New to reloading; Question on primers

[SG1]

Hey all you fine folks at THR! I'm new to reloading as of this month. So far I've only loaded .38 special cowboy loads at low velocities using Trailboss, but so far everything has worked out great!

Last night I picked up a box of Berry's 125gr .357 (.38 cal) target HPs and some W231 powder. I have some .357 mag cases laying around (also picked up 100 new brass for .357) that I want to load.

Everything I've read says that Berry's plated bullets should be loaded using data for lead. I'm not looking to load any barn burners, just some nice mid-level target loads in .357 for range plinking.

So I found some good load data on Hodgdon's website for 125gr LRNFP .357 magnum, with max velocities around 1185fps (per the load data) using W231. However, the data says they used WSPM (small pistol magnum) primers. I've also seen posts by people saying they've used this load with regular small pistol primers.

I do not have any SPM primers on hand, but have plenty of WSP. Since I'm not pushing magnum velocities and W231 powder seems to perform fine without using magnum primers, is it ok to use regular small pistol primers or should I stick to the magnum primers listed in the load data?

Sorry if this has been answered repeatedly. I've read and learned a ton from using the search function, but I can't seem to find an answer to this particular question. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[adcoch1]

Some powders are harder to set off or totally burn, that isn't an issue for mid range 357 loads and 231 powder. The WSP primers you have should be fine.

 

[Starter52]

Agree. Use the standard primers. No problem.

 

[RandyP]

I would rarely suggest deviating from published load info, but mild-midrange 38 special level loads in a 357 case with Win231/HP-38 should not pose any real problems.

If you ever want to load .357 force ammo? Get the components that match the published data.

 

[Rule3]

Berrys does not say to use only lead data.

Hodgdon Powder used a Mag Primer for every load that is labeled Magnum (for consistency) You do not need a Mag primer for HP38/W231.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ5


Question: Do you have load data available? COL or OAL?


Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)

-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.

-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.

For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Here are websites with load data information,

https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-contentuploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_1-23-14.pdf

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx

 

[Jack B.]

Standard primers no problem. Look at the Hodgdon 38 Special data. Since that is basically what you are loading.

 

[Riccochet]

Berry's suggestion of using any published data as long as the projectile is the same weight is a bit misleading, and in some cases down right dangerous. Their plated hollow base projectiles are considerably longer than FMJ of the same weight. If you were to follow the COL of a FMJ you'll be seating the Berry's hollow base a good bit more inside the case resulting in higher pressure.

 

[rfwobbly]

• Your question about powder loads for Berry Mfg bullets is answered on their FAQ page.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq

• Easier and cheaper to load/shoot using 38 Special brass if all you want is target grade ammo. I think you'll get more consistent accuracy too due to the more consistent powder burn.

• The problem with the 125gn Berry is that there is no crimp groove. So you'll need to buy the optional Lee Taper Crimp Die for 38/357, and start applying a Taper Crimp. If you want to Roll Crimp as per standard 38/357 practice, then you need to buy the Berry 148gn Hollow Base or DE Wad Cutter. These insert all the way into the case (flush with the case mouth), and the Roll Crimp closes the case mouth around the meplat of the bullet. Again, the smaller internal case volume will mean more consistent ignition. See below...

 

[labnoti]

You can roll crimp Berry's plated bullets even if they don't have a crimp groove or cannelure. The case will just press its own groove into the soft bullet. I find that I do not need to crimp it that hard though. A very light crimp is sufficient unless you're shooting hot .357 in a Scandium J frame or LCR where you'll see crimp jump. Plated bullets are usually favored for more routine uses though. Do try different bullet types, but those 125 gr plated target HP's are good for what you're doing. I loaded and shot thousands of them. I regularly use the 158 gr. version now, which also has no crimp groove.

