Need ORIGINAL FIRST HAND accounts of cylinder swapping in cap and ball revolver

[99octane]

I'd like to know if anybody has found any original, first hand account of spare cylinders being issued with revolvers (Navy, Army, Remington 1858 etc.) to troopers, to be used for "fast reloadsing", or first hand accounts of spare cylinders being used this way.
I know Paterson revolvers came with a spare cylinder, I'm interested in subsequent firearms.
I know the practice is mentioned in several modern historical and fictional works, but I'm looking for any original proof: letters, diaries, registers of units or arsenal inventories, sale accounts from manufacturers to the army, issue receipts for revolvers with multiple cylinders, requisitioned or captured arms registers, pictures or... well, anything original that would prove that having a revolver with multiple cylinders was if not common, at least real, and original accounts of them being used for fast reloads. Letters from soldiers, diaries, pictures again, military manuals and so.

 

[Tommygunn]

We've discussed this in earlier posts, and IIRC correctly, no one has actually found such an account. From what I've read myself, I believe the most common reload was having a second, or third revolver. Some guerrilla warrior groups did this, and it is the most efficient system if you have the guns.

I once opined that changing cylinders may have happened, but people didn't write about it as they also didn't write about cleaning their guns, or brushing their teeth, or lacing their boots, or any other common day-to-day activity.

But that is only my opinion ..... the "truth may be out there," but it's gonna be hard to nail down, I think.

 

[paul harm]

Why do you want to know ? Are you writing some kind of paper about it ? It's like why no short starters have ever been found. I caught the Chinese flu and after a couple of weeks in the hospital and some more bed ridden my legs kinda gave out on me and I don't go up and down the stairs right now. If I think of it when I get back to the bedroom I have a book about 1858 Remingtons. Pretty dry reading, but if I remember correctly they did make extra cylinders for the Army during the Civil War. I'll try to remember and look into it.

 

[99octane]

We've discussed this in earlier posts, and IIRC correctly, no one has actually found such an account. From what I've read myself, I believe the most common reload was having a second, or third revolver. Some guerrilla warrior groups did this, and it is the most efficient system if you have the guns.

I once opined that changing cylinders may have happened, but people didn't write about it as they also didn't write about cleaning their guns, or brushing their teeth, or lacing their boots, or any other common day-to-day activity.

But that is only my opinion ..... the "truth may be out there," but it's gonna be hard to nail down, I think.

Thank you.
I'm just trying to find anything conclusive on the topic. Pictures I've seen show people carrying more than one revolver, and I believe if I wanted to have more firepower, I wouldn't have bothered trying swapping cylinders on horseback, I'd just get another loaded gun, but I know nothing about riding, and guns were pretty expensive back then. Truth is: I don't know, and I'd like to. So, here I am looking for some hard data.

 

[99octane]

Why do you want to know ? Are you writing some kind of paper about it ? It's like why no short starters have ever been found. I caught the Chinese flu and after a couple of weeks in the hospital and some more bed ridden my legs kinda gave out on me and I don't go up and down the stairs right now. If I think of it when I get back to the bedroom I have a book about 1858 Remingtons. Pretty dry reading, but if I remember correctly they did make extra cylinders for the Army during the Civil War. I'll try to remember and look into it.

Thanks. Take care.

 

[arcticap]

I'd like to know if anybody has found any original, first hand account of spare cylinders being issued with revolvers (Navy, Army, Remington 1858 etc.) to troopers, to be used for "fast reloadsing", or first hand accounts of spare cylinders being used this way.

I'm not going to do a lot of research for first hand documentation online.
That's what historians try to do.
But I did find mention about a photo in a book showing that Custer was presented with a cased Remington set with a spare cylinder.
I didn't read the rest of the thread past post #18, but perhaps you can.
I did a simple Google search for --- use of spare cylinders in civil war ---.

Post #13:
"Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" by Garavaglia and Worman.
Post #17:
"Garavaglia and Worman, 1866 - 1894. In the section on pistols,..."
Post #18:
"In fact, I see that the Remington 1858 cased set presented to Custer does in fact have an additional cylinder in the upper right hand corner which I completely missed...."
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/the-myth-of-cylinder-swapping.42702/

 

[arcticap]

Note post #6 in the same thread about a Remington-Beals 1861 revolver that was [factory] altered to be able to swap cylinders without dropping the loading lever.

 

[99octane]

Note post #6 in the same thread about a Remington-Beals 1861 revolver that was [factory] altered to be able to swap cylinders without dropping the loading lever.

