Mouse guns...Love ‘em or hate ‘em?

[Jeb Stuart]

The problem with 32s and 380s is not the round but the tiny guns they are chambered in. The small guns are just harder to shoot. I have owned 4 of the FIE Titan autos in 32 and 380 and in those larger sized guns I could shoot some very decent groups at 15 yards. I do pretty good with my Manhurin PP in 32acp also. I have wanted one of the Beretta model 84s or 85s for years but just never bought one. I bet those are very accurate 380 guns. But now you can easily find 9mm guns in the same size and smaller.

They are not IMO harder to shoot. The learning curve is just longer. Actually they are very easy to shoot. A stub nose revolver was a firearm that I did horrible at the first time I shot one. But thousands of rounds later sure changed that.And taking a LCR22 to the range was a big help. And today that short barrel 22.cal remains as one of the most fun guns I own. I love setting up empty shot shells on the bern and letting lose with the LCR. Shot it so much the trigger actually feels light even though it is on the heavy side. Makes all my DOA triggers feel like butter.

Maybe a good time to pick on Snubbies for a while.

 

[ThomasT]

View attachment 882510

Crappy cellphone pic I just took. I carried a RM380 for a few years while at work. Now I carry a Kahr MK9. I don't think many see the MK9 as a "mouse gun", but it's about the same size as the small 380s.

I really like that Kahr MK9. I had to look them up. Pricey little booger.

 

[Styx]

I really like that Kahr MK9. I had to look them up. Pricey little booger.

Plenty on the used market non like new condition. Paid under $380 for mine, and it came with G10 grips and TruGlo TFO fiber-optic night sights.

 

[Kleanbore]

They are not IMO harder to shoot. The learning curve is just longer. Actually they are very easy to shoot. A stub nose revolver was a firearm that I did horrible at the first time I shot one. But thousands of rounds later sure changed that.

At seven yards, I could consistently put five rounds into an are half the size of a playing card--firing slowly--with an Airweight Centennial.

But when it came to defensive shooting scenarios such as hitting a small pie plate three to five times in a second and a half at ten feet, never.

it wasn't a matter of the learning curve, it was physics. The light frame and the long, heavy trigger pull conspired to make the fun move too much to achieve a good balance of speed and precision.

I retired the gun from primary carry.

Whether Claude Werner could help me improve enough, I do not know.

 

[Koroner]

Actually the Arch Duke got whacked by a 1910 FN / Browning that was chambered in .380...according to Wikipedia anyway. Rumor had it that he wasn’t a “fun guy” and may have had it coming. The jury never came back with an opinion on Mrs. Arch Duke.

Well that is Wikipedia, I take it with a grain of salt. I can't remember where I read a 1903 Browning in 7.62mm.

Franz Ferdinand was not a fun guy. He used to take his private train across Austria and shoot every animal he saw. By some counts 375,000!
A second train would follow collecting trophies or food, and compensating farmers for their dead livestock.

His wife Sophie was another story. Despite being from a noble Czech family the snobby Austrian elite never saw her as a fit match for the heir to the (soon to be defunct) Austro-Hungarian throne. She was not permitted to sit near her husband at state dinners, at his box at the opera, or in his car in royal processions.

Sarajevo was far from Vienna and on June 28, 1914 the royal couple was on vacation. The first attempt by the Black Hand was a bomb that only injured bystanders. So the royal couple altered their itinerary to visit those injured. Their driver missed a turn and came to a halt directly in front of Princep who stepped forward and shot Sophie in the groin (hitting an artery) and the Archduke in the neck.

What I find interesting is that in the previous 20 years 20 world leaders were assassinated WITHOUT starting a world war. The list includes an American President, the Shah of Persia, the Queen of Korea, the Prime Minister of Bulgaria, the King of Italy, the King of Portugal, the Prime minister of Egypt, the Prime Minister of Spain, the President of Mexico, and the King of Greece.

(Although the President of Mexico died in what was called "the ten tragic days" when more than two million Mexicans were murdered by members of the other twelve million.)

 

[Kleanbore]

Princip's 1910 FN , in 9mm Kurz, is in a museum in Vienna. It had been held by the priest who administered the last rites to the victims in Sarajevo.

 

[whatnickname]

Actually the Arch Duke got whacked by a 1910 FN / Browning that was chambered in .380...according to Wikipedia anyway.

Princip's 1910 FN , in 9mm Kurz, is in a museum in Vienna. It had been held by the priest who administered the last rites to the victims in Sarajevo.

I read that too. Too bad the pistol was not well cared for. Some of the pictures I’ve seen showed it was very pitted.

 

[whatnickname]

3.5" Bbl'ed .380 ACP.

View attachment 882487​

Not exactly a "mouse gun."




