New 4473 Question

TomJ

TomJ

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I just stopped at a LGS to pick up a Staccato CS. There was a new question on the 4473, asking if you live in town, outside town or are unsure. I'm curious as to why they're asking that and was wondering if anyone had any insight.
 
Night Rider said:
It seems a little redundant given you have to put your address on the form anyway
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It's not redundant.
Plenty of people have addresses with a city name, but don't live within the city limits.
For example I used to live in Houston, TX 77069........two miles north of the actual city limits of Houston. If I called 911 the county sheriff or precinct constables would respond. For fire it wasn't HFD, but the Champions Are VFD. (this wasn't a rural are by any means, just not inside the city limits)
 
PapaG said:
Form 4473 has had no common sense component since 1968.
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Huh?
Since the Gun Control Act of 1968 is what mandated the Form 4473, the form reflects exactly the intent of Congress. These changes reflect the laws passed by Congress last summer.

Saying it doesn't have a common sense component, lack sense of any sort.
 
WestKentucky said:
The electronic one I filled in today seemed overly concerned about straw purchases. I used to think that saying that the purchase was for me once was good enough. Today I got to say that in a few different ways…which I’m certain was more than enough.
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Yeah, whatever attorney wrote those new questions should be disbarred.

I warn customers that the form has changed and to read each question carefully. Then their head explodes with that word soup.
 
dogtown tom said:
It's not redundant.
Plenty of people have addresses with a city name, but don't live within the city limits.
For example I used to live in Houston, TX 77069........two miles north of the actual city limits of Houston. If I called 911 the county sheriff or precinct constables would respond. For fire it wasn't HFD, but the Champions Are VFD. (this wasn't a rural are by any means, just not inside the city limits)
Click to expand...

It's still redundant. Your address pinpoint your location exactly how is whether or not it's in the city limits relevant?
 
No, that's not really how addresses work. e911 addresses put almost everyone with an address in A City, but it isn't clear from that if they actually reside (their house occupies space) within municipal limits. Addresses have only a tenuous relationship to physical boundaries and by no means are GIS databases either up to date or accessible to folks like the FBI. Unlike TV, not everyone gets access to every database. At all.

Anyway, it's added on pursuant to an actual law that requires NICS denials to notify local LE about it:
https://le.fbi.gov/informational-tools/nics-denial-notifications-for-law-enforcement

If you want to read the text, see the
NICS DENIAL NOTIFICATION ACT OF 2022

Anyway, federal agency compliance with the law is best-effort, unlike most corporate level minimum compliance, so this question helps them determine if they provide the information to the city police for the municipality in the address line, or use the part where they have long asked you which county (again, no easy and reliable way to determine that without asking) to send it to the Sheriff's Office/Department instead.
 
Plenty of people have addresses with a city name, but don't live within the city limits.
Click to expand...

My brother lives 3 miles away with a different zip code. We both live in the same county. My mail comes from the post office in the county seat. I'm only 3-2 miles outside the city limits and 6 miles from the post office. He gets his mail from a tiny town 20-30 miles away and in the next county.
 
In a little over 12 years with my FFL a I have not had an applicant denied the transfer for a firearm. I’ve had plenty of delays but all came through OK.
Local law enforcement can check on the occupants at an address of a denied status. I don’t know if they have to. I know of a guy who long ago had a domestic abuse charge from his ex wife that was not prosecuted but somehow he was denied the transfer of a rifle.
 
As stated, this is a new requirement as part of the 2022 Appropriations Act found here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th...lidated","appropriations","act","of","2022"]}

And here is what the new regulations states from here: https://le.fbi.gov/informational-tools/nics-denial-notifications-for-law-enforcement

Why You Are Being Notified
By October 1, 2022, the FBI will be required by law to report National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS) denied transactions to state, local, or tribal law enforcement within 24 hours.

When You Will Be Notified
When a person receives a NICS denial notification, we will notify law enforcement based on:

  • city, state, county, and zip code combination of the federal firearms licensee (FFL) (seller) location
  • city, state, county, and zip code combination of the attempted transferee’s (purchaser/recipient) home address, when different from the FFL location
Click to expand...