Thanks. The whole thread was very interesting.

 

[damoc]

You will have to confirm this but the only actual instances where it may have been used that I can think of was by Texas Rangers and the Pony express
Billy Tate pony express was one instance I thought it was used but cant find reference to the firearm and or cylinder carried anymore

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So, the guy has a dual cylinder pouch..., including one extra cylinder within the pouch..., but we wonder if he ever switched them out "in combat". Why would you carry one or two, if you weren't going to switch one out in battle? If you're not engaged, or during a "lull" in the fighting and need a quick swap..., then you have time to load the basic way..., no?

LD

 

[Dave T]

The point that is frequently over looked when discussing this subject is that a spare, loaded and capped cylinder is a hand grenade waiting to be dropped or bumped hard enough. They didn't have all the safety-Nazis back in the cap-n-ball era we do today but I still would expect someone to say, "Yer gonna blow yer leg off carrin' that thing if ya drop it!" (smile)

Dave

 

[Steve Milbocker]

The “Preacher” in Pale Rider did the cylinder swap with his Remington so it would have be fact Sorry I couldn’t resist

 

[99octane]

View attachment 1002749 View attachment 1002753 Good luck on your search for a written account of a cylinder exchange. It probably happened but I don’t recall ever reading about one. This is a great Confederate rig out of Texas used by Colonel FS Bass. The belt pouch still contains one cylinder. It’s too bad we couldn’t ask the good Colonel if he ever switched one out in combat.
There’s just so many more accounts of guys just carrying extra revolvers instead of cylinder exchanges.

Thanks. I've seen many pictures like that, of people carrying more revolvers. I've seen guys carrying two Navy revolvers in their holsters, and some Pockets tucked here and there.
I too believe people carried more than one revolver, rather than more than one cylinder, but I'm verifying the opposite for completeness of research.

 

[Sim Carstairs]

So, the guy has a dual cylinder pouch..., including one extra cylinder within the pouch..., but we wonder if he ever switched them out "in combat". Why would you carry one or two, if you weren't going to switch one out in battle? If you're not engaged, or during a "lull" in the fighting and need a quick swap..., then you have time to load the basic way..., no?

LD

LD, oftentimes snarky and oftentimes missing the point... I don’t think the guy was lugging around all that extra weight if he wasn’t going to perhaps use it when he needed it most, but it would have been nice for the sake of the OP’s research if the Colonel could have officially verified how and when he actually used it for historical record.

I can see why people make one or two posts here and are gone.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

LD, oftentimes snarky and oftentimes missing the point... I don’t think the guy was lugging around all that extra weight if he wasn’t going to perhaps use it when he needed it most, but it would have been nice for the sake of the OP’s research if the Colonel could have officially verified how and when he actually used it for historical record.

I can see why people make one or two posts here and are gone.

I had no idea that posting on the obvious was considered "snarky" by some.

The fallacy is the idea that there must be some sort of "written" account to "verify" something.

By that standard, we should conclude that although a person in a photo who carries an 1858 Remington, since they never wrote down "I shot at some [yankees/rebels] today", it's not valid to conclude from their photo they ever fired their handgun in battle? BUT WAIT...,even then if they had made such an entry into their diary, they didn't specify "with my revolver"...HUH?

Was he speed loading like an IPSC revolver shooter or even Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider..., most likely not. He was carrying the extra cylinder(s) for some reason..., what could that be I wonder? Is there a simpler answer than he wanted one for a faster reload than loading powder, ramming ball, and capping five or six individual chambers when time might mean his living or dying?

LD

 

[damoc]

The Billy Tate pony express story is a good example of what was never written down but in many ways well documented. Policy of the pony express was to carry 1 small revolver with extra cyl to save on weight. Billy tate was killed in his fight with the native tribes and probably most of his belongings lost including revolvers but a young lad of 17 took 7 indian warriors with him and he was never scalped which was apparently a sign of respect. So Billy Tate may not have left us a diary but their is a lot of evidence that he did use a quick change cyl in his last fight.

 

[StrawHat]

…The “Preacher” in Pale Rider did the cylinder swap with his Remington so it would have be fact …

Doesn’t count! The question was about c&b revolvers. The movie had him swap a cartridge cylinder. And without dumping the cartridges!


Kevin

 

[paul harm]

Well, I have extra cylinders and I just don't look at em. If I would have been in the Civil War you can bet your boots an extra cylinder would come in handy and would have been used.