GR

Purchased mine out of an estate. It spent its life in a dresser drawer. My guess is that it never had more than just a few rounds fired in it. It’s in about 98% condition. The original owners registration card shows the date of purchase and retail price. I paid a good bit more for it several years ago. Hard to find these in good condition as most have suffered from neglect. Agree not a mouse gun. And so much for the argument that ball ammunition is ineffective. Both the Arch Duke and Mrs. Arch Duke surely had their tickets punched by ball ammo. That said bullet placement is everything!

 

[Trey Veston]

I've never owned or shot one. Smallest pistol I've ever owned is my XDS 40 and that's as small as I'll go for a defensive pistol. I don't own any pistols that don't have a legitimate use and role.

I can't imagine it's much fun to shoot something that recoils more and is less accurate.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I've never owned or shot one. Smallest pistol I've ever owned is my XDS 40 and that's as small as I'll go for a defensive pistol. I don't own any pistols that don't have a legitimate use and role.

I can't imagine it's much fun to shoot something that recoils more and is less accurate.

Who said they recoil more than a 40cal? And I very well consider them a most legitimate use and they certainly have a role. That said, I appreciate your opinion and can only say that we differ in our views and preferences for shooting.
Perhaps you could invest in one and take the challenge. You never know. Maybe you can shoot them better than you think.

 

[Styx]

Who said they recoil more than a 40cal? And I very well consider them a most legitimate use and they certainly have a role. That said, I appreciate your opinion and can only say that we differ in our views and preferences for shooting.
Perhaps you could invest in one and take the challenge. You never know. Maybe you can shoot them better than you think.

I agree... In my experience only, have found that a 380 "mouse gun" doesn't recoil all that much especially compared to the single stack 40 s&w's I've fired... Then again it all depends on the gun and ammo... I've fired my buddy's XDS in 45, and it best the carp out of my hand. I could fire that same amp out of my 45 Shield, and it's much more pleasurable to shoot... Danes goes with some of the single stack 9mom's I have experienced. Some I shot better than others and some recoil more than others.

 

[Garandimal]

View attachment 882582 View attachment 882581

Purchased mine out of an estate. It spent its life in a dresser drawer. My guess is that it never had more than just a few rounds fired in it. It’s in about 98% condition. The original owners registration card shows the date of purchase and retail price. I paid a good bit more for it several years ago. Hard to find these in good condition as most have suffered from neglect. Agree not a mouse gun. And so much for the argument that ball ammunition is ineffective. Both the Arch Duke and Mrs. Arch Duke surely had their tickets punched by ball ammo. That said bullet placement is everything!

Like the hit-man said, when questioned about the effectiveness of the suppressed .22 LR pistol he favored.

"Sure, you can hit them anywhere. . . in the eye."
​

GR

 

[jimbo555]

Sig p365 makes all my 380, 22s and snubs obsolete. 10 plus 1 same size and weight as a pm9.

 

[Styx]

Sig p365 makes all my 380, 22s and snubs obsolete. 10 plus 1 same size and weight as a pm9.

Funny thing you say that. There's a thread called "Is the Glock 26 Obsolete" over on the GlockTalk forum where members are making the same claim that some here are making about small 380s... That the Sig P365, Hellcat, Shields, G43s, etc aren't suitable for carry because they recoil too much, are to small, to light, and can't be fired as well as a G26 and like sized double stacks.

Then I've seen other threads in the past that made the same claims about the G26 in lieu of full-sized guns like the G19...

Seems like the people who carry larger guns are all making similar claims about those who carry a size smaller... Except for the revolver guys... They are given hell from all of the above.

 

[mavracer]

At seven yards, I could consistently put five rounds into an are half the size of a playing card--firing slowly--with an Airweight Centennial.

But when it came to defensive shooting scenarios such as hitting a small pie plate three to five times in a second and a half at ten feet, never.

it wasn't a matter of the learning curve, it was physics. The light frame and the long, heavy trigger pull conspired to make the fun move too much to achieve a good balance of speed and precision.

I retired the gun from primary carry.

Whether Claude Werner could help me improve enough, I do not know.

The thing that helped me the most was a set of crimson trace grips. Using the laser gave me great visual feedback, I dry fired the crap out of my first 442 to the point I can rapidly stroke the trigger without the laser leaving a light switch at 15 feet.

It's also amazing how good you can get at pointing the gun at something (I have a NY mural with plenty of aiming points) and then activating the laser to verify accuracy even at odd angles you can get good enough to be within a couple inches at 15 feet.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Sig p365 makes all my 380, 22s and snubs obsolete. 10 plus 1 same size and weight as a pm9.

Lol, All I can say about that comment is, Man I love the internet. By the way, spent a good deal of time with the Sig. Nice gun, but I prefer the CM9. In fact after shooting the Sig, went out and bought three other Micro 9mms. And one of them was a second CM9. And by the way, your comparisons are way off. The P380, and the Sig365 are not even close to the same size in weight. And if you think millions are throwing their Snubs in the trash all because the Sig 365 came out, then you are kidding your own self. Good luck with that though.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

At seven yards, I could consistently put five rounds into an are half the size of a playing card--firing slowly--with an Airweight Centennial.

