My Wife, S&W, and Mr. Road Rager

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I thought I might share a situation which happened to my wife a few years ago but which is still burned into our minds when it comes to self preservation and handgun carry. Tennessee was one first states to liberalize handgun carry laws. When the opportunity came to get a carry permit I told the wife we should have a go at it. I never really thought she would have to use her handgun to defend herself but knowing she had one made me feel better on those nights she had to work late.

One day at lunch, I get a call at work and she is shook up like I've never heard. She explained that she had to draw down on a man. I asked all the pertinent questions. The following account is how she described it. She pulled up to a red light where a secondary road intersected a major urban thoroughfare. A small pickup was in front of her and a line of cars was in the lane beside her. The lane beside her was obligated to turn left. She was in the lane going across the intersection. When the light changed, the small truck did not move. She said the driver appeared to be busy with something other than driving.

She gave the fellow an opportunity to go but when he didn't, she gave a brief toot on the horn to make him aware of the light being green. She said he casually looked into his rear view mirror and proceeded to give her a hand gesture (the finger). She stated he then began to very slowly pull across the intersection in what appeared to be an attempt to leave her in the middle when the light changed. She began to move forward through the intersection as well. The light was in the process of changing back to red and traffic to her left had abated so she swung out to the left lane and passed the guy in the truck and got back into the lane she needed. My wife doesn't really feed into what people do on the road. She is of the mindset of needing to get where she needs to get so she didn't think much of passing this guy (it was lunch and the wife likes to eat too:D).

She said seconds later this small pick up is flashing his high beams and racing up along side of her. A car was in front of her, he was along side and there was a car moving in behind her. She was essentially boxed in approaching another red light. She still really hadn't recognized she was in danger until the passenger side window of the pick up went down and the man behind the wheel was screaming at her, mostly gender related slurs. At this point she got very nervous. The light in front changed and she had to stop.

The small truck swerved diagonally across her vehicles driver fender essentially trapping her against the curb. The man exited his pickup and came around the front of his truck towards her driver door. She had her window down about 1/4 before all this started to help cool the car and in her panic tired to put the window up but hit the switch to lower it. She said he didn't run at her door but was definitely moving in a deliberate and aggressive manner, pointing and spewing profanities at her as he closed the distance. She immediately reached into her purse for her J frame. She stated he was just a few feet away from her window when he caught sight of the barrel coming up at him and he froze. She said his next comment was, "ARE YOU GONNA (expletive) SHOOT ME?!". She said "YES!". With that, he turned, jumped back in his truck and drove off. Neither her or the car behind her got a license plate since both were seriously shook up by the experience.

She called me in tears. My initial reaction was not High Road. I told her she should have shot him but I'm glad she didn't now. To this day, we can't go through that intersection without the though of what went down. I always assumed I would be there to defend her. I always assumed if someone had to draw down it would be me. After nine years carrying a gun for a living, I've never had to draw my weapon to defend myself. My wife on the other hand has. Best money I ever spent was for that handgun permit.
 
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I'm just glad she had the presence of mind to pull it. She didn't freeze up like, I think, my wife would have. Good for her.
 
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I'm glad everything turned out alright. Situations like this one can get very ugly, so it's understandable that she was shaken.

I am wondering, though, did you call the police? Was there any follow-up? Did they give your wife trouble for having drawn a gun?
 
Honestly I'm glad it occurred to her to draw as well. As fast as this went down, it would have been easy for her to forget she had a weapon.
 
In this day and time of cell phones, calling is critical. The bad guy could have easily called and complained about the crazy lady with a gun. Not good.
 
I'm glad your wife came out of the incident unharmed. I hope she has now changed her policy on friendly "toots" of her horn as well. I'm not faulting her, I'm just saying what can be meant as a friendly gesture can easily be taken the wrong way. I refuse to use my horn for anything other than to avoid an accident anymore for that very reason. There are too many people on the road with two ton weapons.
 
Messenger Guard - first, that's a horrible position to be put into by someone else. Great for your wife to defend herself. Second, I'm curious if your wife still carries in her purse? Has this event changed anything else defense-related? I'm really interested in how people react to deadly situations when they come out 'on top' (although there is never a winner is a situation like this). Do they do more analysis about other threats, do they seek more training, more equipment, etc?
 
