Near self defense encounter today

[M-Ful]

This may not belong in this section so moderators feel free to move it. It was about 7:30pm and I was headed to pickup dinner, it was a nice day so I had my driver side window down on my truck (my first mistake) as I pulled into the drive through I noticed two men walking toward the resturant which was in a roughish part of town and didnt think much of it (second mistake, Im usually MUCH more situationally aware than that :banghead, when I stopped in line I was in a spot where the mans approach was blocked by a second advertising sign so by the time he was in my safety bubble it was too late to flee and to late to rool the window up. Im 16 so I cant carry a firearm but I always have my Zero Tolerance folder on my waistbad (except in school) and mace in my console so my hand instinctively went to it but I didnt pull it. The guy started to tell me some B.S. story about needing money for gas at the shell station, ohhh and after I left I followed the guy and he walked right past the gas station, anyway so I asked if five bucks would do, and this is when it started to get bad, at that point he stuck his hand in his pocket and got a defensive posture and said he didnt think that that would work, at this point my ZT was out but not visable (knife to a gunfight I know) and I was in go mode, so I dropped him a $20 on the ground and told him to have a good day, he calmed down ,turned around, and left with his buddy then. This was the closest Ive been so far to a self defense situation, does anybody have anything that I could have done different or a SOP that I could put in place to avoid this besides keeping the windows up?

Thanks yall,
Matt

 

[shappa357]

step on the gas and drive away?

 

[Texan Scott]

^this^. always taught in our foreign national safety briefings... learn to leave enough space between your vehicle and the one in front that you can cut sharply out and drive away. Just one more tool to put in your arsenal of knowledge... glad this one only cost you 20 bucks and a bit of stress. Stay Safe.

 

[MyGreenGuns]

step on the gas and drive away?

This is a good idea, although not always available.

Keeping an open space was something that was taught to me as well.

However, some drive-thrus do not have an available escape route. Leaving space will get you no where if there is nowhere else to go.

 

[JustinJ]

The guy started to tell me some B.S. story about needing money for gas at the shell station, ohhh and after I left I followed the guy and he walked right past the gas station, anyway so I asked if five bucks would do, and this is when it started to get bad, at that point he stuck his hand in his pocket and got a defensive posture and said he didnt think that that would work,

As others have stated you should have drove away. But that aside you never should have offered five bucks and asked if that would do. You reply should have been "sorry, i don't have any cash on me" and thats it. Your resposne basically said i'm eager to pay for you to leave me alone but i have more so please press me harder.

 

[psyopspec]

Your personal safety is never something you should be ashamed to protect. As soon as you saw him coming over you could have rolled up the window and double-checked the locks. There's no reason to give him anything; it doesn't sound like it was charity so much as psychological strong-arming with an implication of violence on the guys part.

In summary: Secure vehicle, drive away if you can, give a firm "No," and let him move on to someone easier.

Glad you're safe.

 

[TrickyDick]

$20? I'm too cheap for that, but if $20 meant your safety, then so be it. you did well, you adapted to your situation and luckily it didn't get worse. it's just too bad you had to lose $20....

 

[bigfatdave]

So instead of repelling this idiot with prevention or avoidance, you started negotiating about how much cash could be extorted from you?

You're lucky you didn't find out that nothing short of a vehicle or access to your "special places" would keep that hand in a pocket, which was probably empty.

 

[bigfatdave]

$20? I'm too cheap for that, but if $20 meant your safety, then so be it. you did well, you adapted to your situation and luckily it didn't get worse. it's just too bad you had to lose $20....

NO!

If some idiot is threatening you with assault, you leave. If they attempt to actually commit assault, you leave through them.
An enclosed vehicle is a better weapon than anything you can carry on your person, once you stop worrying about scratching the finish.

 

[M-Ful]

Thats the thing there wasnt any room to gas it and go around other wise I would have, I did have one foot on the gas and one on the brake just in case I did have to plow through though, and I know it was probably a mistake offering him money but its what I did and it got me home safe, lesson learned

 

[conw]

I know it was probably a mistake offering him money but its what I did and it got me home safe

You got home safe in spite of offering money to an unknown person who was attempting to intimidate you.

It's like saying you know it's a bad idea to speed through a red light in a busy intersection, but it got you home safe. No, you were lucky.

 

[JellyJar]

I think I read this in Ayoob's book " In the Gravest Extreme".

