My idea to improve snubbies.

[LooseGrouper]

I wanted to get your collective opinion on an idea I had to make j-frame type revolvers more shootable.

One of the big problems I have with j-frames is that I have to wrap my finger around the trigger (to the second joint) to maintain a solid grip. If you put something on the backstrap of the grip fram (like custom grips) you can improve on this, but you lose some concealibility.

Why has no one every moved the trigger forward? You would just need extend the trigger gaurd to the end of the frame...maybe extend the frame about 1/2 an inch. Then it you could move the actual trigger out accordingly with a relatively simple mechinism (kinda like a bullpup trigger). The relationship of trigger and trigger finger would be much closer to where it is supposed to be for shooters with normal sized hands without having to adjust the grip to something less than optimal.

Would this kind of thing give any improvements? I know the bullpup triggers are notorious for NOT being as good as their standard counterparts, but this would be a much shorter mechanism.

Thoughts?

LG

 

[sm]

Would this improve?

Personally speaking - No.

The J frame designs are sound, proven, and will continue to be in the future.

What would improve this Gun? Applicable to any handgun, be it revolver or semi-auto? :

-Learning Correct Basic Fundamentals. Includes Gun Fit to shooter, learning with a K frame [any medium frame revolver] and learning to shoot DA.

-Starting with light loads in J frames in learning, training, and practice

-More J frame offerings in .22 rim-fire to shoot.

Good shooters are made - not born -Misseldine

 

[fastbolt]

Nobody ever claimed that learning to properly, safely, accurately & effectively shoot a J-frame revolver was necessarily easy ... and for many folks it isn't.

Matter of fact, it generally requires a higher, more refined level of DA/DAO revolver skills than when using a full-size revolver.

The reduced-sized revolver platform does offer some inherent potential difficulties for most users/owners.

However, personally I think it's generally easier to 'fix' the user/owner than it is to try and reinvent the platform ... and that J-frame revolvers just might not be for everyone, when all is said and done ...

I also think the same thing might be said for some of the many diminutive pistol designs available, too, when it comes to them 'fitting' some users/owners.

Nothing particularly 'wrong' with a good medium-frame, 6-shot revolver. Also, the Ruger SP-101 might be a better 'fit' for some folks who find a J-frame just a bit too small.

 

[Majic]

You should have a firm grip without the use of the trigger finger as it's not a part of the grip. If you use your trigger finger as part of the support grip then it's easy to pull your shots off target. You still use the first pad of the finger on the trigger. You need to rethink how you hold your revolver.

 

[Brian Williams]

The hardware is fine, the software needs to be practiced and master the hardware.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Okay, let me clarify. By "maintainig a solid grip," I meant that I have to rotate my hand clockwise (right handed) if I want to use the first pad of my index finger on the trigger, or I have to hang my trigger finger awkwardly outside the trigger gaurd. I do not use my trigger finger to hold onto the gun.

I can see the points about learning fundamentals, j-frames being a proven system, etc. I agree with those points. I was just thinking hypothetically that if you could make a revolver with almost identical attributes except that it fit the shooter better, then it would be a better gun for that shooter.

Now I don't shoot my 637 as much as I should (especially considering the percentage of the time I carry it relative to my larger options). I've tried several grip types (high on the frame, low on the frame, etc etc etc), and using the second pad on my index finger produced better results. Any advice is appreciated, and I'll try it out.

So that being said, does anyone have an opinion about how something like this would shoot if it was built?

 

[JERRY]

i would remove the lock and stick with what made S&W the best revolver at one time.

 

[MCgunner]

I agree with fastbolt and Brian Williams. Seems to be a "software" problem here. I like the Js the way they are. I learned to shoot 'em and if anything, i'd want 'em smaller to be more concealable. They seem to be a good compromise as is, though, for shootable concealable DA revolver. Any gun designed for concealment is going to be a bit of a compromise.

 

[double0757]

J-frames better

My 2 cents: I would remove the front part of the triger guard. So as when you draw your weapon with index finger extended and then pull triger. It would not cause your sight to move out of aim point, as your finger brush the front part of the triger guard.

Double O

 

[RyanM]

I wouldn't be able to reach the trigger if it were moved out that far!

 

[JERRY]

[/I would remove the front part of the triger guard. QUOTE]

ala fritz special.

 

[Abner]

I only have a 642 so my improvement would be an easier to see and aim with pair of fixed sights. Maybe a front site like on the Scandiums and a replaceable rear that you can get tritium for. Course, that might not be doable with the aloy frame and a steel sight.

Adam

 

[Standing Wolf]

If you want a longer length of pull, put a shoe on the trigger.

 

[BigG]

I have found shooting snubbies DAO is the way to go. No single action cocking.