She has a purse designed for carry and she uses it. She has moved up in caliber since the incident. Initially she carried a Glock 19 but found it to be too heavy. She has M.S. and she felt the Glock was too much. At the time of the incident she had a S&W with 9 rounds of .22 CCI Stingers. I was not a fan of the .22 for defensive purposes but with her illness, Momma gets what Momma wants. She now has a 637 in 38 special. I've loaded it with a Hornady not +P round she can control.
I'm not opposed to her quick honk of the horn given the text happy types we find on the road these days. I really feel this fellow's problem had more to do with her gender. To me, it appears he wanted control of a situation. When she passed around him, he had lost control. He reestablished control by blocking her in. The gun was something he hadn't counted on. We as men have all met someone like this. Men who have a hatred of women. They are typically cowards when confronted by another man like the ones on COPS who cry like babies once in cuffs while their badly beaten girlfriend looks on. I think all of us on here are High Road or we wouldn't be on this forum. We understand it is our responsibility as men to defend the female of the species. We just need to be aware not everyone is on The High Road.
 
All's well that ends well. I'm curious though, would she have pulled the trigger had it escalated?
 
Messenger, your wife exercised restraint which is the hallmark in having a CPL. The perp fled, firing would have been unjustified.
I would have followed through with a 911 call, stayed in place with my flashers on and give the police a description of the perp and the perp's vehicle.

You want to contact the police because you don't want to be accused of brandishing a weapon in public. A full report should be filed to protect yourself. What if the perp files charges against you later for brandishing? He might have your license plate #-and it would not be hard to get a name. Thus, cover your bases.
 
Uhh, if someone is sitting in the middle of the road not responding to a green light, they should expect to get a toot of a horn.

If the guy gets that enraged by someone tooting a horn then passing, well, he probably would want to dice me to small pieces. I have little sympathy for people who fail to get moving on the road, unless they are hauling a load. (Some people have no idea how hauling a heavy trailer affects a vehicle)

Good on your wife, but I hope she called the cops before calling you, or you told her to call the cops immediately.
 
Uhh, if someone is sitting in the middle of the road not responding to a green light, they should expect to get a toot of a horn.

If the guy gets that enraged by someone tooting a horn then passing, well, he probably would want to dice me to small pieces. I have little sympathy for people who fail to get moving on the road, unless they are hauling a load. (Some people have no idea how hauling a heavy trailer affects a vehicle)

I agree, the problem is the road rager doesn't agree. I go out of my way to avoid confrontation anywhere I go, in todays society road rage is a real threat. You don't know how the person in another vehicle will respond, they could just move along because you honked, they could give you the finger, or they could try to assault you. The fact is you don't know until they react. I look at it the same way as if I was in a room with an obnoxious drunk, I would be better served avoiding any contact than to tell him to quiet down or that his actions were not appropriate. If I don't like how they drive I'll pass them or give them enough space to get a good bit in front of me and I expect others to do the same if they don't like how I drive. I don't make eye contact or play games with fools on the road.
 
Good job by the wife.

I've loaded it with a Hornady not +P round she can control.

Federal has supposedly reintroduced the NyClad in 38 special. These are the best standard velocity self-defense loads you can get IMO. They are nylon coated soft lead hollow points.

They quit making them in 9mm several years ago but they mushroomed like nobody's business and I'd get full penetration of a vehicle with very little recoil. Worth buying a box to have her check them out. I bet she likes them :)
 
I guess my point that if this is the full story (sorry, I want to fully believe Messenger Guard, but this isn't a courtroom), the guy would be going after 90% of the drivers here in San Antonio.

This guy may find himself at the business end of a gun some other time if he rages so easily.
 
The guy probably learned his lessson after that. Generally having a gun pointed at you is enough of a scare to make you premanently rethink your actions.
 
Is it legal to pull your gun just because somebody is walking at your vehicle in a menacing manner? I agree she should have had a hand on it and be ready, but to that point he didn't threaten her or even touch her and he didn't have a weapon. I think she could have been arrested for brandishing if he called it in first.
 
