Need comments on finding the most accurate powder charge

[J-Bar]

BACKGROUND:

Last fall I asked for advice on downloading my .270 Winchester Ruger #1 to reduce recoil. I chose H4895 powder because it can be downloaded to 60 % of the maximum for a given bullet weight, and I chose 110 grain bullets to reduce recoil momentum. I took two whitetails with the 110 grain Hornady VMax over 29.5 grains of H4895. They were DRT. So I should be satisfied with success, right?

Well, some folks recommended Barnes bullets for through and through penetration, and it was fun shooting groups, so I bought some 110 grain Barnes TSX .277 projectiles to experiment some more.

THE PROBLEM:

I loaded a few test rounds with the Barnes bullets. The beauty of using H4895 is its tremendous range of powder charge weights for a given bullet. The problem of using H4895 is its tremendous range of powder charge weights for a given bullet. Today I shot groups using 30.0, 38.0, and 46.0 grain charges of H4895, hoping that there would be some indication that the rifle likes powder charges at some point in that range. Alas... The 38.0 grain powder charge was about 2", the other two were about 4" at 100 yards. So for practical hunting purposes out to 200/250 yards anything in that range would work on a whitetail, but I really want to find the powder charge that gives the tightest group. Another bit of good news is that I found the recoil from the largest powder charge tolerable.

THE QUESTION:

In order to find the smallest group that H4895 and the Barnes 110 TSX can produce in my Ruger #1, should I start around 38 grains of powder, since it gave me a slightly smaller group today, or should I go back to the minimum of 30 grains, and do increments from there? Another way to state the question...in your experience, do rifles respond dramatically to 0.10 grain powder charge increments, or can one draw conclusions from 0.3 or 0.5 grain increments?

Thanks for your experience and insights.

 

[forty_caliber]

This is an interesting puzzle to ponder. From a comparative standpoint it would good to know how the Hornady V-max groups with the same charge vs the Barnes TSX.

On CBTO. To test this properly, I would think that in addition to the same powder charge the ogive of each bullet would have to be the same distance from the lands. Use an overall length gauge and comparator to determine seating depth for each projectile. I would start with .020 off the lands. (oops .020 typo)

As a general rule of thumb, I've found the middle range charge rates seem to be the most accurate straight out of the book. Since the powder has such a large range I would start +/- .5 grains either side of the middle to create three 5 round test groups with each projectile or 15 rounds of each.

Fire the rounds and record group measurements. Go forth and gather data.

.40

 

[FLIGHT762]

Barnes recommends .050" from the lands. Secondly, Barnes all copper requires high velocity for good expansion. You're likely not going to get great expansion at your lower velocities. For a reduced load, I would suggest you use a regular lead core bullet. It will expand better.

I do use a 110 TTSX in my 270, but I shoot it at 3250 FPS. A friend took a nice Nevada pronghorn @ 300 yards with that load out of his 270 Win.

Been shooting the 270 Win. for over forty years. Took a lot of game with it.

 

[MihiT]

Ladder test.
Ladder test. Ladder test. Ladder test.

Always.


I'm not sure how anyone ever actually gets to a load picking numbers randomly and shooting groups but I spose it's good for powder sales. Also as mentioned, seating depth.
OGIVE should be 0.02" / 0.5mm off the lands to start with. If you didn't adjust your die from the last bullets you used, or you're measuring/loading to mag length then you're very potentially forfeiting accuracy.

 

[mustanger98]

Hey J-Bar, I'm not real sure what to say about Barnes since I don't have experience there, but in absence of expansion at your velocities, I think I'd take a look at that Hornady 120gr some of us were discussing in your other threads.

 

[JimKirk]

Barnes all copper requires high velocity for good expansion. You're likely not going to get great expansion at your lower velocities.

This ^^

Barnes bullets need to be run as fast as possible .... for lower velocity rounds ... stick with softer core bullets....