Get a 20 dollar bill and write your DL number in the margin. Get a book of matches and under the matches also write you DL number. Then fold the 20 dollar bill around the book of matches. When in such a situation throw the book of matches away from you and the other guy. Then if the worst happens you can tell the police you tried to de-escalate the situation and when the police find either the bill and/or the book of matches on one of your assailants that will prove you innocent.

Ayoob called it chump change.

 

[Texan Scott]

The youg man's 16, guys... he already knows what he did was sub-optimal. he's asking for advice. BTW, M-Ful, what bigfatdave said about going THROUGH your attacker to get away, and not worry about scratching the paint? GOOD ADVICE #2. If he had actually assualted you, next move would have been to use the car to run him over/pin him/ drag him or (since he was alongside), pin him to/ run him into/ scrape him along the wall until you could scrape him off the vehicle like scraping a roach off your shoe (along the edge of something).

(and yes, offering him money and asking if it was enough tells a predator A) he's already won, and B) there's more for the taking. I suspect you already figured that out, though.)

Personally, I would have pointed the OC spray at him when he approached the vehicle and yelled at him to go away. ( * )holes like that are usually opportunists preying on people they perceive as weak and scared. If he'd gotten the strong impression that you were angry, aggressive, and willing to make it more trouble than pocket change was worth, he'd likely have gone somewhere else.

 

[Happypuppy]

The youg man's 16, guys... he already knows what he did was sub-optimal. he's asking for advice.

+1 It worked and nothing happened. It is commendable you look at what you could have done better I am sure you will get a lot of input.




Sent from my 300 baud modem

 

[bigfatdave]

there wasnt any room to gas it and go around

not enough room to do it smoothly, or not enough room to do it at all?

One of the reasons I carry insurance on my vehicle is because I might have to use the bumpers/fenders as more than cosmetic items.

I suggest you (as in everyone, not just M-Ful) find a nice empty lot somewhere and put out some road cones. K-Mart has a lot sized for Xmas shoppers in a frenzy, and it is always empty (at least around here and everywhere else I've ever lived). I'd suggest behind a closed-down store hit by the denied recession/depression we're in, but apparently there are shady characters waiting in places like that to extort money in small amounts from kids.

Learn exactly how much you can slew the front end over to knock something down with the driver's door. Learn exactly how much room you need to break out of a line of vehicles with the wheel hard right/left. Now subtract ~~25% from those distances for serious emergency/evasive/offensive maneuvers, your and the other vehicles have some give to them that won't make anything undriveable, in most cases.

M-Ful, you got lucky. I'm not joking here, you are seriously lucky that the scumbag wasn't with a buddy or more ambitious. DO NOT negotiate with an armed robbery, or someone claiming to conduct an armed robbery - either exit rapidly or respond with overwhelming violence. A vehicle is a weapon, in fact the lightest 2004 ford ranger* weight I found in a casual search was 3028 pounds. That is a ton and a half of self-propelled battering ram, and you're farting around with pepper spray and a stabby? I'd understand not using a motorcycle or scooter as a weapon, but a truck? Smear the dirtbag, drive off through the hedge/bush, jump the curb, or just force another vehicle out of your way, you're in control of a 3000+ pound (1,360KG) juggernaut!




* (first small truck to come to mind and first search result with useful data, chances are that your truck is heavier)

 

[ScottieG59]

We all started young at some point. One of the smart things to realize is that you must always have situational awareness. Additionally, being young puts you at a serious experience disadvantage. Like the other guys said here, you created more jeopardy if you begin to negotiate with a robber.

Rolling up a side window is good, but it is easy to break that window with a pointed object. Even a ball bearing held in between one/s fingers can easily shatter a side window. Unlike the windshield, the side windows will easily crumble into many pieces without sharp edges.

Another factor to consider is that many men out there have other objectives when the see a young teenager. Guys here have alluded to it, but you should hear it straight. There are many sexual predators who seek to exploit teenagers like you. Often, this is a violent and deadly event. This threat may not show itself as an evil looking man like the one you saw. It will very possibly be a guy who seems nice and trustworthy. More commonly, today, the approach is done online for a variety of reasons.

Anyway, there are risks out there when you go out. Probably at the top of the list is your inexperience in driving and using a cell phone while driving.

 

[JustinJ]

Get a 20 dollar bill and write your DL number in the margin. Get a book of matches and under the matches also write you DL number. Then fold the 20 dollar bill around the book of matches. When in such a situation throw the book of matches away from you and the other guy. Then if the worst happens you can tell the police you tried to de-escalate the situation and when the police find either the bill and/or the book of matches on one of your assailants that will prove you innocent.