High Plains said:
In a little over 12 years with my FFL a I have not had an applicant denied the transfer for a firearm. I’ve had plenty of delays but all came through OK.
Local law enforcement can check on the occupants at an address of a denied status. I don’t know if they have to. I know of a guy who long ago had a domestic abuse charge from his ex wife that was not prosecuted but somehow he was denied the transfer of a rifle.
Click to expand...

And here is the answer to your specific question.

What You Should Do With This Information - Policies and Procedures
The law does not require you to take any action when you receive these notifications. The FBI’s NICS Section will not ask you to take any action.

Your state and/or agency will need to establish policy and procedures on what action to take based on denial notifications, as appropriate under your authorities. Contact your respective state CJIS Systems Agency/Officer or agency administration for guidance on handling denial notifications.
Click to expand...
 
I will say this, the background check I did today came back quicker than a credit check does so it couldn’t have been all that deep. I do provide my SSN because I apparently have doppelgängers with colorful criminal history… and a famous pornographer.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
So...is there a downside to just always indicating "Unsure?"
How could they ever prove someone is sure of anything...ya know kinda like Im "unsure" as to my gender from day to day.
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If you know that is not a “true, correct and complete” answer, I wouldn’t suggest you sign your name, attesting that it is.
 
dogtown tom said:
Yeah, whatever attorney wrote those new questions should be disbarred.

I warn customers that the form has changed and to read each question carefully. Then their head explodes with that word soup.
Click to expand...
I go to my LGS just to see the 4473's sometimes. I just think the changes are interesting.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
So...is there a downside to just always indicating "Unsure?"
How could they ever prove someone is sure of anything...ya know kinda like Im "unsure" as to my gender from day to day.
Click to expand...

I’m legitimately unsure what the correct answer is in my own case, and IMO my situation is pretty common so I’m sure I’m not the only one. I live, per my address, nominally within a suburb called, let’s say, “Fieldville,” in a subdivision. However I truly have no idea whether I live within actual city limits of that place or not. I’m guessing not, but wouldn’t want to essentially swear to it, which is what a 4473 asks you to do.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
So...is there a downside to just always indicating "Unsure?"
Click to expand...
As long as you answer honestly, no.
But if you know that answer and respond with "unsure".......you commit a felony when you sign tha form.

How could they ever prove someone is sure of anything
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Bruce Abramski knows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States He wasn't the first to sign a 4473 and then flip a gun or quickly sell it, and no one would have ever known if his home hadn't been searched. He was sure he was the actual buyer, despite the instructions on the 4473. He chose poorly.

It astounds me that anyone old enough to buy a gun would not know if they lived within their city limits. I knew that by first grade. I've known that with every apartment I've rented, in every house I've owned. It's not like you can't Google your address. It's not like you don't pay taxes. It's not like city government send bills,
 
Rubone said:
It is about regulations. Some municipalities ban certain items but the county they are in does not, so it triggers a denial if you are in a restricted area. .
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How sure are you about that? I'm having a little trouble with the idea that a NICS check on me involves comparing my address to the West Fencepost Municipal Code.
 
dogtown tom said:
Huh?
Since the Gun Control Act of 1968 is what mandated the Form 4473, the form reflects exactly the intent of Congress. These changes reflect the laws passed by Congress last summer.

Saying it doesn't have a common sense component, lack sense of any sort.
Click to expand...
I've been using them as a dealer and customer since they were imposed on us in 1968. I know what, why, and when they began. They serve no positive purpose for good citizens other than control. And no, afaik the people I vote for don’t support it but in a blue run state my options are limited.
 
Last edited:
Where I used to work, all of the mountain communities residents got their mail at the post offices, there was no home delivery by the USPS.

So, these folks commonly used their postal box numbers as addresses on driver licenses, vehicle registrations, utilities, etc. and all of those things are primary and/or secondary ID’s (you need two forms of ID in Ca to buy firearms).

But the PO Box is often miles from the physical residence. I believe that is a part that the form update was trying to fix, adding the actual physical address where the buyer resides.

There are always exceptions that can not fall into any known address. Our family ranch has no physical address numbers and it was located on a single track dirt road over 2 miles from our mailbox. The box itself was on Verde Creek Road with all of the other ranch boxes.

The only “address” we had was Rural Route 3, Box 65A, Center Point, Tx. I have no idea how that would be handled.

Stay safe.
 
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