Most practical way to heat bullet casting lead for fluxing?

[12Bravo20]

As others have stated, you shouldn't have any issues as long as the lead is clean when you put it into your bottom drop furnace.

While I have not messed with lead much, I use to work in a machine shop that would repair/recast babbitt bearing. Babbitt is very similar to lead but without the hazards. We used a good sized furnace to melt the babbitt and keep it at the correct temps for pouring. We used potatoes on a long steel rod to stir the babbitt to get impurities to float to the top and then we would skim it.

Most of the bearings we worked on were for electric power plants. The biggest bearing we did were from the Harry S Truman damn in Missouri. Those had an internal bore diameter around 109 inches. A 2 foot diameter bearing was considered small for us.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I built my pot using 7” 3/8 wall steel pipe, holds just over 60 lbs. I wrapped a new 3500 watt oven element ($10) around the pipe. Before I converted it over to bottom pour the trunnions up near the top were the pivot and there was a section of pipe off the U shape at the top to pour.

I use a solid state relay and a PID to turn it on/off. I did wrap stainless steel around the element to hold it tight and keep heat in somewhat.

FWIW I flux in my casting pot but I don’t put anything except clean lead in it, have a different setup for melting lead into ingots for casting.

I should have expected something this DIY and this well-featured from jmorris! (A man of many skills)

Jim G

 

[mdi]

Wow! If I had to go through all the stuff in post #5, I probably wouldn't cast any bullets. Safety is a concern, but mainly addressed by common sense. A fan is OK, even if you want to use one outdoors, but you won't get your lead hot enough for any toxic fumes (casting is normally done at 700-750 degrees, Lead fumes emitted at over 900 degrees.). If smoke from fluxing is the concern, use the same precautions you use when BBQing. No need for respirator mask! Eye protection is a good idea and a face shield is OK if you want to go with one, I wear glasses and on only one occasion, early in my casting, I dropped a bullet back into the pot and a tiny drop of lead, mebbe .010" in diameter hit my glasses. Never heard of any splashed getting in anyone's mouth. A welding jacket and gauntlets are OK, but waaaay overkill. I don't like gloves because the lack of feeling tools. Cotton long sleeve shirt and pants and boots/shoes are sufficient (been casting over 30 years and haven't had a lap full of hot lead yet, but I normally think about what I'm doing.). I drop sprues and culls in a coffee can. No need for a fire/heat proof container. I have burned myself on rare occasions ("Oh look, a perfect bullet! Ouch!" as I picked up a freshly cast 265 gr SWC).

Again; common sense is the best safety tool for casting. In all the time I have been casting I have only read of one instance of "real" lead poisoning from casting bullets; a man in Alaska cast bullets for sale in a small shed several hours per day, 6-7 days a week for 20+ years and was diagnosed with lead poisoning during a Dr visit for another problem. Of course very sketchy and could be just a keyboard doctor with internet wisdom. I don't do deep breathing exercises over my pot, I don't chew on a boolit while casting and I wash my hands when done. I had annual physicals until my retirement and 4 blood tests since I retired and the only time the heavy metals levels got over normal were explained by the Dr. was from breathing downtown LA air.

K.I.S.S. Don't overthink the "Lead Poisoning Scare" and use common sense. Casting can be a lot of very satisfying fun if one doesn't buy into the "Chicken Little" approach to casting safety.

Sorry for the rant, but often threads like this add to the old wives tales and lead poisoning scare that can keep new casters in fear and away from casting...

 

[Howa 9700]

A few years back, I melted down several hundred pounds of wheel weights and some ancient and corroded #4 lead shot, most of which I bought from the guy who started Missouri Bullet. I went to his farm to pick it up. He had it as residual from when he was doing the same to make bullets for himself.......before his hobby got out of hand and morphed into a business, by then with about 10 bullet making machines clanking away in an old shed. He had outgrown wheel weights and was now buying lead by the truckload.

Anyway, my heat source was a Bayou Classic propane burner, and lead was melted in a 10 inch cast iron dutch oven I found at an antique store for $15. Tools were long handled stainless steel kitchen utensils I bought from a restaurant supply store.

