Recent Encounter in Denver Metro!

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.455_Hunter

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My coworker is a double-tour Iraq War Combat Veteran (E6, US Army Field Artillery). He and his girlfriend live in the southeast Denver metro area, so they parked their car at the Arapahoe Rd / I-25 RTD Light Rail station and boarded the train for their night out in downtown Denver.

At approximately 0100 hours, they boarded a return train, heading for the “park-n-ride” to retrieve their car and head home. My coworker is very situationaly aware, and was disappointed when the fullness of the train necessitated them sitting with their “back to the crowd” instead of the preferred “back to wall” (just like Wild Bill Hickok ;)). After a few stops, the crowd thinned a bit, and seats began to open-up.

At this point, I should say that my coworker is NOT racist, and as an Army NCO has professionally worked with and led soldiers on all races. He himself has been a victim of gun shop disservice due his appearance and/or dress. However, the “character” that enters the storyline from this point on definitely attracted his attention.

At one of the later stops, a late teens/early 20’s black male boarded the train. As much as my co-worker hated to admit it (and I hate to write it), he was dressed in perfect “thug” garb- New Air Jordan’s, long shorts w/ white socks pulled-up to the knees, hoodie flipped over his head. That in itself would have normally merited just a glance from my coworker, but this case, the “gentlemen” took a seat immediately behind him and his girlfriend, even with many open seats available. :uhoh:

The sixth sense alarm claxon began sounding in my coworkers head! He watched the guy in the window reflection and saw that he was staring at them the whole time (not looking out the window or glancing around like most people would do). As they approached their station, my co-worker decided that probability of the SHTF was very high if their new found “friend” got off at the same station, since that facility services the Denver Tech Center, a professional business park with little commuter traffic, especially at 0100 hours.

At the stop, my co-worker and his girlfriend got off of the train. My co-worker implemented his quickly conceived plan- on the platform, he bent down to tie his shoe. He figured if the guy got off the train as well, walked past him and continued on his merry way, there may or may not be ill intent. However, if the guy got off and stayed behind him, they were just seconds away from an encounter.

In this case, the guy got off and walked a little bit ahead on the platform, waiting for my coworker and his girlfriend as the train pulled away. :eek:

Even with his real live combat experience, my coworker now experienced the classic adrenaline dump as the seriousness of the situation became apparent.

The “friend” continue to maliciously stare straight at the couple, :what: prompting my coworker to utter a very non-THR series of phrases that translate to “if you mess with me, you are going to get hurt really bad”. :D

As his apparent passive victim had suddenly turned aggressive, the “friend” quickly decided that he had somewhere else to be, and anxiously pressed the elevator button until he departed the platform. My coworker continued to overwatch the area until he deemed it was safe enough for them to make it back to their car.

I am sure to the probable aggressor, my coworker and his girlfriend perfectly fit the mold as potential targets- attractive, well-dressed late 20-somethings, probably carrying excess cash, and a little tipsy from a night “out-on-the-town”.

He this case, he was WRONG! Instead of a “please don’t hurt me” victim, he found himself face-to-face with a Bronze Star wearing recent Combat Veteran. :evil:

My coworker is very into RKBA, having purchased in just the past few months a LMT M-4 clone, a Walther P99, and a .22 MP-5 clone. Needless to say, he will turn-in his CCW application to Douglas County Sheriff this week and is actively seeking a good compact carry gun. :)

Please comment and critique!

Thanks,

Hunter
 
I might have pretended to pick up my cell phone or check my watch. If he was so worried about this guy I wouldn't want to bend over with him out of sight. Other than that handled well IMHO.
 
Nice!

Well first off let's be thankful that the situation didn't get past a few aggressive words spoken by your co-worker. Growing up in downtown Chicago I've expierenced simillar situations quite a number of times, with a few escalating past words, but that's for another time.

I think your coworker did a good job not only identifying himself to the attacker as more then a difficult target, but also hopefully identified himself as an Army veteran and capable of defending himself (can't say how well versed he is in h2h combat as I don't know him) becuase we've all heard horror stories (true or not) about previous combat expierence/training becomming an important factor in civil and criminal court cases. Thankfully the incident did not result in any physical harm to your coworker or his would be attacker, but atleast if in fact there was a physical altercation and your coworker did inflict any physical harm on his attacker, we wouldn't hear another story about a victim paying his attackers medical bills grouped with multiple thousands in punitive damages or attorney fees. Making sure this BG was fully aware of who he was dealing with not only put a stop to the situation but also assured your coworker wouldn't be paying out his a.. if he had to defend himself.
 
I'm glad things turned out well for your friend.