 

[ChristopherG]

I think there could be merit to this idea; and a specialized trigger shoe is the way to handle it most reasonably and reproduceably. But if you add enough material to the front of the trigger to get the reach up to the same as a normal, midsize revolver, you are going to face a problem of the amount of space between trigger & the front of the guard; probably a fitz (not fritz) special appraoch is the way to go--cutting out the front of the guard. Bill Jordan, in 'No Second Place Winner,' illustrated and remarked positively on this practice for a snubgun.

That means, however, that no-one is going produce such a product commercially, since you'd face potential liability issues, telling poeple to screw with their trigger guards. For a home-smith who wanted to produce a real working gun, though, it would be an interesting project.

PS--I can and do shoot and carry a j-frame all the time, and know exactly what you're saying. Platitudes about software and 'learn to shoot' exhortations are not a fair response to a well-thought-out idea like yours.

 

[fastbolt]

I forgot to mention that I generally use my distal joint for engaging the trigger surface, not the 'pad' of my fingertip, when shooting my DAO 642 J-frame. Virtually engaging the trigger with the crease of the joint. This is when using the factory or Bantam grips.

This can change a bit when shooting different guns, or using different grips.

For example, when shooting my SP-101 with the factory grips my index finger falls onto the trigger face so that the distal joint of my finger is off the trigger, and I'm using the pad of my finger closest to the joint.

When shooting my 649 Bodyguard, which wears some of the older rubber Farrar slip-on 1-piece grips, with a layer of rubber over the rear of the grip frame and some thick palm swells, my finger's joint crease is farther away from the trigger.

I used to use the thick Pachmayr Compac grips for an older M36 3" Heavy Barrel nickeled J-frame, and I also used to use a Tyler T-grip with the older wooden grips on the same gun.

Considering the variety of different grips available for the J-frame revolvers it might be worthwhile to consider trying some different grips, to see if even a subtle dimensional change might beneficial when it comes to trigger reach.

Naturally, a compromise might have to be considered when it comes to balancing concealability, carry method and grip size.

Of course, in some respects carrying a J-frame in the first place is pretty much the very definition of compromise ...

If you were to somehow engineer an extended trigger and enlarged trigger guard for the diminutive J-frame, using the existing frame dimensions in all other respects, I wonder if folks who can presently adjust the fit of the gun using any of the presently available grips might suddenly discover their hands no longer fit the new system as well. Okay for folks with larger hands, but now a different group of owners/users might be excluded.

 

[HighVelocity]

There's only one thing wrong with ALL j-frame wheelguns and that's the fact that I don't own them ALL.

If the j-frame doesn't work for you the way it is, then the obvious answer is try a different gun. The Ruger SP101 is a little beefier but still quite concealable.

If you want a longer length of pull, put a shoe on the trigger.

Trigger Shoe:

Trigger's shoe:

 

[kmrcstintn]

I only see 1 disadvantage of a trigger shoe; it cuts down on the amount of room for a trigger finger; especially if the shooter is wearing gloves in damp or colder weather; great idea if living in a warmer climate and gloves are not a concern

 

[Kurt_M]

The hardware is fine, the software needs to be practiced and master the hardware.

So is that the kind of response you give to someone whose hands are too small to hold full-size weapon? That they just need to work on their skills in order to master it, even though their trigger finger can't even reach the trigger? Having hands that are too large for a platform is nearly as big of a problem when you're trying to shoot it accurately, and in this case there's a good reason to use the smaller platform because it conceals better. I think he's on to something here, because I've often thought the same thing myself. There's no reason not to offer a compact weapon with a full-length trigger pull to fit those who need that length for better shooting. The trigger pull on Kahr pistols is so short that the thumb of my shooting hand gets in the way of the tip of my trigger finger when I fire it. That's not a "software" problem, that's an incompatibility between my hand and that gun, and it's one that could be easily corrected if the trigger were located 1/4" farther forward. I agree that basic skill is far more important than equipment when it comes to shooting, but it's still important to choose a weapon that works with your body instead of against it.

 

[Majic]

or I have to hang my trigger finger awkwardly outside the trigger gaurd.

What is meant by awkwardly hanging the finger outside the trigger guard? The trigger finger should adjust to all lengths of trigger pulls, but I have never found any of them to be awkward.
Maybe you should just use larger framed guns.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Majik asked:

What is meant by awkwardly hanging the finger outside the trigger guard?

Basically, my finger is slightly more curled and there is more space between the frame of the gun and my index finger, as opposed to my finger being almost flush with the frame of guns that fit better. Does that make more sense? Sorry if it was not worded clearly.

ChristopherG and Kurt_M,

Thanks for posting some supporting opinions (although it appears that we are in the minority).

fastbolt

I'm sure some folks would find that the modified trigger doesn't fit them. So what? I'm not advocating a halt in production of guns that don't fit me. Just suggesting an option to make already existing j-frames fit some folks better. I would like to go on the record as supporting diversity in firearms.

And I would also like to say that I voted for the bill...before I voted against it.

LG

 

[PX15]

I find a Tyler T-grip makes all of my snubby's easier to shoot. That's J-frame Smiths & Colt D frames....

JMOFO

J. Pomeroy