"New" rifle: Springfield Hellion
- Thread starter JeeperCreeper
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skfullen
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I had a Tavor. Didn't work for me.
Capybara
Member
I'm really interested in the Hellion and the Tavor X-95. I won't buy either though until I can at least handle one in real life. I take your experiences
to heart Dustbowl and Skfullen.
I just bought the new Smith & Wesson M&P 12 Bullpump shotgun so that will be my first bullpup exposure. I have a 1301 Tactical
as my HD shotgun so the Smith is more of a fun mechanical and design oddity for me to have fun at the range with. I have plenty of ARs
so the Hellion and or Tavor would be the same, a fun gun to shoot at the range.
Just waiting for my local dealers to get one or both into stock so I can get hands on with it.
to heart Dustbowl and Skfullen.
I just bought the new Smith & Wesson M&P 12 Bullpump shotgun so that will be my first bullpup exposure. I have a 1301 Tactical
as my HD shotgun so the Smith is more of a fun mechanical and design oddity for me to have fun at the range with. I have plenty of ARs
so the Hellion and or Tavor would be the same, a fun gun to shoot at the range.
Just waiting for my local dealers to get one or both into stock so I can get hands on with it.
Poper
Member
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Poper
Member
Yeah!!! "You could shoot your brother's eye out with that thing!"
I loved those things. Mom hated them, for obvious reasons
That's exactly what my mom told me and my brother, back in the day. (Circa 1968, IIRC.)
BreechFace
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Meh, bullpup. Not a fan.
The only bullpup I would consider is a shotgun (be it pump - Keltec KSG or semi - Meridian Arms) where the magazine is in the traditional tube mag location.
But nice for fans of them, another option is always good.
The only bullpup I would consider is a shotgun (be it pump - Keltec KSG or semi - Meridian Arms) where the magazine is in the traditional tube mag location.
But nice for fans of them, another option is always good.
Capybara
Member
Anyone actually get some trigger time on or buy a Hellion since this last post to this thread was in early March?
They are very available on Gunbroker now, several even for MSRP but not the $1,700-$1,800 range. Yet.
David Fortier, an editor for Firearm News, did some testing for their cover story review last issue and he was able
to achieve sub MOA groups at 100 yards with Black Hills and Speer .223. Impressive for a "Battle" rifle. I'm still pretty intrigued
by the Hellion, it has a lot of interesting features, lacks a few common sense ones (no bolt release button?!?) but overall,
I am interested.
They are very available on Gunbroker now, several even for MSRP but not the $1,700-$1,800 range. Yet.
David Fortier, an editor for Firearm News, did some testing for their cover story review last issue and he was able
to achieve sub MOA groups at 100 yards with Black Hills and Speer .223. Impressive for a "Battle" rifle. I'm still pretty intrigued
by the Hellion, it has a lot of interesting features, lacks a few common sense ones (no bolt release button?!?) but overall,
I am interested.
David Hoback
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Oh joy! Another ugly, Bull-pup replacement for the AR15 because people still believe a 16” barreled AR is somehow Too Long? Uhh, ok. And with the incredible savings in length comes absolutely NO WEIGHT savings! Weighing in at 8lbs, it’s like carrying a full size AK47 around! Not to mention, while people complain incessantly about triggers, somehow they just don’t care about the awful feel that a Bull-Pup trigger musters. With a long trigger bar and excess parts adding to inconsistent pull weight, and mushy, grittiness to boot. But it’s ok… because you will no longer trip over the barrel, right? I mean because that has always been a big problem, right? LOL!
I’m sorry. Just having a go. I’ve just never been a fan of Bull pup design. From the first time I saw the Steyr AUG in Die Hard, as a kid I immediately thought, “what an UGLY rifle!”. And they just are. But for those who like them, by all means. Go mashugana!
I’m sorry. Just having a go. I’ve just never been a fan of Bull pup design. From the first time I saw the Steyr AUG in Die Hard, as a kid I immediately thought, “what an UGLY rifle!”. And they just are. But for those who like them, by all means. Go mashugana!
js8588
Member
Reviews so far seem to indicate these are (despite the trigger) accurate and durable. If/when Geissele or Timney come out with a trigger pack that brings the pull down to 4-6lbs, I'll likely be a buyer. Just can't bring myself to own something where I'm stuck with a 9-12lb trigger weight. Really want me to get one? Import a batch with the 19 inch barrel of the military version.
