My Issue With A Carry Gun
- Thread starter Orion8472
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The Night Rider
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Depends on where you end up
the first gen walther p22 was an ergonomic gem but had serious feeding issues. i chose its closest resembling handgun, the ruger sr22. the new p22q apparently fixed the feeding issues. if true the p22q is a fine choice.
peeplwtchr
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While in an outside defense shooting class a couple months ago, I forgot to put on my ears, and shot my 9mm. I heard something was different, and stopped. Originally I thought my ammo malfunctioned, then I realised I had no ears on. I was surprised at how it wasn't as loud as I thought it would be. I still hear as well as I did before the shots, no pain, no ringing. I think you're worrying about it unduely, as shooting in a defense situation will probably never happen, and if it does, you'll be fine.
peeplwtchr
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FYI-It's not nearly as loud when you're behind the gun, as it is when you're next to it.
jdsingleshot
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Stopping power is chained to your approach. It depends on whether your intent is to stop an attack through blood loss, mechanical damage or interrupting electrical circuits. Especially in these days of bad guys on drugs and/or wearing body armor, I'd plan to turn his lights out. A .22 in the cranium will do that as well as another caliber.
For those who say the target is to small, I think it's my best shot. I'm pushing 75, and if I lost such a contest, nobody could say I died young.
For those who say the target is to small, I think it's my best shot. I'm pushing 75, and if I lost such a contest, nobody could say I died young.
Fatcat3
Member
Cow Pies. Lets see. we are going to take 4,5-6, pencils drive them into various parts of the human body, 8-10 inches deep. at 700-800fps. Is the bad guy's concern to kill me or get to somewhere, so holes are not being put in his body? Even if he does keep coming, I'm betting if I haven't put the odds in my favor, I've sure evened them up some. As a private citizen my objective is not to arrest, detain, or kill, it is to get the BG to stop continuing doing whatever it was that caused me to use deadly force. Him lying in the fetal position, rolling around swearing like a pirate, or running away leaking like a sieve, is just as good as splattering him all over several acers.
I'm not advocating using a 22 for self-defense, but it sure is better than a harsh word and a mean look and shouldn't be taken lightly.
OP
OP
Orion8472
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Fatcat3, I like your reply. A good day, where I had to pull out a weapon, would be them seeing it and fleeing. I do not want to shoot anyone..and would be an extreme last resort. I can a can only hope that such an event transpires as I'd hope [them leaving]. But if not, I'd probably feel better with that 22.
As a side note, it makes me think of the video Paul Harrell and his demonstration of whether 22lr is better than nothing.
As a side note, it makes me think of the video Paul Harrell and his demonstration of whether 22lr is better than nothing.
Joezilla
Member
My wife carries the LCP II in 22lr also. Not so much for the noise reduction, but for the recoil reduction. My hearing has been bad since birth, but I always use ear protection at the range to try to preserve as much as I can. I'm a 9mm guy.
Joe
The Night Rider
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I went to a shooting range in Penrose Colorado this morning. Between Colorado Springs and Penrose there is no radio reception. So, I Bluetoothed music through my hearing aids while I was driving.
My hearing aids aren't like earbuds. I can listen to the music and I can still hear outside sounds. When I got to the shooting range I took off my hearing aids went and signed in and went down to the berm.
When I pull my hearing aids off it feels like there's still something in my ears for a while. So, I forgot to put my ear plugs in. And I got the first shot with no hearing protection.
I told my wife about it when I came home and I was just about to tell her that my ears were still ringing when it occurred to me that my ears are always ringing
My hearing aids aren't like earbuds. I can listen to the music and I can still hear outside sounds. When I got to the shooting range I took off my hearing aids went and signed in and went down to the berm.
When I pull my hearing aids off it feels like there's still something in my ears for a while. So, I forgot to put my ear plugs in. And I got the first shot with no hearing protection.
I told my wife about it when I came home and I was just about to tell her that my ears were still ringing when it occurred to me that my ears are always ringing
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Always ringing. Yep, same here. I just forget about it most days.
The Night Rider
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There's a noticeable difference in my hearing this morning and not in a good way. So I'm certain my ears were damaged to some extent. I'm sure it will go away in a day or two and I'm certain the cumulative effect isn't going to be noticeable over time but there was some damage done.
So anyone who reads this learn from my mistake
So anyone who reads this learn from my mistake
Simple Shooter
Member
Just a thought on hearing protection that may help.
At the beginning of the year, I decided to order bulk earplugs instead of buying whatever they have at the LGS. Between shooting and running woodworking equipment, chainsaws, tractors, etc. we go through a lot of them at my house.
After doing some research and speaking with a couple HSE pros, I ordered a big box of 3M 1100 earplugs and found that- properly inserted- they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any plugs at the LGS. I will never use anything else again. I ordered them on Amazon at $0.14/pair.
Whether you stick with .22 or decide to go bigger, these may help you.