Having some appreciation for the dangers of hot spattering lead, I started out terrified of what was to come. Fears unfounded. I eventually got comfortable with filling the pot full of any and all of it, even wet. As long as it went in cold and heated in place, it never splattered once. Wheel weight clips, rubber stems, valve cores would float to the top to be skimmed off and all came out clean and free of lead.

For flux, i used pieces of paraffin was or sawdust. The wax worked better. Wish I had known about the bees wax, also paraffin easier to come by and worked for my purposes.

 

[Crosshair]

This does not make sense. One of the advantages of a bottom tap pot is that the sludge of fluxing doesn't enter the workstream, or clog the tap. Additionally, you want to maintain a cover of flux on the molten lead as consistently as possible to avoid oxidizing out the alloys.

What you should not do is render dirty lead, like wheel weights or burm scrap, in your small pot. That wants a separate 'dirty' pot, on something like a turkey fryer.

This is exactly what you should be doing. Keep a healthy layer of sludge on top to prevent the stuff below from oxidizing. Scoop some out as it starts to get too thick.

 

[kmw1954]

This is what I started with. Electric hot plate and a 2qt SS covered sauce pan. The cast Iron was a waste of time. It would not get hot enough to keep the lead liquid. I don't recall what the total capacity in weight that the pan would hold. Though it was slow once melted it would maintain temp. Was also great for fluxing in that wide top pan. Made it easy to remove scrap and dross with a large SS spoon.

 

[JimGnitecki]

View attachment 1161272

This is what I started with. Electric hot plate and a 2qt SS covered sauce pan. The cast Iron was a waste of time. It would not get hot enough to keep the lead liquid. I don't recall what the total capacity in weight that the pan would hold. Though it was slow once melted it would maintain temp. Was also great for fluxing in that wide top pan. Made it easy to remove scrap and dross with a large SS spoon.

Yes, I have a specific s.s. sauce pan picked out to use. It has a 6" diameter and 3" height. I did the math, and it will easily hold 25 lb of Lead, with the lead taking up 2/3 of the 3" depth, leaving a nice 6" diameter skimming surface only 1" below the rim of the pot. Should be perfect.

Jim G

 

[lightman]

When I'm "smelting" scrap I use a homemade gas burner and a large steel pot. It will hold 400# but I usually stay at 350 or so. The burner probably produces 500K BTU's and will melt that 350# in about 20 minutes. I flux it a few times with pine sawdust and then with Beeswax.
I only use Beeswax in my casting pot. Casters often use the terms flux and reducing interchangeably but the above definition is correct. Sawdust fluxes and Beeswax reduces the oxides back into the melt.

 

[JimGnitecki]

When I'm "smelting" scrap I use a homemade gas burner and a large steel pot. It will hold 400# but I usually stay at 350 or so. The burner probably produces 500K BTU's and will melt that 350# in about 20 minutes. I flux it a few times with pine sawdust and then with Beeswax.
I only use Beeswax in my casting pot. Casters often use the terms flux and reducing interchangeably but the above definition is correct. Sawdust fluxes and Beeswax reduces the oxides back into the melt.

So, a caster should first use sawdust and then beeswax?

Jim G

 

[ms6852]

Propane Turkey fryer, simple solution. Although, from the posts of yours I have read, that’s not your style

. This is my method as well.

 

[.38 Special]

During a recent kitchen remodel I did quite a bit of cooking on a 1000W hot plate. It took forever to boil water. It probably will melt lead, but...

Like many others here, I've been fluxing in bottom pour pots for decades. It's a non-issue, as long as you're working with reasonably clean alloy. Yeah, if you're smelting range scrap or such then a dedicated pot is a good idea, but otherwise it's just not something to worry about.

As for the rest, I try not to get in the way of any hobbyist, no matter how far around the bend he has gone, so I will just point out that perfect bullets can be made with a ladle and a campfire. Anything beyond that can be considered a luxury rather than a necessity.

 

[kmw1954]

So, a caster should first use sawdust and then beeswax?

Gernerally, Yes.

NOW not saying this is what you need or need to do but this is now what I use to render down my scrap. The picture that shows about empty, it doesn't show up but when it cools and solidifies there is always a good bit of very fine powder on top of the slug and under the slug when it is lifted out. So no matter how well you flux and clean you will never remove it all.