I almost never use SPM primers with .357 Magnum. I have only seen one situation where I believe the magnum primer was needed -- compressed loads of IMR 4227. I get good results with SP primers on H110, Lil Gun, Longshot, and certainly with the easy-to-ignite powders like HP-38/W231. Do follow the book, but it's good to question why and seek out the answers. You'll have to come to your own decisions about how much you deviate and why. There are plenty of unpublished loads that are sane, and if you're not pursuing hot rod loads or being a cheapskate, it doesn't take too much genius to realize some of them.

 

[Rule3]

Berry's suggestion of using any published data as long as the projectile is the same weight is a bit misleading, and in some cases down right dangerous. Their plated hollow base projectiles are considerably longer than FMJ of the same weight. If you were to follow the COL of a FMJ you'll be seating the Berry's hollow base a good bit more inside the case resulting in higher pressure.

Not really because they say use PUBLISHED DATA if that data is not for a Hollow Base you are using the wrong data.

Kinda like saying if you load the bullet upside down (even though it is the same weight).

 

[SG1]

I appreciate the responses folks. I guess I misspoke about the load data being lead only loads. I read the FAQ on Berry's website last night. All the data I've looked at so far from a few sources show 125gr jacketed rounds at peak Berry's velocities in the minimum loads, and cast 125gr loads more in line with topping out around 1150fps or so (generalizing, I dont have the data in front of me at the moment).

There's so much to learn and I'm taking it slow. I knew the bullets were plated instead of jacketed but had no idea they didn't have a cannellure until I got home and opened the box. I was puzzled and have read a lot on the subject. What I've read echoes what you guys have said already about crimping with either a light roll crimp or taper crimp. I dont have any 9mm dies so I'm going to try a light roll crimp.

 

[Riccochet]

Not really because they say use PUBLISHED DATA if that data is not for a Hollow Base you are using the wrong data.

Kinda like saying if you load the bullet upside down (even though it is the same weight).

This is right off their site for 115gr plated hollow base 9mm projectiles.

The bullet profile is longer but the weight remains the same and you can load these bullets using

any published load data for a jacketed bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet.

Many people would interpret that as meaning I can use, for instance, load data for a Sierra 115gr Tournament Master FMJ. It's a much shorter profile. I suppose the hollow base can account for the extra set back if seating a Sierra and Berry's to the same COL.

I've always seated my Berry's hollow base bullets a bit longer. Western Powders load data shows it pretty good. They suggest a 1.100" COL for the Sierra FMJ and 1.130" for the Berry's.

 

[coondogger]

Everything I've read says that Berry's plated bullets should be loaded using data for lead.

From the manufacturer (in response to a question I sent them):

You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)

-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.

-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Here are websites with load data information,

https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-contentuploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_1-23-14.pdf

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx

 

[Rule3]

This is right off their site for 115gr plated hollow base 9mm projectiles.



Many people would interpret that as meaning I can use, for instance, load data for a Sierra 115gr Tournament Master FMJ. It's a much shorter profile. I suppose the hollow base can account for the extra set back if seating a Sierra and Berry's to the same COL.

I've always seated my Berry's hollow base bullets a bit longer. Western Powders load data shows it pretty good. They suggest a 1.100" COL for the Sierra FMJ and 1.130" for the Berry's.

What about to the extra volume that is in the Hollow Base?

Regardless the main question is that Plated bullets can be loaded for lead, FMJ data it makes no real difference the composition as long as velocities are not exceed, Just like lead bullets can be loaded to FMJ data, Yes it's true, the velocity may increase some, Not getting into leading hardness and all the other Minutiae.

 

[Mark NM]

An additional consideration new reloaders need to be very aware of with plated versus other bullets is overall length, since there is no cannelure or crimp groove as a guide. Seating depth of course can dramatically affect pressure.

Best all, Mark

 

[Jack B.]

You can buy X-treme plated bullets that have a cannelure marking on them that you can use as a seating depth guide. Plus they don't have a hollow base like some of Berry's do. I use them all the time for plinking and practice loads in 38Special.

https://www.xtremebullets.com/38-125-FP-p/xc38-125fpcan-b0500.htm

 

[ATLDave]

What about to the extra volume that is in the Hollow Base?

