"New" rifle: Springfield Hellion

[starling]

The fully ambidextrous design is very nice to see.

As far as aesthetics goes, I hate it. But from a practical point of view, how it looks doesn't matter. And the features make it very appealing to me.

Yeah.....Kind of has that Kel-tec Tonka Truck look to it. A milspec Keltec bullpup that works. Where as the AUG has that Art Deco thing going for it that kind of melts into your body.

 

[mgmorden]

I sure wish they could talk to more people that are interested in accuracy before setting out to build a new rifle.

This isn't really a "new" product. It's the Croatian infantry rifle that Springfield is essentially just importing a variant of. Mostly a case of "Hey, since ya'll are building these already . . . hows about slapping our name and a semi-auto trigger pack into some so that we can sell them over here in the US".

Seems bullpups command a premium, as a general rule. Why? I’ve no clue. Maybe street price will fall a bit. Usually do but who knows in this current market

Not so much bullpups but any military style rifle that isn't an AR or AK variant. You can get a working AR-15 for $400-500 due to economies of scale, but outside of that even most of Kel-tec's "black rifle" offerings are near $1k, and when you start looking at the CZ-BREN, ACR, SCAR, etc they all are up in that $1500 to $3000 range (which is admittedly a broad range).

Yeah its a hard pill to swallow when an equally capable AR can be had for peanuts, but once you have a handful of AR's if you want something different for varieties' sake that's the going rate.

 

[BigBL87]

9mm doesn't need the barrel length so would be just as well off with an SBR but it would still be really cool

Ya, unfortunately in IL can't own an SBR, tax stamp or not, so for here it would be nice.

 

[Nature Boy]

I get why some are drawn to the bullpup design.

I also know why I’m not

 

[Demi-human]

I get why some are drawn to the bullpup design.

I also know why I’m not

I want to love them. I see them and do. Then I learn about them, and there is so much more to a rifle than just shooting and moving it…

This one has a nine pound trigger.
I’d have to reach into my armpit to drop the bolt.
The safety looks to be semi or fully retarded.

When I see something like that safety lever I wonder, how did this get by so many college educated engineers, even ones from Croatia?
They must have much smaller hands on the other side of the world. Why could it not be made larger? Or at least the throw of the lever a larger arc?
The materials might take the design, but we are mostly still human shaped.

Still, it’s the small steps all added up. Maybe some day it will come together.

 

[jmorris]

I get why some are drawn to the bullpup design.

I also know why I’m not

Me too. I do think the FN2000 piles brass up at your feet nicely though.

Moving the trigger and using a transfer bar doesn’t have to equal crummy trigger, the XP-100’s have great triggers, same with some of the 50 BMG bullpup’s. The bullpup semiautos I have shot were all pretty horrible though.

 

[Demi-human]

Moving the trigger and using a transfer bar doesn’t have to equal crummy trigger, the XP-100’s had e great triggers,

This, a thousand times over! Why should adding a bar double the pull weight of a trigger? Many seem to be astounded by Keltec’s RFB’s six pounds trigger, with “only a little creep and slight over travel.”
Don’t many striker pistols have a transfer bar?
(I might not be thinking of this correctly, being a Hammerite.)

In the case of this heavy trigger being designed in, is it that the firing hand has more load on it? Moving from driving a stick hung between the shoulder and support hand, to providing more support for the weapon?

If a new soldier had only experience with this weapon, I can see some of the manipulations not being “weird”. But there’s no reason not to have a pleasant shooting platform.
(As written by a civilian wondering aloud.)

 

[jmorris]

There are lots of firearms that have quite a bit of stuff going on that still have decent triggers, it just doesn’t seem to be on the list for the folks designing these types of firearms.

The Browning Hi-Power trigger being one many folks trash that like to be able to remove take up, over travel and there is quite a bit going on inside them.



However they are way better than most of the bullpup triggers I have tried. Most of them remind me of the trigger pull these had.

 

[Nature Boy]

I loved those things. Mom hated them, for obvious reasons

 

[Hesa Hard1]

The Bullpuppy platform isn't compatible with the huge AR aftermarket.

 

[jmorris]

I loved those things. Mom hated them, for obvious reasons

What did you think of the trigger though?

 

[starling]

we used to have gunfights in the halls between classes back in middle school with those disc shooters. Good CCW under our members only jackets. They are pretty collectable now. I tried getting a few for the kids and they were very expensive on the rare occasion I could find one. Ammo/disc alone were $20+ a box.

Triggers were like a light vp70z. You could stage them though for precise shots.

 

[WrongHanded]

This one has a nine pound trigger.
.....

.....

When I see something like that safety lever I wonder, how did this get by so many college educated engineers, even ones from Croatia?
They must have much smaller hands on the other side of the world. Why could it not be made larger? Or at least the throw of the lever a larger arc?
The materials might take the design, but we are mostly still human shaped.

With a 9lb trigger, who needs a safety!

 

[jmorris]

Triggers were like a light vp70z. You could stage them though for precise shots.

Under what definition of “precise”?

Does make me wonder if something like this would allow reviewers to get better results from the bullpup rifles. Could remove a crummy trigger from the accuracy equation.