 

[horsey300]

BACKGROUND:

Last fall I asked for advice on downloading my .270 Winchester Ruger #1 to reduce recoil. I chose H4895 powder because it can be downloaded to 60 % of the maximum for a given bullet weight, and I chose 110 grain bullets to reduce recoil momentum. I took two whitetails with the 110 grain Hornady VMax over 29.5 grains of H4895. They were DRT. So I should be satisfied with success, right?

Well, some folks recommended Barnes bullets for through and through penetration, and it was fun shooting groups, so I bought some 110 grain Barnes TSX .277 projectiles to experiment some more.

THE PROBLEM:

I loaded a few test rounds with the Barnes bullets. The beauty of using H4895 is its tremendous range of powder charge weights for a given bullet. The problem of using H4895 is its tremendous range of powder charge weights for a given bullet. Today I shot groups using 30.0, 38.0, and 46.0 grain charges of H4895, hoping that there would be some indication that the rifle likes powder charges at some point in that range. Alas... The 38.0 grain powder charge was about 2", the other two were about 4" at 100 yards. So for practical hunting purposes out to 200/250 yards anything in that range would work on a whitetail, but I really want to find the powder charge that gives the tightest group. Another bit of good news is that I found the recoil from the largest powder charge tolerable.

THE QUESTION:

In order to find the smallest group that H4895 and the Barnes 110 TSX can produce in my Ruger #1, should I start around 38 grains of powder, since it gave me a slightly smaller group today, or should I go back to the minimum of 30 grains, and do increments from there? Another way to state the question...in your experience, do rifles respond dramatically to 0.10 grain powder charge increments, or can one draw conclusions from 0.3 or 0.5 grain increments?

Thanks for your experience and insights.

I agree with coppers and velocity, essentially you're creating a fmj load. I also agree with seating depth, I'd check to lands length, and then seat ever so slightly deeper until you see them tighten up just a wee bit better.
Now charge weights, I'd be loading 30.3, 30.9, 31.2, 31.5, 31.8, 32.1 (etc etc) until you found something promising. I'd test coal with your 38 gr charge as it showed the most promise, THEN work up with .3 of a gr, in my .243 I'll work .4 of a gr (charge weights in the 40s) in my stw, .5-.8 gr charge differences (charge weights in the 80s), and the on the other hand, my .223 gets .2 for 20 gr charge weights and my pistols get .1. The fun of reloading is that if your best accuracy shows up around 37.5 (random selection) with a coal of 3.15" (also random), you can ask yourself, what if I drop down to 37.4 or 37.3, or bump up to 37.6? Good luck with your project sir!

 

[jmr40]

In my experience Barnes bullets are more accurate when pushed hard. And they need the speed to expand. I don't think they are a good option for your uses.

 

[J-Bar]

In my experience Barnes bullets are more accurate when pushed hard. And they need the speed to expand. I don't think they are a good option for your uses.

You may well be correct, and I can't make an argument from personal experience. But Barnes has published some interesting videos to address that question. The link is to Midway USA's ad for the bullet I have and below the ad itself are three videos from Barnes, supposedly to "bust some myths." The first video addresses expansion at lower velocity/long distance.

I'm leaning towards loading towards the heavier powder charges since the recoil with the 110 grain bullet was tolerable. The .270 Winchester at those speeds starts to look like a .257 Weatherby, at least on paper!

Link to ad:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...0-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

 

[lordpaxman]

Another way to state the question...in your experience, do rifles respond dramatically to 0.10 grain powder charge increments, or can one draw conclusions from 0.3 or 0.5 grain increments?

I'd do an OCW workup, that way you'd find where precision didn't depend as much on charge weight. IME it's also a velocity plateau and usually a decent group. Once you have that charge, you can vary the COL based on Berger's recommendations for finding the optimum COL quickly.

 

[J-Bar]

I'd do an OCW workup, that way you'd find where precision didn't depend as much on charge weight. IME it's also a velocity plateau and usually a decent group. Once you have that charge, you can vary the COL based on Berger's recommendations for finding the optimum COL quickly.