Is it legal to pull your gun just because somebody is walking at your vehicle in a menacing manner? I agree she should have had a hand on it and be ready, but to that point he didn't threaten her or even touch her and he didn't have a weapon. I think she could have been arrested for brandishing if he called it in first.

It probably depends on the state - he's in TN so I assume they have pretty reasonable laws on self defense. Now, as far as the comment of him not threatening or touching, that never enters into the equation of justifiable self defense. The thing that matters is that he did something to scare her enough that she was in fear if eminent death or severe injury. Cutting someone off in traffic, yells sexist remarks at them, getting out of your vehicle and approaching while very angry - I'm pretty sure most women would at that point feel like something very bad is going to happen.

I would encourage you to read on of the good self defense books (armed and female, even though you may be a man, in the gravest extreme, etc). It will help you understand the legal side of the use of deadly force.
 
Is it legal to pull your gun just because somebody is walking at your vehicle in a menacing manner? I agree she should have had a hand on it and be ready, but to that point he didn't threaten her or even touch her and he didn't have a weapon. I think she could have been arrested for brandishing if he called it in first.
Purely a matter of state and local law.

In Ohio, castle doctrine covers you when you're in the car. If I understand correctly, the guy pinned her car against the curb where she couldn't escape. Under those circumstances, even WITHOUT castle doctrine, the guy might as well have been wearing a sandwich board that said, "Shoot me!"

  • Threatening behavior by assailant which put victim in immediate, reasonable fear of life and limb.
  • Inability of the victim to retreat in "PERFECT SAFETY".
  • Disparity of force.
Our "hero" hit the trifecta of legal justifications for somebody to shoot him.
 
Sorry but I'm not convinced she was in immediate danger. If he reached in her car castle doctrine would take effect. He didn't hit her car with his did he? If so I'll retract but it sure didn't read that way to me since she didn't even call the cops. Her car wasn't pinned at all.

She could have reversed and got away from him. What does Mas Ayoob say - if you can't easily explain it to jury - you probably shouldn't have pulled it out. or something like that. This ones a bit tricky - I didn't see her life in danger yet. Just my opinion. I understand the disparity of force issue, but he didn't physically attack her.
 
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Should she have waited until he put a screw driver through her ear? What's the 21 foot rule? Things happen a lot faster in real life - and I haven't read a single self defense shooting that happened 'by the book' with nothing to improve upon. As for this story, I think it's fairly well within the margin of reason for self defense. You have the 3 components and most importantly, everyone went away alive and well.
 
I didn't read he had a screwdriver in his hand. Please see examples below - I'll include a link also -

Generally speaking, you can only legally shoot when your adversary demonstrates the ability, opportunity and intent to inflict immediate and serious bodily injury to you or those around you.

No jury is going to accept you shooting someone – and police agencies will not even accept you presenting your weapon – over a verbal argument, name-calling, or even groping.

Because he's walking towards her car doesn't really present itself as an immediate threat.

Again, your adversaries (even in a disparity of force situation) must be demonstrating the ability, opportunity, and intent to inflict immediate and serious bodily injury to you or those around you in order to justify shooting.

Here is the link -http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2008/08/04/a-lesson-in-disparity-of-force/

I'm not saying she was wrong necessarily. I just really want to know for my own edification if she was wrong and at what point would she be cleared to give the command stop or I'll shoot? IDK
 
Similar thing happened to me once. Just a short honk on the phone sent this guy ballistic. I did not carry at the time because I had let my license expire. I put my phone on speaker and called 911. The short story is that the cops show up with what must have been a SWAT team. Guns drawn on him and screaming out of the car. Turns out he had a five year old in the car and had a suspended drivers license. He went to jail. Scared the bb's out of me but he went to jail. I got a long lecture from the cops to renew my CCL. And I did right away. I carry all the time now even when I am home.
 
Good job to your wife messenger. In TN you are legal to use your weapon when you feel that you are in emminent fear of your life. A maniac approaching a disabled woman in the fashion that he did meets this criteria in my eyes and likely that of a jury. Kudos for her being on top of her game.
 
I think she handled it perfect and looks like the great equalizer did its job. My wife got her permit finally about 2 months ago, I've been getting her to shoot as often as I can, she really thinks there is no danger in the world but I'm slowly getting through.
 
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