new twist on the wilderness/bear gun debate...

[waterhouse]

While I can't give any advice on what gun to carry, try and convince her just how scary fast bears are. I had one charge me once, thankfully while I was in a car (and unfortunately while the window was down). The distance it covered in very little time was amazing. If I had a gun in a holster I highly doubt I would have had time to react to the charge and draw. So I would opt for some option that is at the ready, i.e. in hand, and try to be very aware of my surroundings.

 

[Biker]

I worked at our local zoo for awhile and witnessed a fat, out of shape grizzly cross 40 feet in less than a second on numerous occasions. Scary fast they are.

Biker

 

[Tokugawa]

Some thoughts- situational awareness is more important then a firearm- be aware of cover, terrain, and especially WIND direction. Don't walk into trouble.
Walking upwind in thick brush along a stream in salmon season is a dubious practice even if you have a A-10 on station.
A gun needs to be easy to carry. Slim sides like a pump shotgun or lever rifle fits the hand better.
Caliber is important but bullet construction is just as important- for example, the soft lead foster hollow base slugs for a shotgun do not penetrate well- they are meant for deer. Use a hard cast slug like a Brennnke. Same thing in a rifle, use a hard slug that won't break up.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Get her out there and get her practicing with something she can physically handle and be accurate with. That's the most important part.

As far as caliber recommendation...when you're staring at something that has the clear intent to eat you, nothing, I mean NOTHING in your hands will appear large enough.

 

[22-rimfire]

I'd suggest a Remington Model 870 in 12 ga with 18 or 20" barrel regardless of if she's comfortable with the recoil. She won't feel a thing in an emergency. Composite stocks and stainless steel will reduce the amount of care on a daily basis. Put a sling on it. Have her practice pulling the shotgun off her shoulder quickly. She won't shoot it much I suspect, but it will be there if she needs it and can get to the gun in an emergency. Hopefully, she will be carrying it.

Another option is one of the Marlin guide guns in a large thumping caliber, but I lean toward a shotgun.

(Added) If she is truly recoil sensitive and will not carry a 12 ga, I'd go with a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag and load it with the hottest solids you can find. The gun would not be bad for close quarters defensive uses and should discourage most bears.

 

[gmhamilton3]

I have been looking at getting one of these myself, Model 870 Express Deer. My choice is the 12 ga IC version which can shoot both (1oz) 437 gr. rifled slugs as well as 3" 00 buck. In a 1oz Rem slug the MV=1760 calculates into ME=3005, in a (1.25 oz) 546 gr. Fed slug the MV=1600 calcuates in ME=3103.
Internet price is $297 which is very reasonable.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_deer.asp
As for your sister I would recommend the same gun, have it cut down to fit or look at the 20 ga in the youth model. The youth is a rifled barrel and probably will not shoot buck shot but with a (5/8oz) 273 gr. sabot the MV=1500 calculates in ME=1364. This compares favorably to the best .44 mag which has a ME=1050

 

[geekWithA.45]

Well, 44 mag is considered the classic bear country handgun.

I suspect it'd serve its purpose in a lever carbine, with a nice recoil pad on it.

At 6.5 lbs, it's hard to beat for something that needs to be kept near-to-hand.

 

[ChopperKen]

I have a 336-44 mag Marlin,
Hotload some solids up, and have 11 rounds on tap...
My 11 year old 80# nephew shoots it with no problem.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been around the bruins up here, thankfully never *too* close to the brown ones. My take on it is this:

--She is not too small to use a 12 ga to shoot skeet, but she is probably too small to use a slug gun loaded with Brenneke hardcasts. The recoil from a slug gun is quite intense even for a full grown man, and if your rounds aren't recoiling much they're probably not powerful enough for bear. Don't even think about using buckshot on a brown or polar bear in DLP, it's like shooting the bear multiple times with a .32 ACP firing roundball. The recoil will be very bad in a pinch and contrary to the myths she WILL feel it and it WILL effect her shooting. The mental effects of having a firearm that hurts you are MAGNIFIED in times of crisis, not minimized. This is easy to test by simply doing some jogging, pushups and getting your heart rate up then grabbing the big iron that scares you and seeing how well you're shooting with it. Plus you won't have ear protection which means the slug gun or cut down big bore levergun will be damaging your ears as well as your shoulder. For a woman less than half my size I think that's madness.

