you're keeping shots to about half the distance. So the challenge is to decide if your reason for choosing the compact size is compelling enough to give up the speed and accuracy benefits of the standard platform.

For me it definitely wasn't. For some, it is.

 

[Kendal Black]

The question begs an answer. Are there situations where the PGO shotgun is better than a pistol? This may depend on the skills of the operator, but I would say yes, there are such situations.

I'd like to hear these examples for my own curiosity. The pistol being prohibited makes it an interesting discussion. When you start getting into tight spaces where people seem to think stocks make it awkard, you still have to swing that pgo around.

In my experience, anyway, the PGO's compactness advantage is mostly in convenient and/or discreet transport, not so much in the handling qualities in cramped spaces. If a shotgun has a stock on it you can put the stock underneath your arm if you need to shorten the over all projection of the weapon.

There are exceptions, to do with gun handling inside vehicles or the like, where the total length of the gun becomes an issue. I would think such situations very rare. At least, I have never needed to aim a shotgun from a car or a Piper Cub.

The shortness of the PGO is, though, convenient when entering or leaving autos, small planes and so on.

Now, as to where and why such a weapon would be better than a pistol, of course it is better where the law prohibits a pistol but not a shotgun. Are there other instances where it would be a better bet? --Let us say you may have a pistol if you like, would you ever prefer the PGO shotgun?

If you believe you cannot hit anything with the PGO setup, you would of course say no, and if you believe you can't, you can't! You won't find out how, and so you are perfectly correct in saying you can't. Your argument is therefore irrefutable, so I won't argue.

If, on the contrary, you can hit what you're shooting at with the PGO, the question changes to one of terminal ballistics, in which question the 12 gauge shell does much better than the usual pistol rounds.

Personally, I figured out a long time ago that I am happier and have a better outlook on life if I have a shotgun available wherever I go. That is what led to my interest in the PGO and my experiments with it. But nowadays I am thinking it might be a better plan to take along a short double barrel gun, one with a buttstock, taken down.

 

[goon]

If you use a strong, two-handed grip (though I've done it with one) that warning is a little overblown. The gun isn't going to hurt you. That would be the most accurate way to shoot one if you really had to -- in other words to try to mimic the way you'd hold a full-stocked one, and sight down the rib/barrel. It's actually quite easy with light target loads and maybe a bit more "attention-getting" with 3" slugs.

Understood. I'd think that with a 20 gauge one shouldn't be too hard to control, but I also know that a few boxes of slugs out of a light 20 gauge can still get your attention. And if you're holding it up and sighting down the barrel, why not just use a stock?

In looking at these guns on Mossberg's site, it seems that they are as much about marketing as anything. They seem to not be targeted at those of us who have a lot of experience with firearms - we know what we need and probably have it already anyhow. I think their target market is people who have realized that the world isn't all sunshine and bunny rabbits, especially looking at all the disaster scenarios occuring all over the world, and want do so something to feel protected and prepared.
Unfortunately, this may prevent them from making more meaningful efforts about their day to day protection as well as preparedness for a disaster. Just buying a gun (one that may not be the most effective at that) and sticking the tube that it comes in in the back of your closet doesn't make you adequately protected. At a minimum, we all know that practice is necessary. I'll even admit I could probably benefit a lot from an Appleseed shoot or two for rifle marksmanship and some kind of training for defensive handgun use and there are probably many others on here who could honestly make the same criticisms of themselves. So I can't imagine how someone with little to no gun experience could be prepared by buying a JIC and locking it up in the proverbial "glass case only to be broken in the event of war."
But at least it's a shift in thinking - and that's something. Not much... but something.

 

[Justin]

If you believe you cannot hit anything with the PGO setup, you would of course say no, and if you believe you can't, you can't! You won't find out how, and so you are perfectly correct in saying you can't. Your argument is therefore irrefutable, so I won't argue.

After the last iteration of this discussion, I actually bought a pistol grip for my shotgun and did a bit of testing at the range. Additionally, I've fired rounds through a Serbu Super Shorty under competition conditions.

I found that with a riot gun with a PG, if I indexed it on my hip, I was able to make reasonable hits at close range.

However, this didn't negate the fact that the gun was slower to cycle and "aim" than a proper shotgun.

Additionally, while it may be possible to learn to shoot a PGO shotgun with some level of accuracy by indexing the weapon against your body in a particular way, you'll have trouble engaging a target if you have to do so from behind cover, a nontraditional position, prone, through a port, rollover prone, etc.

If, on the contrary, you can hit what you're shooting at with the PGO, the question changes to one of terminal ballistics, in which question the 12 gauge shell does much better than the usual pistol rounds.

This gets back to what I spoke of earlier when I pointed out that PGO advocates stop thinking after the first shot. What happens if you miss? What happens if there are multiple targets? What happens if you have to take a shot that requires a modicum of precision?

Just about anyone can take a PGO shotgun loaded with birdshot and hit close-range targets on a square range during a sunny Saturday afternoon. The same can be said for derringers, mare's legs, and AK/AR-style pistols.