OK, have patience please: I expect IME is "in my experience", COL is "cartridge overall length", but I don't know what OCW is. If it has something to do with a chronograph I'm probably out of luck since I don't own one, and would prefer to not have to buy one!

 

[MihiT]

OK, have patience please: I expect IME is "in my experience", COL is "cartridge overall length", but I don't know what OCW is. If it has something to do with a chronograph I'm probably out of luck since I don't own one, and would prefer to not have to buy one!

"Optimum Charge Weight"
It's a method that in theory, and often but not always on paper, gets you to a good shooting node.

Get a chronograph.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I don't recommend them unless you are trying to use a super high velocity cartridge that over stresses cup and core bullets. Or trying to flatten trajectory by shooting a lighter bullet faster.
You are trying to go slow. This is what the traditional bullet excels at.

 

[Legionnaire]

I'd give up on the Barnes. Find a bullet that performs at the velocity you want to achieve, then look for a powder with good case fill that gets you that velocity with that bullet. You don't want a powder with 60% case fill. I'd be curious to know what velocity a case full of Trail Boss would get you with your 110 bullets.

But in answer to your original question, I generally do my initial tests at .3 or .4 grain increments.

 

[jmr40]

The link is to Midway USA's ad for the bullet I have and below the ad itself are three videos from Barnes, supposedly to "bust some myths." The first video addresses expansion at lower velocity/long distance.

That video simply confirms what every one has been saying. The Barnes spokesman is parsing his words. They clearly state in the video that they were showing impact velocity of 2200 fps, which is what everyone else says is needed for Barnes or any other copper bullet to work. They don't show you what happens when bullets impact at slower speeds. Most any standard lead based bullet will still give good expansion down to 1800 fps and many as slow as 1600 fps. I'll give credit where credit is due. As long as impact speeds are above 2200 fps any of the copper bullets are devastating. Below that thresh hold not so much. And you can't shoot them too fast. Conventional lead based bullets will often over expand with impact speeds over 2800-3000 fps.

I don't know what kind of speeds you're getting with 30-38 gr of powder, but my guess is that it isn't much more than 2200 fps at the muzzle. And the 110gr has such a poor BC it is probably going to be well below 2200 fps at 100-150 yards with reduced loads. It may work, but is certainly a close range bullet option. Even with full power loads my 308 will drop below the 2200 fps thresh hold at only 300 yards. I can use a different bullet and still retain 1800 fps out past 600 yards

These photos are borrowed from Noslers website comparing their copper bullet to their Accubond at various impact speeds. Based on what I've seen Barnes and all other copper bullets will do the same.

Top row is Noslers copper E-Tip bullet, bottom row Nosler Accubond. With the copper bullets it is clear that they need to impact fast to work.

 

[lordpaxman]

OK, have patience please: I expect IME is "in my experience", COL is "cartridge overall length", but I don't know what OCW is. If it has something to do with a chronograph I'm probably out of luck since I don't own one, and would prefer to not have to buy one!

@MihiT got it. However, you don’t need a chrono for OCW, but you do need one to find velocity plateaus. I just use a chrono for OCW when I do it.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

There are also schools of thought that suggest a minimum of 5 shot groups, so if you went .1 grains with 5 shots you’ll definitely get some good trigger time! I think what it comes down to is there are probably 1-3 accuracy nodes in your range, and a .1 delta might make a difference but probably on the edge of a .3-.5 delta.

I’m not a Barnes bullet guy, but others are suggesting maybe you would be better off with a different technology. I’d settle on the bullet first since you’re going to invest time and resource in tracking down an accurate and precise load. These forums will definitely provide you with a few different opinions. From your OP it sounds like the VMax wasn’t a bad choice, there are other bullets similar to your VMax if you want to experiment and they may just be a drop in with your current charge weight and COL. Good Luck!

 

[jmorris]

Another way to state the question...in your experience, do rifles respond dramatically to 0.10 grain powder charge increments, or can one draw conclusions from 0.3 or 0.5 grain increments?