Capybara
Member
So I get it, you love bullpups! No need to beat a dead horse!
Aesthetics are debatable. To me, Glocks are as visually appealing as a 2x4 but they do the job and are a known commodity. I have a G17, no need to buy more of them and yes, it's an ugly but functional piece of plastic.
Beauty is in the eye of...I find that the various bullpups have interesting looks and especially designs. If you were a firearms designer and was given the assignment, "Full length barrel in the shortest possible OAL for getting in and out of vehicles and tight CQB", not manyother ways it could be accomplished. I find it interesting how the various designers actually customized everything on a bullpup, the stock, the action, magwell, etc. they definitely have more personality than an AR or AK platform rifle. IMHO, once you are familiar with the AR and AK plaforms, all of the rifles that fit into those platforms are basically variations on identical, that's what makes it a platform. How different is a $450 PSA home build AR from a Daniels Defense functionally?
Bullpups are all different, which for many of us make them a bit more interesting.
On a related note though, my HD weapon of choice is a 12ga. I have the Beretta 1301 Tactical. It's OAL is 37.8" I live in a three story townhome. My entire house is super narrow, tall and steep staircases and narrow hallways. The longest engagement distance I could ever face inside my home is probably 15' but I would likely engage in a narrow hallway or stairway. I recently bought the new Smith & Wesson M&P12 Bullpup shotgun. It's OAL is 27.8" a full 10" shorter than the Beretta. The short OAL makes a big difference in my situation in my home. If I had a large home with wide open spaces, it wouldn't. I've practiced drills in my home with likely scenarios and the shorter than most SBS OAL on the M&P 12 is demonstrably better for maneuvering and not leading into a room with the barrel of the shotgun that can be grabbed and possibly wrestled away from me. Really not much to grab on the M&P 12. In my case, a bullpup shotgun makes perfect sense.
Triggers? Yes, my ARs and even AK with the Tapco G2 will be superior. With the popularity of the Hellion, someone will be making a better trigger for it, just like they have for the Tavor X95. I have several ARs, an AR pistol, shotguns, plenty of handguns. I don't intend to replace my ARs with the Tavor or the Hellion. ARs are boringly predictable (that's part of what makes them great) and a genius-designed platform, it would still be my gun of choice for any real life, non range situation and I obviously still enjoy shooting my ARs at the range. The bullpups to me, are a fascinating design exercise and I will likely acquire both the Tavor X95 and the Hellion because, why not? Guns get pretty boring if all you do is own and shoot the same old thing. If you saw my collection, I would definitely call it esoteric because variety is the spice of life. I don't think bullpups are operationally as good as the AR or AK, but that doesn't make them any less fun to own or shoot.
I have had some guns that I regretted. A semi auto Uzi was one. It was REALLY heavy (wood stocked model) that weighed in at over 11lbs. It shot the anemic 9mm (in a rifle) cartridge which for outdoor fun on a 100 yard range was incredibly boring to shoot. It had the absolute worst trigger I have ever encountered on any firearm. Even after a $300 trigger job, it was still horrendous. I always wanted an Uzi, I had shot plenty of FA Uzis so I bought one. It was a terrible gun in the configuration I had to own it in (non collapsing shoulder stock, 16" barrel, grip fin, etc.) Great gun as a 10" barrel SMG, a ton of fun to shoot, but awful, horrible gun as a PCC plinker. Even with all of that, I don't regret buying it because I was always curious what it would be like to own my own Uzi. I'm glad I did. Unlike a lot of gun owners, I tend to want to explore and try/own different firearms, calibers, designs, ages and types of firearms, that's what makes gun ownership interesting to me. Maybe I'lll regret buying the Tavor and Hellion. But I can always sell them if I hate them, probably for not even much of a loss. At least then I'll know what I would have missed.
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Mosin77
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If this was $900 I’d be absolutely willing to give it a go, but at double or more, no thanks. It’s ugly (but all bullpups are) and has a cool pedigree, but really that’s about it. I’m glad they’re being imported and I hope they sell well. Any new, modern, semi-auto platform is a win. But that’s a lot of cash for something that won’t be a noticeable improvement over an AR.
I don’t have a purpose for it. But just because I can’t see it as a better target, hunting, or defensive rifle doesn’t mean someone else may not be smitten.