But what happens when the situation is different?

 

[Kendal Black]

If you use a strong, two-handed grip (though I've done it with one) that warning is a little overblown. The gun isn't going to hurt you. That would be the most accurate way to shoot one if you really had to -- in other words to try to mimic the way you'd hold a full-stocked one, and sight down the rib/barrel. It's actually quite easy with light target loads and maybe a bit more "attention-getting" with 3" slugs.

I use a variation on this. The right hand holds the pistol grip, the left hand holds onto the receiver from underneath* and both hands hold on tight! The left shoulder is somewhat toward the target and both arms are extended fully, but the elbows are not locked. Draw a bead on your target and touch 'er off.

Of course the disadvantage is you cannot hold onto the forearm to pump the weapon, so your next shot is not prompt. As Sam1911 indicates, this sort of scheme is half-fast. But it will get the hits.

I have another method that allows faster cycling of the gun. This is the one I need to do the video to show properly. A written description might not be clear enough, leading some to do it wrong, hurt themselves and blame me!

--------------------
* Examine your shotgun to determine just where to hold on--pick a place where no parts will nick or pinch you. Bear in mind that many pump shotguns will kick open part way when fired without a hand gripping the forearm.

 

[Kendal Black]

I found that with a riot gun with a PG, if I indexed it on my hip, I was able to make reasonable hits at close range.

However, this didn't negate the fact that the gun was slower to cycle and "aim" than a proper shotgun.

Additionally, while it may be possible to learn to shoot a PGO shotgun with some level of accuracy by indexing the weapon against your body in a particular way, you'll have trouble engaging a target if you have to do so from behind cover, a nontraditional position, prone, through a port, rollover prone, etc.

I've never liked body indexed firing, myself. I think it works for some people better than others, but not all that well for anybody.

I like some sort of visual index even if the gun is below eye level. If you put the barrel where you can see it, not at eye level in this case but well below it, left shoulder somewhat toward the target, you can index the barrel visually beneath the target. That gets you on for deflection and now the problem is only one of elevation.

Another halfway solution, I'm afraid, but whaddya want? I solved half your problem!

 

[Sam1911]

In looking at these guns on Mossberg's site, it seems that they are as much about marketing as anything.

Oh, please do review Mossberg's breacher-"choke" versions, and the "Roadblocker," and the "Rolling Thunder" -- and then tell me they give half a squeak about utility, realistic use, appropriateness to some definable task ... or their own reputation among serious-minded shooters.

Gotta admit though, the video-game kids are about the only folks with disposable income left ... their marketing department is probably certified genius.

 

[Kendal Black]

... their marketing department is probably certified genius.

There's even a hidden bonus--they're going to clean up in the buttstock business once Joe Customer figures out what he's got...a shotgun without a stock. They may be the only people with a sound stock market strategy.

 

[lobo9er]

If you believe you cannot hit anything with the PGO setup, you would of course say no, and if you believe you can't, you can't! You won't find out how, and so you are perfectly correct in saying you can't. Your argument is therefore irrefutable, so I won't argue.

this is a good quote

Gotta admit though, the video-game kids are about the only folks with disposable income left ... their marketing department is probably certified genius.

the chain saw grip

 

[Panzercat]

Meh, the pistol grip topic is becoming overblown with the whole its better this way and that way and that's the rule.

At minute of room ranges it'll hardly matter and I can almost guarantee anybody who can competently handle a shotgun will have no problem keeping a pistol grip shotty on target for rapid follow-up shots. I kept my shotty in both configs and I'd rather play room clearing hero* in pistol grip than full on stock. Simply put, at those ranges it simply won't matter beyond personal preference IMHO.

Start to open the range and/or use for prolonged periods, it will certainly start to favor the stock. In fact, i will say for the situation the JIC model is marketed for, a pistol grip isn't your best choice for average outdoor encounter.

Like every fire arm you buy, keep the purpose in mind and you'll be fine.

*sarcasm

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

......Stock .....Market.....pretty good.

We used to take the Ithaca 37 riot guns, and holding them up in front of you, and slightly tilted back. You could eject an empty, drop the gun down and shoot the empty, before it hit the ground. With a little practice its not as hard as it sounds, the 8 shot is slower, even with only 3 loaded, but can still be done.(before you ask, with bird shot) While it sounds like wasting shells, it does dial you in a little on aiming your gun from waist level. And they had full stocks.

 

[Jim NE]

Here's what I don't like about pistol grip shotguns - the have almost zero recreational value.

A .357 revolver, a .45 acp, a mini 14, a full stock shotgun are all excellent self defense weapons (as is a pistol grip shotgun), but you can ALSO target shoot, or plink or hunt or shoot blue rock with them. Not a pistol grip.

What do you do with a pistol grip shot gun other than keep it by your bed and take it out to the range once a year so you can put 7 or 8 rounds through it to make sure it still works?? (And no, blasting abandoned old refrigerators in a scrap yard from 20 feet away is NOT recreation...or the suggestion in the previous post.)