At the beginning of the year, I decided to order bulk earplugs instead of buying whatever they have at the LGS. Between shooting and running woodworking equipment, chainsaws, tractors, etc. we go through a lot of them at my house.
After doing some research and speaking with a couple HSE pros, I ordered a big box of 3M 1100 earplugs and found that- properly inserted- they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any plugs at the LGS. I will never use anything else again. I ordered them on Amazon at $0.14/pair.
Whether you stick with .22 or decide to go bigger, these may help you.
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upptick
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I did a fair amount of training on a demolition range in the military. When we were setting off nearby charges, i.e. lying on one side of a berm and tossing grenades to the other, it was standard practice to open our mouths wide to help with the concussion. This seemed to help, although 30 years later I developed raging tinnitus. And yes, I always wore hearing protection, at least what the Army gave us.
Simple Shooter
Member
Cannot speak to them, as I don’t recall if they are any of the countless products I have used in the past.
What I learned is the NRR is no more the only factor of effectiveness for earplugs than caliber is for a handgun. I found the 3M 1100 recover from being rolled up very well and swell to completely close off my ear canal. They really cut off the sound. The 11100’s are dense and stay in place; I don’t have to pull them out and fix the seal every one in a while. I can’t say that about most of the other plugs I have tried.
They work well for me and are my choice. Other products may work better for other people.
OP
OP
Orion8472
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I think I'll get a box of them to try out. Thanks for the input.
citizenconn
Member
That was something I pondered for a long time, not for myself as much as for the half dozen kitties and doggies living in my house, which was why I chose to go with subsonic .300 blk along with a suppressor on both of my home defense firearms. For myself I do have two sets of electronic hearing protection right next to my home defense firearms. I'd like to think I will have the extra 5-10 seconds it will take to put them on in case of an emergency, but who knows. What I do like about them, and that is why I now wear them when I go hunting as well, is that it amplifies all the small ambient sounds so my hearing is actually better with them on than it is with no hearing protection.
Where I feel most vulnerable and need self defense firearms the most is when I drive to work or go out anywhere else here in the Houston area. For that I've chosen to wear wireless bluetooth earbuds that sync with my phone or car stereo system all the time but also work as electronic hearing protection against gunfire or other loud noises. I think the current ones I use are AXIL, but I also have another pair that are Walker's or similar.
Mot of my range time is spent at an outdoor range, and I shoot some very loud magnum rifles as do many of my range mates, so there I use the over the ear electronic earmuffs and sometimes a pair of foam earplugs under those as well for double protection.
I'd advise the OP to try some of these options and see what works best for their needs. For myself I just do not feel that a .22 LR or similar would be protection enough in the environment here in Houston. Best wishes.
Good point!
Hokkmike
Member
(Part of your quote) I think all calibers & rounds require extensive practice. For PRACTICE always use ear protection. In the extremely unlikely event that you actually ever have to use a weapon in SD the noise will be the least of your problems.
westernrover
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I'm with you on this. Loudness just doesn't do anything helpful, but unfortunately, helpful things can come with a lot of noise.
Here is something I think is helpful for finding a quieter firearm solution: The sound pressure level (SPL) is a derivative of the muzzle pressure. Muzzle pressure is usually expressed in PSI. So keep in mind, the more square inches of area at the muzzle (larger bore), the louder 1 psi will be. That's why shotguns are still loud even though they have relatively low chamber pressure and long barrels. Small bores like .22 could be quieter, but if they require greater muzzle pressure to deliver sufficient ballistics, then they may not be. Some small bores are among the loudest guns -- 5.56x45, and 327 Federal Magnum for examples. The reason for that is high muzzle pressures resulting from high chamber pressures and short barrels.
Notice that cartridges themselves are not quieter or louder. What matters are things like chamber pressure, any pressure venting out gaps (revolver), barrel length, bore size, and the burn rate and progressivity of the propellant. Don't make assumptions that 45 ACP is quieter because it's a low-pressure cartridge, or that 5.7x28 is quieter because it's a small-bore. The 45 will be very loud indeed if it is shot out of a 3" barrel and then loaded with slow and progressive powders to make up for the lack of velocity the short barrel develops. The muzzle pressure will be higher than some 357 Magnums. Don't presume that a 357 Magnum is louder than hell. If it's loaded with a very fast powder and has a long barrel, the muzzle pressure will drop to 3000 psi. A 38 Special, on the other hand, cannot be loaded to high chamber pressures by definition. Therefore, it will need slower powders to develop velocity necessary for defensive ballistics. If it also has a snubby barrel, it will be much louder than the 357 that delivers the same ballistics with higher chamber pressure and a longer barrel.