I'm not sure i follow. So you throw $20 on the ground so the criminal can pick it up and you then attack them? If you throw it on the ground and they go for it would you not then just escape? Either way if you throw $20 on the ground it seems hard to claim it was extorted from you. Not to mention i would imagine most robbers would simply claim you give it to them out of charity or whatever.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Matt, considering the circumstances, you did pretty well. Especially since there was a second person. The first person might indeed have been unarmed, but the second had the gun.

If you go to the police after the incident and make a complaint about being approached, the police can determine if a criminal law was broken.

I'm not sure i follow. So you throw $20 on the ground so the criminal can pick it up and you then attack them? If you throw it on the ground and they go for it would you not then just escape? Either way if you throw $20 on the ground it seems hard to claim it was extorted from you. Not to mention i would imagine most robbers would simply claim you give it to them out of charity or whatever.

The advice (as I read it) was less about money than about escape. The identifying number on the bill is about inducing the criminal to keep evidence on him, a secondary benefit. (Same concept as banks use in the dye pack that they keep in their "robbery money". http://www.howstuffworks.com/question671.htm)

When I was in S.E. Asia in the 70's we were advised to keep two wallets. One with money and the other with I.D. and other important papers. If robbed, give up the money wallet, but fight for the important one.

Same principle in the woods. If approached by a bear that seems intent on a meal, give up your backpack. The bear (hopefully) investigates the pack, tearing it open instead of you.


As far as BigFatDave's advice (post #15), be cautious. If confronted with deadly force, using your vehicle as a deadly weapon is ok. If you could not convince a jury that you were in imminent fear for your life when you hit the guy with your car you might well be convicted of assault, assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder or murder.

Or, say you evaded the panhandler/mugger/rapist/murderer by crashing through shrubbery, a retaining wall and somebody's rear fender. While you saved your life, the repair bills will be a lot more than $20, not to mention getting home late with or without dinner. And if the mugger disappears without any other witnesses, you might be thought at fault.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

It's not too late

It's not too late to report the incident to the police. If you can give a description of either of the two, it will help in several ways.

Some police/sheriffs keep tabs on where crimes happen more often. This tends to make your locale safer. Helps both you and your neighbors.

These guys might already be known to the police. You won't get your money back, but they might rise up high enough on the radar to be noticed by a cruiser, perhaps during the commission of another crime. Slim odds, but a good thing.

If you get approached again and have to mace one (which I would prefer to knifing one, as a knife is a deadly weapon and mace is not-my legal opinion, worth zip, as I am not a lawyer, much less familiar with Arkansas law) a prior complaint gives your report of self-defense more credibility.

Reporting an attempted crime may put you on your local law enforcement's "good citizen" list. If you are ever caught up in a civil disturbance or found at a crime scene, there is nothing so comforting as having a friendly cop say, "Hey, I know this guy."

Lost Sheep

Edit to add: Check out this thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8210218#post8210218

 

[bikerdoc]

Welcome to THR

You did good Kid. You went home unharmed. Learn from it. Grow and expand your knowledge and tools. Figure you paid 20 bucks tuition for a class. Now be situationally aware.

Just me. but when he got agressive, not saying you should have sprayed him, but he was doing the the monkey dance or interview. ( not familiar with those terms search the S& T forum. also ADEE.)

Again welcome.

 

[SimplyChad]

Tire Iron
under your seat not the greatest but works. I know someone is gonna blast me for that but o well.

 

[Texan Scott]

No, no... I'm sure he HAS a tire iron. One of the cross-pieced four-way kind. What he needs is a TARN. Say it with me, with a 'Jeff Foxworthy' feel... TAAAAR-RAAARN. The kind shaped like a crowbar. The kind nobody seems to sell anymore.

Problem with that is, he'd have to get out of the truck to swing it, and he's much better off staying in the truck. Ya Hear, M-FUL? Stay in the truck.

 

[M-Ful]

Thanks for the latest support and ideas yall, especially the Texan Scott "TAAAAR-RAAARN", Im thinking about looking into a Mace fogger until I can conceal a weapon, like a fire extinguisher but full o' Mace!

 

[twofifty]

another useful life skill is knowing how to cook your own meals.
This will keep you out of take-out lineups and probably be healthier too.

 

[M-Ful]

Im a backpacker and Ive been into survival since I was twelve, I can be self sufficient if I need to haha