Excellent question and yes some rifles, loads, even barrels can respond to not only to a .1 grain of powder but some even more to wind, than others.

What you want to go for is “forgiving”. Ideal would be to “aim” for the middle of what the combination likes that way you can error the most, with the least amount of negative effect in group size.

 

[Legionnaire]

BACKGROUND:

Last fall I asked for advice on downloading my .270 Winchester Ruger #1 to reduce recoil. I chose H4895 powder because it can be downloaded to 60 % of the maximum for a given bullet weight, and I chose 110 grain bullets to reduce recoil momentum. I took two whitetails with the 110 grain Hornady VMax over 29.5 grains of H4895.

Okay, I have QuickLoad open in front of me. QL predicts a muzzle velocity of 1,880 fps with your load from a 20-inch barrel, just over 2,000 fps from a 24-inch barrel. Your case fill is only 50.4% and you're only burning 76.73% of the powder, for a ballistic efficiency of 15.1% That's giving you a max pressure just under 35,000 psi compared to the 65,000 max SAAMI spec for the .270 Win. That should give you a general approximation of what you are working with.

If you are comfortable with that level of recoil, there are no doubt better options even with your 110 VMax. For instance, 19.7 grains of Trail Boss (99.9% case fill) is predicted to drive your 110 to 1,928 fps from a 20-inch barrel, 2,000 fps from a 24-inch barrel. You'll burn 100% of the powder for a ballistic efficiency upwards of 30%.

Here are the ballistics for your load, using Hornady's calculator:

Ballistic Calculator
INPUT VARIABLES
Ballistic Coefficient:0.37
Velocity (ft/s):2000
Weight (GR):110
Maximum Range (yds):400
Interval (yds):50
Drag Function ():G1
Sight Height (inches):1.5
Shooting Angle (Deg.):0
Zero Range (yds):100
Pressure (hg):29.53
Temperature (F):59
Humidity (%):78

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory
0 2000 977.0 -1.5
50 1898 880.0 0.5
100 1800 791.0 0.0
150 1705 710.0 -3.1
200 1615 637.0 -9.3
250 1529 571.0 -18.7
300 1447 512.0 -31.9
350 1371 459.0 -49.3
400 1300 413.0 -71.3

You need to find a bullet that performs at these velocities (not the Barnes), and a powder to drive it efficiently.

 

[J-Bar]

Thanks for your input but I have no interest in experimenting with Trailboss.

I think you missed my earlier comment about probably loading the Barnes towards the high end of allowable powder charges.

 

[Legionnaire]

Roger that; I did miss it. I'll be interested to hear what you think of the recoil once you move up to full charges with the Barnes. My interest is more than academic. I inherited my father-in-law's 7mm Magnum and frankly, I don't enjoy shooting it. Working up a new load for it is not at the top of my priority list, but I have been thinking about doing so as time permits. Lighter bullet, different powder, some combination, etc.

Keep us posted on how you make out with the Barnes.

 

[z7]

How well can you shoot that gun with factory ammo? If you can’t get better than a 2” group with factory ammo, maybe that is the best you and the gun can produce,

If you can get factory ammo to shoot 1” groups or less, then your reloads need work

As others have said, Barnes tsx need speed to work well

I’d work in the faster area of the load data, if the highest charge you tried didn’t show pressure signs I’d work in that area, maybe +1 grain (in small steps if it is not above max) and -1 grain in small steps like .3g

 

[J-Bar]

How well can you shoot that gun with factory ammo? If you can’t get better than a 2” group with factory ammo, maybe that is the best you and the gun can produce,

I can get 1” groups with commercial ammo, and I shot a few 1/2” groups with my VMax downloads. So I think the rifle shoots ok, particularly since Ruger #1s are not normally considered to be tack drivers.

Thanks to all who commented, good information here. Hopefully I can get some range time in between rain and tornadoes and draw some conclusions. If I can get some bragging targets, I will post them. Otherwise I’ll slink away quietly!