Consider that bigger bores drop pressure faster over the distance a bullet travels down the bore. Also, consider that bigger bores require heavier bullets to have the sectional density needed to achieve sufficient penetration. It's hard to get good penetration with a big bore without adding recoil. However, for any given bore size, a heavier bullet (of a given design) will achieve better penetration for a given amount of recoil than a lighter one driven to higher velocities. This is because in addition to the recoil resulting from driving the lighter bullet to higher velocities, the lighter load must also accelerate the greater mass of propellant and that mass is accelerated to a velocity averaging something like 1.8 times the velocity of the bullet. What this means for noise is that "slow and heavy," especially subsonic, will be quieter (and produce less recoil) for a given penetration goal.
Quieter guns are generally big guns with longer barrels. They need to be strong to accept high chamber pressures, they need to be bigger to throw heavier projectiles without a lot of gas and blast, and they need the barrel length to develop velocity even with a sharp drop in barrel pressure. A lot of people find that unattractive for carry. They want it short and light so they can conceal it easily and comfortably. You have to decide what your priorities are.
A silencer (or "suppressor" if you prefer) is basically a device to drop the muzzle pressure before the gas pressure front behind the bullet hits the open air. When the bullet enters the suppressor, the friction against the lands ceases but the gas is able to expand into a container with the volume of a much longer barrel. While carrying a suppressor is mostly impractical, it's not impossible. The Gemtech Aurora 2 is pretty short. This type of suppressor uses wipes and gel and the problem with that is that it is incompatible with hollowpoint bullets, the wipes only last a few shots, and you may have legal challenges lawfully possessing additional wipes for replacing them. You might consider using it with Lehigh Xtreme Defense and learning how to repack it lawfully. I'm not recommending it from any personal experience.
Here is something I think is helpful for finding a quieter firearm solution: The sound pressure level (SPL) is a derivative of the muzzle pressure. Muzzle pressure is usually expressed in PSI. So keep in mind, the more square inches of area at the muzzle (larger bore), the louder 1 psi will be. That's why shotguns are still loud even though they have relatively low chamber pressure and long barrels. Small bores like .22 could be quieter, but if they require greater muzzle pressure to deliver sufficient ballistics, then they may not be. Some small bores are among the loudest guns -- 5.56x45, and 327 Federal Magnum for examples. The reason for that is high muzzle pressures resulting from high chamber pressures and short barrels.
Notice that cartridges themselves are not quieter or louder. What matters are things like chamber pressure, any pressure venting out gaps (revolver), barrel length, bore size, and the burn rate and progressivity of the propellant. Don't make assumptions that 45 ACP is quieter because it's a low-pressure cartridge, or that 5.7x28 is quieter because it's a small-bore. The 45 will be very loud indeed if it is shot out of a 3" barrel and then loaded with slow and progressive powders to make up for the lack of velocity the short barrel develops. The muzzle pressure will be higher than some 357 Magnums. Don't presume that a 357 Magnum is louder than hell. If it's loaded with a very fast powder and has a long barrel, the muzzle pressure will drop to 3000 psi. A 38 Special, on the other hand, cannot be loaded to high chamber pressures by definition. Therefore, it will need slower powders to develop velocity necessary for defensive ballistics. If it also has a snubby barrel, it will be much louder than the 357 that delivers the same ballistics with higher chamber pressure and a longer barrel.
Consider that bigger bores drop pressure faster over the distance a bullet travels down the bore. Also, consider that bigger bores require heavier bullets to have the sectional density needed to achieve sufficient penetration. It's hard to get good penetration with a big bore without adding recoil. However, for any given bore size, a heavier bullet (of a given design) will achieve better penetration for a given amount of recoil than a lighter one driven to higher velocities. This is because in addition to the recoil resulting from driving the lighter bullet to higher velocities, the lighter load must also accelerate the greater mass of propellant and that mass is accelerated to a velocity averaging something like 1.8 times the velocity of the bullet. What this means for noise is that "slow and heavy," especially subsonic, will be quieter (and produce less recoil) for a given penetration goal.
Quieter guns are generally big guns with longer barrels. They need to be strong to accept high chamber pressures, they need to be bigger to throw heavier projectiles without a lot of gas and blast, and they need the barrel length to develop velocity even with a sharp drop in barrel pressure. A lot of people find that unattractive for carry. They want it short and light so they can conceal it easily and comfortably. You have to decide what your priorities are.
A silencer (or "suppressor" if you prefer) is basically a device to drop the muzzle pressure before the gas pressure front behind the bullet hits the open air. When the bullet enters the suppressor, the friction against the lands ceases but the gas is able to expand into a container with the volume of a much longer barrel. While carrying a suppressor is mostly impractical, it's not impossible. The Gemtech Aurora 2 is pretty short. This type of suppressor uses wipes and gel and the problem with that is that it is incompatible with hollowpoint bullets, the wipes only last a few shots, and you may have legal challenges lawfully possessing additional wipes for replacing them. You might consider using it with Lehigh Xtreme Defense and learning how to repack it lawfully. I'm not recommending it from any personal experience.
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