 

[StrawHat]

Well, I have extra cylinders and I just don't look at em. If I would have been in the Civil War you can bet your boots an extra cylinder would come in handy and would have been used.

You would swap out cylinders rather than just draw a spare revolver? As I recall from listening to old men and reading older diaries, the average soldier was discretely throwing things away that were perceived as excess cargo. Lightening the load since they traveled everywhere by foot

Kevin

 

[grter]

My impression due to the fact that gun companies actually sold revolvers with spare cylinders made and fitted for them is that it was done but not a widespread practice.

Carrying capped cylinders presents a number of problems.ranging from caps falling off to accidentally discharging them. Spare cylinders are not exactly light weight or ergonomically shaped so I suppose a specially designed pouch would be needed.

I will also point out that back then and even to this day a New York reload is the fastest.

 

[DocRock]

In Sixguns, Keith recounts his discussions with a pair of Civil War veterans about the efficacy and use of the cap and ball revolver. As I recall, they made mention of carrying several revolvers and trying to pick up more. I do not recall any mention of changing cylinders.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Preacher had them in Pale Rider.

 

[99octane]

I had no idea that posting on the obvious was considered "snarky" by some.

The fallacy is the idea that there must be some sort of "written" account to "verify" something.

By that standard, we should conclude that although a person in a photo who carries an 1858 Remington, since they never wrote down "I shot at some [yankees/rebels] today", it's not valid to conclude from their photo they ever fired their handgun in battle? BUT WAIT...,even then if they had made such an entry into their diary, they didn't specify "with my revolver"...HUH?

Was he speed loading like an IPSC revolver shooter or even Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider..., most likely not. He was carrying the extra cylinder(s) for some reason..., what could that be I wonder? Is there a simpler answer than he wanted one for a faster reload than loading powder, ramming ball, and capping five or six individual chambers when time might mean his living or dying?

LD

The fallacy is presuming a complete mindset from a very simple question when "I don't know" would have been a far more useful, sensible and worthwile answer.
Anyway, don't worry, I have a little knowledge about the use of sources, critical analysis, crossreferencing and about what does or doesn't constitute proof, or at least circumstantial evidence.

Now, to be clear, written accounts are one among many sources for knowing the past, and one of the best, but as with anything from the past, the weight of a single element may vary a lot: it may be something, may be not that much, depending upon source and circumstances.
An official document like an arsenal inventory, or an issue order, carries much different weight from a letter home saying "Dear Molly, today thanks to the second cylinder we usually carry loaded for emergencies I can still hug you and the kids..." and again several dozen such letters and diaries may carry more weight than an inventory.
Physical evidence (battlefield finds, armory storage specimens and such) are obviously even better.
Any such evidence is really appreciated.
Thanks to anyone who is willing to contribute constructively.

As to the question "Is there a simpler answer...", the answer is: yes.

 

[99octane]

The Billy Tate pony express story is a good example of what was never written down but in many ways well documented. Policy of the pony express was to carry 1 small revolver with extra cyl to save on weight. Billy tate was killed in his fight with the native tribes and probably most of his belongings lost including revolvers but a young lad of 17 took 7 indian warriors with him and he was never scalped which was apparently a sign of respect. So Billy Tate may not have left us a diary but their is a lot of evidence that he did use a quick change cyl in his last fight.

Yes, I've read about the Pony Express, but all I found was from contemporary authors. I couldn't find direct evidence.
Can you go in more depth about the ways it is well documented? It's exactly what I'm looking for.
Are there perhaps pictures?
First hand accounts documented from primary sources (an author recording that Joe Smith who was a Pony Express when he was a kid told him they used to do so and so)?
Any direct, primary source would be helpful.
Thanks for your help.

 

[99octane]

Preacher had them in Pale Rider.

Yes, but a movie is hardly a historical source.

In Sixguns, Keith recounts his discussions with a pair of Civil War veterans about the efficacy and use of the cap and ball revolver. As I recall, they made mention of carrying several revolvers and trying to pick up more. I do not recall any mention of changing cylinders.

And it made a lot of sense. Cap and ball revolvers were known for getting stuck from black powder fouling after a few shots, and cap fragments could fall into the action binding it and requiring disassembly to solve the issue.
Having a second gun handy would have been a lifesaver then. Many carried as much as 4 or 5. Not all of the same type: handguns were heavy, but a Colt 1862 Pocket weighed very little, and still held 5 .36 shots, and up close was as deadly as a Navy... And even a 1849 with its .31 bullets wasn't anything to laugh about...