Should Ethnicity and Race matter on 4473?

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nwilliams

nwilliams

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The new version of the 4473 came out a few days ago and there is a new question on the form "Ethnicity" as well as "Race".

At the gun shop I work at today we (employees) got into a discussion about this new question and what the point of it is. My feeling is that if you are a US citizen then race and ethnicity shouldn't matter. I should point out that I'm a white male but if I'm selling a gun to someone I couldn't care less what the person's ethnicity and race is, if they are legally allowed to purchase a firearm then what difference does it make if they are white, black, Hispanic, Asian or any other ethnicity or race. To me it sounds like a form of racial profiling and as clerk at a gun shop it puts it in my hands to determine whether or not the person filling out the form is being honest about their race and ethnicity and to be honest I've met and know a lot of people who claim to be Hispanic or Latino but look 100% Caucasian to me, who am I to judge? If someone looks white and claims to be Hispanic when filling out the form am I supposed to tell them to correct what they checked off on the form or I can't sell them a gun?

In my view if you are asking whether someone is Hispanic or Latino you might as well just put on the form "are you trying to smuggle guns into Mexico". It's no different than racially profiling African Americans as probable gang members or Middle Eastern people as probable terrorist. I'm sorry but if you're a citizen of the US and legally allowed to purchase a firearm then what race or ethnicity you are is irrelevant.

Here is the new question on the 4473 in case you haven't seen it yet....
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Here is the ATF's explanation to the new question on the 4473. To be honest the explanation really doesn't make any sense to me.
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It's on there for the same reason the height and weight are: identification purposes. Is it part of your job as a clerk to guess if they are being honest about their weight? Do you think the weight section on there is to profile fat people? :)

a lot of people who claim to be Hispanic or Latino but look 100% Caucasian to me
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Histpanic/Latino and Caucasian are not mutually exclusive.

Ethnicity and race are two separate things are far as the federal government is concerned.
 
It should not matter at all. In my opinion the only things they should ask on you that form are:

Full Name
Adress
Make/Model/S# of Firearm
Are You A US Citizen? (Yes/No)
Are You Law Abiding? (Yes/No)
Are You Over 18 (21 for handguns)? (Yes/No)

If personal information is correct and none of the above are answered "no" then you get your gun. Simple as that.
 
Race has always been a question on 4473 but I never saw the point. If they have your name, address, SSN (if given) DOB, etc. why does it matter? I'm sure it's just another identifying means to put on their worthless books. (I say worthless because in many states private sales are legal so the 'registration' is pointless)
 
I'm currently in a job search and a lot of defense contractors' websites have this question...even to the exclusion of choices of the other races...I noticed it last week.

It got to be some sweeping request from the census folks or something. "Hispanic or not" is on a bunch of forms now.
 
Do you think the weight section on there is to profile fat people?
Click to expand...

I'm in deep alfalfa if this is true.

It got to be some sweeping request from the census folks or something. "Hispanic or not" is on a bunch of forms now.
Click to expand...
[strike]No, it's a function of being an EOE which is how all companies are classified if they do business with Uncle Sam.[/strike]

Never mind. Mis-read the post.
 
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With the Army, it's called EEO, Equal Opportunity Employment. I find it ironic that they ask you on the application if they're not supposed to discriminate :/

I think it matters from the perspective of if your name is fairly common, like Daniel Smith, to help determine which Daniel Smith is being referred to. If you're Daniel Smith, black, hispanic; and Daniel Smith, white, not hispanic is wanted for armed robbery and indecent exposure, then be glad there's things to identify you as not the wrong Daniel Smith!
 
No, in this case it's something else...I think it's as simple as demographics data addressing the new trend of Hispanic population growing so fast and becoming so statistically significant...just my guess.

Some of the forms don't ask the particular race only if it's Hispanic "or not", not even asking what the "other" might be.
 
It matters because the law says it has to be there.
Age, race, ethnicity, height, weight, etc are the information used to help identify the buyer to NICS and minimize errors on the Brady check.

It's NOT a new question..........it was there before but misused by Hispanic buyers. The previous 4473 had "Hispanic" as a choice among several other "race/ethnicity". Most would select "Hispanic" but not choose a race as well. Being that a buyer could be Hispanic AND white, black or Asian, etc they were not fully answering the question.


All ATF did was reorganize the form to get a more accurate response.

Not a big deal.
Not a conspiracy.
Not racial profiling.
Not discrimination.
 
All ATF did was reorganize the form to get a more accurate response.

Not a big deal.
Not a conspiracy.
Not racial profiling.
Not discrimination.
Click to expand...

Of course there's no conspiracy ;)

But yeah guys... it's for identification. Sometimes there's more than one person with a name (try having a name of Bob with a common last name... it happens). It doesn't "matter" unless you share a name with a bank robber. Then it's helpful to have the additional identifiers.
 
Demographic and identification data that has been used on almost every type of Federal form I've seen in the past 20 years or so.
 
Question 10.a asks if someone is Hispanic or Latino or not based on their heritage, how is that helpful in any possible way when it comes to identification? If someone is born in this county then they shouldn't need to specify what their family heritage is.