I don’t have a purpose for it. But just because I can’t see it as a better target, hunting, or defensive rifle doesn’t mean someone else may not be smitten.
David Hoback
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Capybara: I agree with about everything you said. As for collecting & trying different platforms, sure…I get it. I’ve already been there, done that. I was in a position that I came into contact with thousands of different firearms. So, not much new under the sun for be. But I agree with you. If you have an integer, just gotta scratch it! No way can you rely on the words of another! I surely couldn’t! Nope..had to try everything myself! LOL! That’s what I threw in the aside, just a Go; As in having fun.
Capybara
Member
No worries man, I appreciate a spirited discussion, all good.
Capybara
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A lot of people feel the same way. Bullpups are definitely for someone like me who likes "weird" looking guns. I have the Astra 600, a Spanish/Nazi pistol called "The Pipe Wrench",
it's a pretty bizarre, funky looking pistol that is very cylindrical looking. I just bought the CZ52, a post war Czech pistol that looks as if it was designed by Citroen or Peugot, it has a cool, retro 50's Euro aesthetic to it.
Functionally, I dig my ARs and my AK. But looks-wise, they're pretty boring to me. I find the lines of the Tavor and Hellion to look futuristic and a bit weird, which is appealing to me as they try to solve an engineering challenge that normal rifles never could, full length 16" + barrel in a sub 30" package. I recall being a kid when the Steyr AUG debuted in 1978 and seeing footage of it on the news and thinking, "There is no way that's a real rifle, it's so bizarre looking." Once I found out it was real, always thought it would be interesting to own one, although I haven't yet. None of these replace my ARs or AK, they are just a fun diversion for the range and just appreciating the design.
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Well, I’m a fan of bull pups. They have some downsides but they don’t bother me. I have a Keltec RDB and a Turkish shotgun. Both are very easy to maneuver, which (to me) offsets the weight issues. And the Keltec is very accurate, which works for me.
That said, already having the RDB I don’t plan on getting a Hellion. I can spend that $2,000 on something else.
That said, already having the RDB I don’t plan on getting a Hellion. I can spend that $2,000 on something else.
Capybara
Member
I think the answer to your question is debatable. Several posters on some other forums I am on where the Hellion was being talked about raved about how much they love their KelTec RDBs. But equally, I have other friends who have owned KelTecs who hate them, sold them and will never buy another KelTec product. I've handled the KSG and KS7, they actually felt pretty well built and solid but that's different than shooting them and owning them so I don't know if they play in the same space? Most of the GunTubers who have had hands on with the Hellion have remarked that the build is very good, solid and appears to be well engineered.
The Hellion and the Tavor X95 both have a considerable pedigree on the battlefield in several conflicts and reports from soldiers using both generally seem pretty favorable. As I read in the last Firearms News from Michelle Hamilton's comments about the Hellion, I too appreciate that Springfield and H.S. Produkt have brought a genuine, new battle tested rifle to American consumers, that in itself is impressive, just as IWI did with the Tavor X95. This is one big factor other bullpups cannot claim, not the DesertTech, not the KelTec, although of course the AUG is very battle tested. In the end, bullpups bring out my natural curiosity. Owning a decent amount of ARs, I have never seen a new AR rifle and wondered what it would be like to shoot, I know almost exactly what it would feel like to shoot, cycle, disassemble, assemble, clean. It's an AR. Predictably boring, not that that's a bad thing. The ambi charging handle on the Hellion is interesting. The AR-like mag release location on the Tavor, the sliding forward handguards, the Tavort's side charging handle also seem interesting to me in comparison to an AR.
Capybara
Member
I hear you. $2k isn't exactly inexpensive. Lately I've been more tempted by the Tavor because there is a seller on GB where I can get a California Compliant Tavor X95 for $1,799, which still isn't inexpensive but the two California vendors that are going to be getting the Hellions to make compliant for this state's ridiculous and stupid gun laws are at $2,119 and $2,139, respectively. I may or may not wait until the Hellion prices drop down to where the Tavor is.
How do you like the RDB overall? How has it's reliability been for you? Anything break or malfunction? Has it required a trip back to KelTec?
My RDB has been fine…but there are reports of gassing issues. Usually they seem to be worked out with adjustments. I like the fit, form, and function.
I’ve never held a Tavor, but the looks kill me. I understand there are replacement handgrips available - which might make it tolerable.
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