 

[starling]

Under what definition of “precise”?

indoors, no wind, undamged discs. Outdoors you had to be better at physics. BB guns were like sniper rifles when you were used to those toy disc shooters.

 

[CapnMac]

Seems bullpups command a premium, as a general rule. Why? I’ve no clue

Bullpups sell about 1:20 or 1:40 of "conventional" form rifles. So, you can only reduce production quantity so much until you run out of economy of scale. So, to recover cost and profit by it, the MSRP has to go up.
No point in making 10,000 units per year if only 500 per year sell. So, you find the smallest production volume the factory can "do" and run that off. That might be 1500 or 2000. And you will still only sell the 400 or 500 units. So, you have to be able to afford the ones sitting in the warehouse. Higher street price results. QED

Or at least the throw of the lever a larger arc?

They were, back in 2012 when these were being designed right at the beginning of the "short throw" safety fad, which has seen a lot of 45º throw AR thumb switches. So, that was the hip thing "back then" (and a little bit, "nowadays," too). The portion of the arc they selected caught my eye, too. Which makes me suspect they ran up against some European patent on which part and how much of an arc can be used. Often, when something "sticks out" like that, a current patent is involved.

 

[sarduy]

This is the ugliest gun I’ve ever seen.

they copy the VHS, copied a magpul moe handguard and a bcm grip then called keltec for the frame screws

 

[Gus Chiggins]

I tried the Keltec RDB but just didn't warm up to the bullpups. I imagine with enough training I'd develop muscle memory to be proficient with them but I didn't try hard enough.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

Looks kind of like a FAMAS.

I read through Springfield's ad copy, and it was a little strange how they didn't mention anything about solving the usual bullpup issues... bad triggers, cramped controls, etc. Usually the tech story for a new bullpup is "it features this and that" to mitigate those issues, like say the Keltec's downward ejection. Springfield just kind of gamely sent a bullpup our way and told us to accept it at face value.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I'm very interested in this after watching the videos from TFB, InRangeTV, and Forgotten Weapons. IMO a bullpup makes a lot of sense for those of us who live in urban/suburban environments, or in and around vehicles.

I don't add a bunch of stuff to my rifles, so whether or not the large AR15 aftermarket is applicable is irrelevant to me. I just want to add an optic, sling, and a light.

I have a Keltec RDB that's been good for at least 600 rounds so far. It's actually shorter than my 11.5" barreled AR15 pistol, while having a 17" barrel.

The Hellion appears to offer better access for clearing a jam should one occur, compared with the RDB. As a lefty, I appreciate that it can be fired from either shoulder without eating the brass, regardless of which way it's setup. Naturally, I reconfigure it to left side ejection, which as was shown on one of the FW videos, should take maybe 10 minutes with no additional or substitute parts.

As for the question, "What's is do that rifle X doesn't do," sometimes variety is the spice of life. If utility was the only concern, I wouldn't have things like flintlocks or a C96.

I'll wait until after the initial demand subsides and prices fall to MSRP or below, rather than the MSRP + $1,000 or more that I'm seeing on Gunbroker.

 

[CapnMac]

Looks kind of like a FAMAS.

Well, it did complete to be the replacement for the FAMAS F2 and lost out to the HK416 by only a few of hte "points" used in the composite scoring. So, some resemblance is probably apt.

My only real reluctance is that this beastie basically costs what a WWSD 2020 does. And I'm not sure that saving 6" overall is worth the trouble.
Maybe.
Perhaps.

 

[arsterling180]

I'm jumping in because I missed the era of the FAL/G3/AR70/90 and non-sporter AK imports. I only got an FNC out of it. I grab whatever new European military rifle comes over or is built here because you never know when the interest in importing it/building it will dry up.

 

[zaitcev]

Although this VHS-2 thing is quite nice, I managed to get a little disappointed. When rumors started going around that Springfield is importing a long gun, I started hoping for IMBEL MD-2 or IA2. If you remember, they used to import Brazilian FAL at some point, so this was not completely groundless. But oh well, perhaps the next time.

 

[rbernie]

My biggest complaint about bullpups in general is the weight distribution; they are so butt-heavy that they are very unwieldy to throw to the shoulder. I suppose that sort of thing is not highly relevant when prone in an improvised fighting position, but it certainly seems relevant to the self-defense market.

 

[gobsauce]

Yeah.....Kind of has that Kel-tec Tonka Truck look to it. A milspec Keltec bullpup that works. Where as the AUG has that Art Deco thing going for it that kind of melts into your body.

That word "Tonka", brings back so so many amazing memories. My grandmother ran inventory and QC for Tonka. I have so many tonka prototypes. Aww man, back when her hands worked, and stitched everything with the delicacy of an angel.. I've had the same jacket for nearly a decade, and it has so si many repairs, all done to well you'd never know it was a decade old.

Anyways..

I like the idea of bullpups, after I shot my buddy's Tavor. Being an ambidextrous shooter, I appreciate Ambi controls. But eh, bullpups have their place and their followers , and just like every firearm, will have people who also despise it. I'd love to shoot one, but own one? Not so much just yet.