This is all range scrap taken from a pistol berm. The last picture is the empty floating jackets.

 

[AJC1]

Y

Ok, if 1000 watts is sufficient, that gives me more choices at lower cost. I plan to do 25 lb at a time (that's 350 500g bullets), and the pot will weigh less than 2 lb (it's a s.s. saucepan 6" diameter by 3" high), so 27 lb total weight on the hot plate. Several of the available hot plate models have a cast iron cook surface and s.s. body, so should be able to handle the 27 lb.

Beyond safety, a primary reason for wanting a simple hot plate solution is fast and easy setup and takedown, as I will be doing this all outdoors for safety reasons. My workbench will be a "permanent" outdoor setup, away from the house, the rear garage, and the fence. It will consist of 2 towers of 8" x 8" x 16" concrete blocks, each 4 blocks (32") high, with a "tabletop" that is a 24" x 30" 3" thick concrete slab. This workbench is obviously fireproof and VERY stable (The top slab weighs 100 lb). The advantage of being permanent is that I avoid having to set up a work surface every time I want to flux or cast, and the workbench is obviously unaffected by permanent exposure to weather, or by any accidental Lead spillage.

I can run an extension cord to the hot plate much faster and more easily than playing with gas connections or fuel cans.

I'll still have a bunch of stuff I'll need to set up each time:
exhaust fan (yes, it's outdoors, but I still want to move the Lead fumes AWAY from me)
faceshield (Lead in the eyes or mouth would be a medical disaster)
respirator mask (Lead fumes are toxic)
my TIG welding jacket (won't melt if hit by Lead)
Lyman Mag 25
mold with mold handle
beeswax
ladle
Lead alloy
1" dowel for striking the sprue plate
Nitrile gloves (protection against lead on my hands)
welding long gauntlet gloves (protection against burns on my hands, wrists, and lower arms)
s.s. pot for fluxing lead
cookie sheet (to place under cloth that I drop the bullets onto. No water quenching, because I don't want hard bullets for the Pedersoli))
sprue cloth & cast bullet cloth
metal can half filled with sand or ashes to drop the skimmed off dross into.
hot plate
Sponge saturated with water - to clean up spills and to cool spilled lead or a too-hot mold quickly
ingot mold
ingots

so it's already too long a list, so I want to try to NOT add any more items than I absolutely need to add.

Jim G

You have quite the list. I cast with heavy Lincoln welding gloves found at any welding supply store... I open the sprue by hand, it gives you a ton of feedback on your mold temperature. It's not hard at all.... I do have a rawhide mallet to tap the handle hinge bolt to help the bullets out. The lower the antimony the more shrinkage the easier they fall out. I like flat base bullets over bevel base so I do get to tap a little fir extraction.

 

[AJC1]

So, a caster should first use sawdust and then beeswax?

Jim G

I use that process when making ingots, once in your casting pot I just use a little wax every half hour or so....

 

[Bearded Phil]

I am heeding the warnings to NOT flux my casting lead in my bottom drop Lyman lead furnace where it can cause the bottom valve to clog or leak.

Apparently, the reason they give for not doing fluxing in a bottom tap furnace pot is because you are supposed to agitate the beeswax or other fluxing agent well into the mix before letting it form a skin on top AFTER that, and the agitation can get any hidden crap close enough to the bottom valve to foul it, and apaprently it is very hard to clean it and easy to damage the valve as well while trying to do so. All the sources I have referenced say to NOT flux in your bottom tap pot

Wherever you heard this you should stop listening immediately, they don't know what they're talking about.

Lead is dense. REALLY dense. There's no kind of flux you can use that will clog the nozzle on your bottom pour spout. Whether you use sawdust, candle wax, bee's wax or other any kind of fluxing agent you put in the pot will end up on top of the melt.

 

[kmw1954]

There's no kind of flux you can use that will clog the nozzle on your bottom pour spout. Whether you use sawdust, candle wax, bee's wax or other any kind of fluxing agent you put in the pot will end up on top of the melt.

I too run a Lee bottom pour pot for casting and I flux it every time I heat it up and then wax flux it about every half our. Then also after I get to temp and the pot is full I will burn off a layer of sawdust and leave it on the top. That helps prevent gassing off the tin and antimony. I think it's called VooDoo science.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Gernerally, Yes.

