Multiple firearms purchases at one time, Pennsylvania

[orpington]

This is probably a moot point, as lately I am rarely successful in an an auction purchase, but my questions:

1) I generally collect ANTIQUE revolvers, so I usually do not have to ship to an FFL, but this particular auction house requires that. Can it ship to my FFL being pre-1899 and I pay him the transfer fee, less, or none, depending what I negotiate, no paperwork whatsoever?

2) My understanding is that if 2 or more revolvers are purchased within 5 days of each other, another form has to be completed. What are the implications of this, as, to me, it raises a "red flag"?

3) Let's say I win 2 (or more) firearms, ANTIQUE or otherwise in this auction. Can they be shipped to my FFL in bulk, and I complete the paperwork on each once the same day each week, thereby picking up each firearm once weekly and avoiding that "5 day" form?

4) If the aforementioned is legal, is this even in my best interest to do so, or is it simply a waste of time and gas to stagger completed purchases?

As you can see, my comprehension of that "5 day" form is limited and, from my limited understanding of this, it raises a "red flag" and may or may not put you in the "troublemaker" category from the point of the State Police.

 

[jonnyc]

I think a lot will depend upon your FFL and his interpretation of the law, unfortunately.
Legally, you can buy as many as you want in PA, but 2 or more handguns will require a Multi-Sale form, which really is no big deal at all (no Red Flag). The legality and cost of antique transfers and costs will depend entirely on your FFL's interpretation, no matter what the law actually says.
If you disagree with his interpretation, good luck, it's his shop.

 

[wiscoaster]

I've had conversations with a couple different FFLs regarding the five-day thing, getting confusing and conflicting answers, and I think what it really boils down to is: this is something the customer doesn't have to concern themselves with. So, I'd say, just go ahead and tell your FFL what you want to do, and let them worry about the paperwork. That seller you're dealing with is goofy. Most are eager to label an antique "NO FFL REQUIRED!!"

 

[orpington]

Question: Why does the multi-purchase form exist to begin with? It wouldn't exist other than because someone somewhere wants to know who is purchasing multiple handguns in 5 days or less. Why?

 

[bearcreek]

Question: Why does the multi-purchase form exist to begin with? It wouldn't exist other than because someone somewhere wants to know who is purchasing multiple handguns in 5 days or less. Why?

Because knowledge is power.

 

[dogtown tom]

Question: Why does the multi-purchase form exist to begin with? It wouldn't exist other than because someone somewhere wants to know who is purchasing multiple handguns in 5 days or less. Why?

The requirement to report multiple sales of pistols and revolvers was part of the Gun Control Act of 1968. Congress believed it would prevent unlicensed dealing in firearms.
As there is no federal registration of firearms (other than NFA firearms) the plan is so full of holes its virtually meaningless. A buyer could acquire five handguns from five different dealers and no one knows but the buyer and dealer. But buy two from the same dealer in a five day period the dealer is open for business and a report to ATF and local CLEO is required.

Unlike the reporting requirement for handguns, the ATF requirement for the reporting of "certain rifles" by dealers in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas is not authorized by the GCA '68, but as ATF claimed 18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(5)(A) gave them the authority.

"Certain rifles" are those that are semiautomatic, centerfire, .22cal or greater that accept a detachable magazine. Oddly, only those licensed as an 01FFL Dealer are required to report certain rifles, those with an 07FFL Manufacturer are not.......even though that license enables them to do the exact same dealing in firearms as an 01FFL.

 

[old lady new shooter]

ATF requirement for the reporting of "certain rifles" by dealers in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas

How were those states chosen for this requirement? When was it enacted?

 

[dogtown tom]

How were those states chosen for this requirement?

Those are the states that border Mexico. The reporting requirement was due to the number of US firearms being recovered in Mexico.

When was it enacted?

The requirement became effective in January 2011.

Since then it has virtually ended gun violence in Mexico.

 

[CapnMac]

How were those states chosen for this requirement? When was it enacted?

Border States, and a precursor for Fast & Furious

 

[The Last Outlaw]

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but Mexico had the highest number of homicides on record in 2017.

 

[243winxb]

Federal law ATF

Instructions
1. Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) must use thisform to report all transactionsin which an unlicensed person acquired any combination of two or more
pistols or revolvers totaling two or more at one time or during five consecutive business days. This form is not required when the pistols or revolvers
are returned to the same person from whom they are received.
2. If this transaction is an additional firearm(s) to a multiple sale(s) previously submitted, check "Yes" and enter the date of the previous Multiple Sale
form. (For example a multiple sale for purchases made on a Monday and Friday must be submitted by the close of business Friday. If an additional
purchase is made within the five days from the Friday purchase, this purchase is part of the previous multiple sale and must be reported as part of that
multiple sale under 2c).