Here's my problem with the question. Ethnicity is a term that represents a social group which is considered different than race. Ethnicity is based on one's culture and the people in an ethnic group are placed together based on a shared history and culture. How exactly is one supposed to identify someone? Just because someone is part of a specific ethnic group does not mean that everyone shares the same physical traits. There are hundreds of ethnic groups within the Caucasian race and hundred more within the Mongoloid race and hundreds within the Negroid race. Someone that is of Hispanic or Latino decent can look a lot like someone that is Middle Eastern, Armenian or of Spanish decent yet they would all be classified as being from the Caucasian race.

It may not be a conspiracy but I do find it a bit interesting that the specific ethnicity the 4473 wants someone to specify is whether they are Hispanic or Latino.
 
Whats next? A thumb print?

Who cares what you are, your an american first. Just more beaurocratic noseyness to keep some pols, dumber than dirt, nephew employed.
 
Of course it matters, Its the same reason county's keep polls on ethnicity of the people there, its good to know who is where and when they got there, did it bug our ancestors at ellis island when they were asked where they came from ? No , so why dont the tin foil hat party go dream up the governments next grand kill em all racist conspiracy elsewhere, its a stupid question on a form we all fill out... get over it.
 
Of course it matters.

Cant have too many pasty white guys with guns......gotta spread that stuff out.

The ATF is giving a 35% discount to non-pasties on NFA tax stamps...you know, to level the playin field.

But yeah guys... it's for identification. Sometimes there's more than one person with a name (try having a name of Bob with a common last name... it happens). It doesn't "matter" unless you share a name with a bank robber. Then it's helpful to have the additional identifiers.
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^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^
 
As the 4473 doesn't go anywhere but your gun dealer's file cabinet, there is nothing in this at all. It is simply a few more points of identification in case they ever have reason to dig up that form and try to locate the buyer of that gun.

Even if it required a thumb print, (at risk of overstating my case) so what? It's your identity as the purchaser at that point in time. It isn't registration, it isn't going in a government database. It's just another point of identification at the point of sale.
 
It is just PC stuff. People (or descendants of those) who come from "south of the border"...anywhere south, are struggling with the label. Hispanic really only means that a person's sirname is of Spanish origin or is descended from same, or is married to same. It need not even apply to ones first language or whether one even speaks the language. And of course then there's Brazil. A very South American place but not Hispanic because nobody there has any more connection to Spain than the folks who came over on the Mayflower.

In terms of culture, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Peru, Chile, and Argentina are all as different as the same number of countries in Europe or Asia...maybe more...except for the sirnames and the language.

So by that reasoning there should be an ethnicity "Anglo-Saxon" for everybody in USA, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa (indiginous people excepted). "Franco" for everybody in France, Quebec, a little bit of Louisiana. "Deutsch" for everybody in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, "Aryan" for everybody from Iran to India..."Semitic" for everybody from Morrocco to Iraq...including Israel. It would never stop.

Race then lays on top of that.

I go on and on because I'm in healthcare and we have to keep track of this stuff too because with some lab results, there are variences that correlate to primarily race but also to ethnicity as these ethnic groups, despite much mixing over the centurys, are still pockets of genetic traits that can alter some tests...for some people. In most cases, most of the normal range overlaps but the abnormal number differ.

In this case, it is either a case where (and I sure hope not) a statistic was needed vis-a-vis cartel type stuff or just a government attempt to change their paradigm on collecting this data since no one race makes up Hispanic.
 
I understand the whole idea of race being used to identify someone but that's not really my point.

The root of my question is why should your ethnicity and race matter if you are a US citizen and legally allowed to purchase a firearm? The 4473 is a confirmation of identify and you are so that NICS can identify if the person purchasing the firearm is who he or she claims to be. There is no way for NICS to verify someone's ethnicity and race over the phone other than making a judgement based on their name alone.

I find it interesting that ethnicity and race is required on the 4473 yet putting down your social security number is optional. It seems to me that if NICS is trying to confirm someone's identity having a social security number would be far more helpful then knowing someone's family heritage.

The purpose of having race and ethnicity on the 4473 is irrelevant in my view because the only person who is being asked to determine the race and ethnicity of the person buying the gun is the shop clerk who signed off on the form. If for some reason the buyer of the firearm has to be tracked down later how is the shop clerk supposed to remember if the person who bought the gun was being honest about their race and ethnicity? The only bit of information that determines the ethnicity and race of the person buying the gun is what they check off on the form and they can check off whatever they feel like since their is no positive way for the person signing off on the 4473 to confirm what the purchaser is saying is true.
 
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Sam1911 said:
As the 4473 doesn't go anywhere but your gun dealer's file cabinet, there is nothing in this at all.
Click to expand...

Unless they close up shop a year or three later, then the BATFE gets all of the 4473s, correct?

Pretty sure there are other exceptions/examples as well.
 
Shouldn't be on there. Tools of self defense support a fundamental human right.

Given results of research into the human genome, everyone should check all the boxes.
 
Unless they close up shop a year or three later, then the BATFE gets all of the 4473s, correct?
Click to expand...

Yup off to the great big filing cabinet in the sky, so to speak. Some small percentage of 4473s do end up sent in when shops go out of business.
 
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