But when it came to defensive shooting scenarios such as hitting a small pie plate three to five times in a second and a half at ten feet, never.

it wasn't a matter of the learning curve, it was physics. The light frame and the long, heavy trigger pull conspired to make the fun move too much to achieve a good balance of speed and precision.

I retired the gun from primary carry.

Whether Claude Werner could help me improve enough, I do not know.

That was your problem IMO. Treating the small revolver like a target gun. I am quite the opposite from training. Shooting fast at any target is much easier than trying to stack the trigger and concentrate on a bulls eye. A DAO seems long when shooting like a target gun. When shooting fast, and doing this on a regular basis you can do wonders with the gun, when pulling the trigger fast, you cannot even tell it is long.
One of the reasons why, I belive Ruger went with the new LCPll. People were shooting these guns like target guns. They had to have a light crisp trigger. The Gen 2 was a very nice DAO. Especially for a small Pocket size EDC.

 

[mavracer]

Sig p365 makes all my 380, 22s and snubs obsolete. 10 plus 1 same size and weight as a pm9.

your p365 empty with no magazine weighs 2 oz more than my loaded LCR and 5 oz more than my LCP. I would probably think about upgrading my LC9 to a Hellcat or P365 but I already don't carry it as much as my LCR as I wear gym shorts a lot and anything heavier than the LCR pulls them down.

 

[ThomasT]

What I find interesting is that in the previous 20 years 20 world leaders were assassinated WITHOUT starting a world war. The list includes an American President, the Shah of Persia, the Queen of Korea, the Prime Minister of Bulgaria, the King of Italy, the King of Portugal, the Prime minister of Egypt, the Prime Minister of Spain, the President of Mexico, and the King of Greece.

Do some research and you will those European powers were already on the cusp of a war. The Germans had the Schlieffen plan in place since 1905 for a two pronged attack against France and Russia. They were just waiting for the right incident to set it in motion and Gravrilo Princip lit the fuse.

 

[Trey Veston]

And by the way, your comparisons are way off. The PM9, and the Sig365 are not even close to the same size in weight.

I guess it depends on what one considers close...

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I guess it depends on what one considers close...

View attachment 882625

View attachment 882626

My bad. I meant to say P380 vs 365

 

[94045]

Sig p365 makes all my 380, 22s and snubs obsolete. 10 plus 1 same size and weight as a pm9.

To bad it's so big. I didn't think so but then I put mine beside a Sig 938. It's like comparing a M&P to Shield.

 

[Kleanbore]

That was your problem IMO. Treating the small revolver like a target gun. I am quite the opposite from training. Shooting fast at any target is much easier than trying to stack the trigger and concentrate on a bulls eye. A DAO seems long when shooting like a target gun. When shooting fast, and doing this on a regular basis you can do wonders with the gun, when pulling the trigger fast, you cannot even tell it is long.

No.

I could shoot the thing 'like a target gun" but I could not shoot it rapidly with acceptable precision.

The Smith J-Frame revolver has a terrible tigger pull.

i now have a Kimber K6, with a much better trigger and the weight of a steel frame. For backup.

I do not intend to take it to a training class, but it is considerably better than the 642.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I put a custom trigger on the 642 and it shoots lovely. But Prefer the LCR trigger. In fact a very nice well liked trigger by many. Yes, I would agree the K6 is a better built pistol than the Smith. Glad you like the K6, I would love to have one. Never had the chance to shoot one. Not in my price range at this time. And have enough guns as it is. Good luck with your New K6. I have no problem shooting the 642. If you need a heavier revolver that is all good. I actually shoot the LCR9mm more and carry the 642 because it is lighter. Do not want a heavier gun. No need to get angry.

By the way, not sure what you meant by No. I was agreeing with you that you could shoot it well like a target gun. But with training, could do very well at fast shooting targets and even better shooting fast. Maybe that K6 will give you a idea of what I am talking about. Provided of course you do start to train with it. And why the anger over the 642? I never even mentioned the K6 or even once compared them. Relax.

 

[94045]

I put a custom trigger on the 642 and it shoots lovely. But Prefer the LCR trigger. In fact very nice well like trigger by many. Yes, I would agree the K6 is a better built pistol than the Smith. Glad you like the K6, I would love to have one. Never had the chance to shoot one. Not in my price range at this time. And have enough guns as it is. Good luck with your New K6.

By the way, not sure what you meant by No. I was agreeing with you that you could shoot it well like a target gun. But with training, could do very well at fast shooting targets and even better shooting fast. Maybe that K6 will give you a idea of what I am talking about. Provided of course you do start to train with it. And why the anger over the 642? I never even mentioned the K6 or even once compared them. Relax.

My M60 is not a target gun but I can fire 5 Shot - 5 Yard groups the size of a golf ball at a 1.0 second per shot pace. I haven't had it long though. Hopefully I will improve.