As an aside, I am weary of people who feel compelled to do the "I'm not a racist" song and dance when they react appropriately to thuggish looking young black males. The brutal fact is that young black males commit a grossly disproportionate percentage of violent crimes.

When I assess a situation for threat potential I certainly take race into account as one of the factors. This doesn't make me a "racist", it makes me a realist.
 
Somewhere out there in an alternate cyber-verse, an angry young black grad student is posting a thread about his recent encounter W/ two phsycotic white people. Who started screaming at him when all he wanted to do was walk out to the parking lot W/ them because he was afraid to walk out there by himself.

P.S A Bronze Star is sometimes refered to as a combat Arcom
 
Interesting - your friend did well.

Please comment and critique!

OK - Don't go out late at night until said CCW gun and license are acquired and being CARRIED! What was he thinking?! :)

Somewhere out there in an alternate cyber-verse, an angry young black grad student is posting a thread about his recent encounter W/ two phsycotic white people. Who started screaming at him when all he wanted to do was walk out to the parking lot W/ them because he was afraid to walk out there by himself.

That is certainly possible, but I doubt it with all the details of the guy staring at them, etc.
he was dressed in perfect “thug” garb- New Air Jordan’s, long shorts w/ white socks pulled-up to the knees,

You sure he wasn't a 70+ year old golfer, or ivy league frat boy?
 
If you've noticed someone watching you on the train, would it be a better idea to get off at a stop that is more crowded, even if it's not your stop?

Also, I don't think racial profiling is a good idea for rational and moral reasons, but profiling based on clothing makes sense. If I see a white kid dressed like that I'm going to watch him more carefully than a black kid dressed normally.
 
This might take practice doing it with another person:

Pretend to get off at a stop that it not yours, when the guy follows you out then you just hop back on.

Count how many seconds the doors stay open at the stops, then you'll know how much time you have to work with.

If the guy doesn't follow you off, then you can either get back on if you feel comfortable about his intent, or just wait for the next train.
 
That in itself would have normally merited just a glance from my coworker, but this case, the “gentlemen” took a seat immediately behind him and his girlfriend, even with many open seats available. :uhoh:

About that time I would have smiled, asked "Hey, how ya doin? You live around here, or just night owls out on the town like us . . . " and saw how the conversation went. I don't like to walk around fearful of some intangible uncertainty. I'd get some more information, so that if he got off at my stop I'd know he was not getting off for a legitimate reason.


I'm not sure why it is folks who have their "spidey sense" tingle wait and let it build to the point of high anxiety before they do anything about it. Its certainly not helpful. And in my opinion its harmful to let questionable behavior go unaddressed for that long.
 
Don't see that race had anything to do with it.
The “character” looked like, and acted like a potential bad guy.
I would have been on edge if he got off right behind me.
I'll agree with SsevenN, the only thing I can see he should have done differently would be not bend over.
Even so, everyone went home safe, so he did good.
One other thought. Alex45ACP mentioned getting off at a more crowded stop, even if it isn't your stop. Good idea, provided you're not on the last train of the night. I know some places only run trains every 3-4 hours late night.
 
Luckily the dirt bag wasn't packing, or your friend and wife could have easily been a statistic with his moves. And yes, I've spent years living in Denver prior to getting out. I'm very familiar with the scum that search for victims there.
 
My coworker knows he and his gf were very lucky. He is glad the potential perp did not call his bluff, but at the time, a verbal tirade was the only stand-off weapon he had to work with.

Never Again!

We discuss CCW regularly in our office, and several of us have or are in the process of getting our permits.

He carried a weapon for two years straight in Iraq, and was hoping that he would not have to back here in the good old USA.

I guess not... :(

Hi treo- I know that you will always bring interesting counterpoints into any discussion! :)
 
How many lost souls (like the one who nearly got a thumpin') are roaming the streets?

They had better get right, else they will eventually get aired out by a CCW holder.
 
Ok Here's A Serious Reply

At the end of the day all this pontential bad guy actually did is give your homie a (percieved) dirty look& get off at the same stop, & lest we forget he also ran the first time your friend raised his voice.
I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like a bad guy to me

I can think of a couple of strategies I would have used before escalating the situation
1. change cars (if possible) if thug life follows you up the spidey sense and go for tactic 2.

2. get off the train at the next stop if our Nigerian med student follows you turn around look him right in the eye and say " Pardon me guy, wrong stop let me hop back on the train please"

If, at any point contact is broken, problem solved (W/ out confrontation I might add.).If, on the other hand he's still following you he's upped the anté to the point where deadly force is (IMO) justified.
 
glad it worked out well.

but if your friend started to yell obsenities to the bg first. he may be pouring gas on the fire. by yelling at him, you gave him one more reason to fight. i wouldn't have bent over with the bg out of sight. makes you look vulnerable. . gives the bg an opportunity to take one opponent out fast. i would make it obvious that you are aware of him

i don't think anyone here is racist, just prejudice like everyone is.
 