 

[old lady new shooter]

Those are the states that border Mexico. The reporting requirement was due to the number of US firearms being recovered in Mexico.




The requirement became effective in January 2011.

Since then it has virtually ended gun violence in Mexico.

Very interesting, thank you very much.

 

[dogtown tom]

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but Mexico had the highest number of homicides on record in 2017.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

 

[Johnm1]

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but Mexico had the highest number of homicides on record in 2017.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

I don’t know about Tom, but some of us old guys don’t use emojis. It’s tough when you own underwear older than the name for this new fangled stuff.

sufferer of OGD with CRS and CSS syndromes.

OGD - Old guy disease
CRS - Can’t remember s#!+ (Just ask my wife, you know What’s Her Name)
CSS - Can’t see s#!+

 

[dogtown tom]

I don’t know about Tom, but some of us old guys don’t use emojis....

<----63 but I'm a teacher and hang with the Kinder-12 crowd eight hours a day.

I thought that sentence was so ridiculous that no emoji was needed.

 

[cslinger]

I have only bought/transferred more than a single gun at once one time and coincidentally they were older Smith Revolvers. That was many moons ago and it never caused me any issue then or subsequently. Still happily own both.

Now if I had bought a gross of Glocks it may be different, I dunno.

 

[Eddietruett]

I can tell you this, the multiple handgun form that dealers send it can and will raise a red flag with the ATF if they see several of them in a short period. According to my FFL, this is one of the ways they identify non FFL holders that are dealing in firearms. There is no law that prohibits multiple purchases, but you do several "multiples" in a short period of time, especially if it is with semi autos, you will probably get a visit. A gentleman that lives near me bought around 50 Glocks, Sigs and Taurus Semi Autos in a 3 month period of time online just about the time the "shortage" was kicking in. He got a visit and while all were still at his house and he had not technically violated any laws, it was pretty obvious of what his intentions were at least to the authorities. It was strongly suggested that he get a FFL or cease buying. I personally don't want to get in a situation where any law enforcement has to strongly suggest I do anything

 

[cjwils]

Wouldn't legal antiques be exempt from any paperwork requirements by the receiving FFL, including the multiple handgun form?

 

[orpington]

Wouldn't legal antiques be exempt from any paperwork requirements by the receiving FFL, including the multiple handgun form?

I should think so, but then again, perhaps it's at the discretion of the FFL.

Does the multiple handgun for simply note that more than one handgun was purchased, or does it give a specific number? And, does it record information on all purchased, such as make, model, serial number, etc?

And, is this a state form specific to Pennsylvania or is it nationwide?

 

[dogtown tom]

Wouldn't legal antiques be exempt from any paperwork requirements by the receiving FFL, including the multiple handgun form?

"legal antiques" don't require an FFL, Form 4473 or multiple sale form because they are not firearms regulated by federal law.

 

[dogtown tom]

I should think so, but then again, perhaps it's at the discretion of the FFL.

Any dealer who submits a multiple sale form to ATF for antiques, AR lowers, water pistols, rubber band guns, shotguns...........hasn't read the instructions printed on the form.

Does the multiple handgun for simply note that more than one handgun was purchased, or does it give a specific number?
And, does it record information on all purchased, such as make, model, serial number, etc?

Take a look: https://www.atf.gov/file/61426/download

And, is this a state form specific to Pennsylvania or is it nationwide?

While states may have their own forms and reporting requirements, the ATF form is required everywhere.

 

[orpington]

As expected, this issue never came into play. In today's market, difficult enough to purchase one revolver at auction at a reasonable price. Infinitely more impossible for lightning to strike in the same place twice.

 

[Megawatt maker]

I'm in PA. I bought a batch of 5 lowers a few months ago, from PSA. I dont recall having to fill out anything outside the normal 4473. Not sure what's this "multi purchase form" is. It could be I'm getting old and my memory is failing, but I dont recall any extra paperwork at this time.

Also, any pre 1898 firearm has no paper work at all in PA. I've bought them at live auctions, online auctions, and from FFLs here, and not a single one had any paper attached to them. I dont recall even having to ship a pre 1898 to an FFL...came straight to my door. Paid the man at the live auctions, walked out the door with them too.

 

[Theohazard]

Not sure what's this "multi purchase form" is.

It’s a federal form that the ATF requires every dealer in the US to fill out whenever a customer is transferred two or more handguns in a 5-day period. It’s only for handguns and it doesn’t involve the customer at all, which is why many people don’t know about it.

Your dealer wouldn’t have filled out that form since you bought receivers and not handguns.

 

[Laphroaig]

Not sure what's this "multi purchase form" is.

Is this something new? Christmas, 2013 or 2014 (can't remember exactly) I bought 3 1911 pistols as presents for my kids. I didn't fill out anything other than the 4473's. Did the dealer have do it without my knowledge?