NOW not saying this is what you need or need to do but this is now what I use to render down my scrap. The picture that shows about empty, it doesn't show up but when it cools and solidifies there is always a good bit of very fine powder on top of the slug and under the slug when it is lifted out. So no matter how well you flux and clean you will never remove it all.

View attachment 1161317 View attachment 1161318 View attachment 1161319
This is all range scrap taken from a pistol berm. The last picture is the empty floating jackets.

Thank-you for posting the photos, kmw1954! Words help, but words plus photos is even better!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I use that process when making ingots, once in your casting pot I just use a little wax every half hour or so....

Makes sense!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Wherever you heard this you should stop listening immediately, they don't know what they're talking about.

Lead is dense. REALLY dense. There's no kind of flux you can use that will clog the nozzle on your bottom pour spout. Whether you use sawdust, candle wax, bee's wax or other any kind of fluxing agent you put in the pot will end up on top of the melt.

I don't think the guys that told me to not flux in the furnace pot were worried about fluxing agent or LEAD or "normal alloy components" blocking up the valve. They were likely worried about unexpected, abnormal impurities whose shape might enable them to hang up on the bottom valve during agitation of the pot while fluxing. Enough guys mentioned it that I figured better safe than sorry.

Jim G

 

[mdi]

I clean my alloy with sawdust, wood chips, candle wax, etc., and make ingots/pucks. I stamp the BHN on each. I start my Lee pot with enough ingots to fill about 3/4+ full. (I often clean my empty pot with wire brushes to get out the scale and dirt left in the pot). I have pretty clean ingots so my melt is clean but to keep the alloy "reduced" I stir often with a wooden stick. Paint sticks work good and I found some rough cut wedges at the hardware store which work very well (2"x12" tapered from 1/2" to a point lengthwise. IIRC about $4.00 per dozen.). The sticks add a bit of carbon after it chars which helps the alloy. I clean the needle valve when I think about (every 6-9 months?).

 

[lightman]

So, a caster should first use sawdust and then beeswax?

Jim G

Thats my procedure for when I'm "smelting" and it works well. I only put clean lead in my casting pot and Beeswax does everything I need for that.

 

[Docendo Discimus]

Paint sticks work good

The 5 gallon stir sticks are the best if you can find them. I get mine at Menards.

 

[Bearded Phil]

They were likely worried about unexpected, abnormal impurities whose shape might enable them to hang up on the bottom valve during agitation of the pot while fluxing. Enough guys mentioned it that I figured better safe than sorry.

Na that's just not going to happen. I had some raw casts with aluminum gas checks that got marred so I needed to remelt the bullets. Gas checks were already crimped on and wouldn't come off by hand. So I just dropped them into my melt, the gas checks ended up on the surface. Easy to scoop out with my stirring spoon.

The "valve" on most bottom pour pots is little more than a hole at the bottom with a steel pin attached to a lever arm of some kind. You let the arm down, the hole is filled and no lead comes out. You pull up and the lead can flow through the hole. They're not high tech by any means.

Thing is, you're going to need to flux your casting melt in your pot. This homogenizes the alloy after the tin and antimony oxidizes out and separates on top.

Fluxing serves 2 purposes, cleaning and recombining the alloy. It's been said in this thread to flux to clean raw casting material such as wheel weights, plumbing pipe, roof shielding, etc. in a separate container than your pot, this is true. Usually this is done when processing bulk raw material to be poured into ingots that will later be used in the casting pot.

But you still have to flux melted ingots in the pot to recombine the alloy after you turn your pot on to melt again, add ingots or after a time enough that it may have oxidized again.

If you try to flux a lead alloy in a separate set-up to avoid doing it in your pot it's a fool's errand because you will just have to do it again.

I use sawdust in my casting pot for flux since it's free and plentiful, plus the charred carbon on top creates a physical barrier between the melt and the oxygen in the air above it. When there's too much carbon I scoop it out into old tuna cans and toss it out after it's cooled.

A bottom pour spigot can clog but usually for reason such as melt temperature being too low or even the design of the bottom pour pot its self but flux has nothing to do with any of that.