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i not saying that you should act like your passing grey poupon and act like a gentleman. i have found that body language and eye contact can show that you mean business.
 
Great discission so far...

There are a couple of points is want to emphasize about the story:

- Just like my coworker and his gf, the "gentlemen" had every right to board the train, sit wherever he wants, and exit wherever he chooses.

- When my coworker tied his shoe, the train was still in the station and a few other people were on the platform (not completely isolated yet).

- What moved him from the "fellow mass transit patron" category to the "potentially hostile goblin" category was the intense staring on the train, coupled with the fact that he remained on the platform, standing in the exit area, maliciously staring them down after the train departed. Normal people don't do that! (Try standing outside a police station and hostilely staring at the officers and see how long you last before being confronted.)

- If the same situation had occurred and my friend was using a CCW, I doubt anything would have been different- he would not have drawn, because no physical threat was actually demonstrated, but he would had something to back-up his verbal discouragement.
 
The concept of spacing,

may have been the trigger. Personal space is a very intrinsic part of the psycological "spidersense" we use to discern danger. If the "traveller" chose a seat too close to the couple, he triggered the social ettiquet boundary that started the show. In that situation, I also would have raised the orange flag and prepped the red at the halyard. I also feel getting off the train at a stop other than their own, might've added to the confusion of the situation, denying the couple of 1) knowledgeof the physical location, 2) refuge at the vehicle, 3) confidence that at least they were at the right stop and that perhaps he might/might not be vs. not knowing if they were getting off at his stop. If visual contact and body language/personal space were insufficient to dissuade the traveller, the escalation to shouting was justified in my mind as the hero, stepping into the aggressor/protector role he knew so well. I say BZ, well done, no harm, no foul. Idiots who choose to dress like gangsters should learn the basics of human socialization before trying to tell the sheep from the sheepdogs!;)
P.S. The train door dodge can be seen performed to Gene Hackman in the French Connection.
 
that's something to consider. I ride that same route several times a week, usually late at night. I ride from the Dayton station on I-225 down to the Dry Creek station.

I don't usually CCW when I'm on the train but I carry a 3.5" blade per Colorado law regarding knives.
 
It's good this situation turned out the way it did. The thought while reading this thread occurred to me. If your friend was a little tipsy why was he heading back to his car? A cab may have eliminated the potential for problems in this case.
 
Ravencon, you can't truly say
"The brutal fact is that young black males commit a grossly disproportionate percentage of violent crimes,"
in reality Black males are only caught committing a grossly disproportionate percentage of violent crime then any other offenders, this does not necessarily mean that they are committing more crimes then any other classification of offenders. Other classifications of offenders could be committing crimes that are underreported and not as heavily policed as black males tend to be. Just a thought.

Very good post bullfrog
 
QUOTE: "I don't usually CCW when I'm on the train but I carry a 3.5" blade per Colorado law regarding knives"

If you can legally carry on the train why don't you?
 
Furthur Info...

My coworker was not impaired, and was planning on driving home. His gf was sleepy and nodding on and off during the train ride.

Cabs are a possible option, but very expensive, especially when seemingly safe quality public transportation is available. Instead of the cab, they probably would have just driven downtown themselves and payed the $15 parking fee. Of course, then they would have gotten "hit" walking back to the car. Who knows?
 
Something tells me a night on the town using that train route for transport is something that probably should be avoided entirely at that hour. I don't know if the couple knew this in advance.

We should all learn from it. Not only awareness, but avoidance.

Situational awareness in critical and this situation was handled successfully because of it.

But I think awareness is trumped by avoidance. I'd like to think that if they knew the trains would be deserted and frequented by riff-raff, they would have elected to take an alternative route.
 
Something tells me a night on the town using that train route for transport is something that probably should be avoided entirely at that hour.

I would agree with this, but given this reply, I think the train is a good idea:
Of course, then they would have gotten "hit" walking back to the car.

I lived in Denver for years, and over the past 5 years (give or take) one of the more disturbing trends we saw in violence was "swarm" or "mob" attacks on couples as they walked around LoDo (Lower Downtown) at night (which is a very popular hang out spot for the city).

The basic setup is this: a bunch of folks beat up one or two guys / gals, take their stuff, and leave.

Those beaten go to the hospital, which is where I'd learn about it.

Denver is one of those places that I CCW everywhere I go which seems odd because it's such a nice city.

Thanks,
DFW1911
 
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