Sometimes there is no extra volume. Say you have two round-nosed bullets of the same weight and materials (plated lead, for instance). One has a hollow base, one does not. If they are seated to the same depth, does the hollow base have more internal volume left in the case? No. It has slightly changed the shape of the internal volume - but the volume remains the same. Whatever volume is gained in the hollow center is lost because the bullet's sides now reach further down into the case.

The hollow base bullet will generally have a slightly greater bearing surface, and that may raise pressures (by raising friction with the barrel), but it's not changing the volume if the weight, nose profile, and overall cartridge length are kept the same.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

You can buy X-treme plated bullets that have a cannelure marking on them that you can use as a seating depth guide. Plus they don't have a hollow base like some of Berry's do. I use them all the time for plinking and practice loads in 38Special.

https://www.xtremebullets.com/38-125-FP-p/xc38-125fpcan-b0500.htm

That is what I've been using also specifically because they are consistent and have a cannelure . I will only use Berry's for auto pistol cartridges that use a taper crimp.

I plan to order RMR 158 gr bullets, once they are relisted on their website, and I believe they state 1400 fps max velocity. I don't see myself pushing a 357 faster than that, unless out of my Henry.

 

[Rule3]

Yep, but Hodgdon loads a Berrys 124 gr HBRN TP at 1.150 so round and round we go. WESTERN uses 1.060 for the same darn bullet.

Plus the OP is asking about a 357 mag load and not even these 9mm bullets

It all depends on what data you want to go with.
Off on a tangent about HB bullets.

"May the Odds be Forever in your Favor"

 

[SG1]

Specifically, I was asking about small pistol magnum primers versus regular SP using .357 mag load data with a 125gr plated bullet. I think I'll go with the load data from Hodgdon's website for 125gr LRNFP .357 magnum using W231 and SP primers. Right now I'm in a batch of about 200 .45 colt loads, so once I finish those I'm going to try these.

Thanks again for all the information and responses! I enjoy reading all the different experiences and opinions on the subject. I'm soaking it up like a sponge!

 

[Toprudder]

Some powders should use magnum primers, most don't need it. W231 only needs regular primers. H110, on the other hand, should use magnum primers.

The only thing I will add is about crimping plated bullets in 357mag cases. Get a Lee collet crimper. It will form its own crimp groove without damaging the plating, in my experience. Lee makes it for the magnum calibers (357, 44, 460, etc). It also does not have the carbide resizing ring of the FCD that some people have grown to hate.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/240550/lee-collet-style-crimp-die

 

[mdi]

Sounds like perhaps the OP is a newer reloader. If so, one big hint until more experience is gained; Find a load (bullet, powder, primer) in your reloading manual before you buy any components. Stick with what your manual recommends and you'll have many fewer headaches that way and no waiting for a forum answer or incompatible components. When one asks a question like this most of the time the answers drift into advanced reloading techniques and theory, often confusing to the newer reloader and not really necessary to help him get reloading good, safe ammo...

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...

 

[Rule3]

Specifically, I was asking about small pistol magnum primers versus regular SP using .357 mag load data with a 125gr plated bullet. I think I'll go with the load data from Hodgdon's website for 125gr LRNFP .357 magnum using W231 and SP primers. Right now I'm in a batch of about 200 .45 colt loads, so once I finish those I'm going to try these.

Thanks again for all the information and responses! I enjoy reading all the different experiences and opinions on the subject. I'm soaking it up like a sponge!

They will be mouse fart loads (not that there is anything wrong with that to start with) But note that they tested in a 10" test barrel and did use a Mag primer. So you are changing two things in the "recipe" You will not get the pressure or velocity that they show.

No you do not need a Mag primer with HP 38/W231. Been using that powder for many calibers for many years.

Just a note if you are going to use the start load data for a lead bullet, only load 12 or so. To see how the work.