--The big boomer leverguns will also probably have too much recoil, at least when loaded with the proper medicine. You can have her try a .35 Remington levergun with 200 grain slugs. Historically these were fine bear medicine and brought home some enormous brown bear. Judge Folta, the bear killing judge, used the .35 in an old automatic for many decades. Also consider a Winchester 92 clone in .44 magnum. I've found recoil to be mild but it hits hard esp. out of a long rifle. The caveat is not all of the 92's and other .44 mag leverguns will cycle the max OAL FN hardcasts, so you may have to make adjustments.

--She should consider getting a bolt action rifle with iron sights, and will need to get some hands-on training and sizing to see what's going to fit her extra small frame. I believe she would be able to handle a properly balanced bolt action rifle in the .30'06 class. Firing heavy bullets that should be sufficient. If she can manage more recoil, consider moving up to light magnums. I very much doubt she'll be comfortable with .338 WM but she can at least try it.

--Whatever she ends up with, she has to have some basic training with it and she has to be as comfortable as possible with it. This consideration trumps all others! A rifle she's scared of and uncomfortable with is dead weight on the trail and useless against a charging bear. She'll flinch, hestitate or pull off. So if she's most comfortable with a .35 Rem. levergun and hates the bolt actions, go for that.

 

[Cosmoline]

My son weighs less than she does and he can shoot full power loads all day long.

What do you mean "full power loads"? A full power standard buckshot load is A VERY FAR CRY from bear medicine. The magnum brenneke hardcasts that generate upwards of 3,000 ft. lbs. at the muzzle will knock *ME* back a bit even with a recoil reducer. They're almost twice as powerful as a standard buckshot load. That is 12 ga bear medicine, and I doubt one shotgunner in ten has ever even experienced such rounds.

 

[gmhamilton3]

After reading the threads it apprears that the questions is two fold. What is the best gun for a person the size of a 12 years old boy needs in order to defend himself against a 1000 lb brown bear. At 200 lbs I have a good idea what I would use, which doeas not answer the specific question. I do believe that Muzzle Energy from whatever gun must be adequate and in addition the recoil must be tolerable. I do think a ME>2000m ft.lbs is the minimum. If you take the Muzzle Energy/Recoil Energy than you might find the best trade off. The 308 in 180 gr. has a ME= 2750 and a RE=17.5 (2750/17.5=157) ,the 30-06 in 180 gr. has a ME= 2950 and a RE=20.5 (2950/20.3=143). A 12 ga using a 1.25 oz slug @ MV=1330 has an ME= 2144 and a RE=32 (2144/32=67). It looks like the 308 may be the best bet for her in power vs recoil.

 

[Tokugawa]

Cosmo is right about the recoil of Brenneke slugs- I have had my glasses cut my face from having the comb hit me, shooting from a bench. A set of high sights would help, I think, to keep the head up. cheek weld may be fine for target loads but on a heavy recoiling weapon maybe not.
XD is right too- no gun seems big enough when an upset bear is tearing around.....!

 

[Dope]

I second the Knoxx specops recoil-reducing stock on an 870/590. It makes a big, big difference. Add a pad to the end of it if you have to. It's nice because it's also got an adjustable LOP and that could be useful for such a small woman. A normal full-length stock is probably too long.

Try it out.

Dope

 

[RNB65]

A couple of people have mentioned this, but it needs emphasizing. When wild animal attacks occur, they typically occur REALLY, REALLY FAST! Blazingly fast. Mountain lions are usually on you before you even know they were there. Grizzlies can run at speeds of 30+ MPH for an amazingly long distance. The fastest sprinter in the world will be run down by a grizz in a matter of seconds.

You must be able to deploy any weapon you carry in an instant to have a chance to defend yourself against wild animal attack. That means practice, practice, practice. You must be intimately familiar with the weapon. If you have to fumble for a few seconds to disengage a safety or to get a good grip, you're probably going to be the main course.

 

[Mainsail]

What do you mean "full power loads"? A full power standard buckshot load is A VERY FAR CRY from bear medicine. The magnum brenneke hardcasts that generate upwards of 3,000 ft. lbs. at the muzzle will knock *ME* back a bit even with a recoil reducer. They're almost twice as powerful as a standard buckshot load. That is 12 ga bear medicine, and I doubt one shotgunner in ten has ever even experienced such rounds.

By full power I mean ‘not reduced power’ loads. Someone suggested using reduced recoil loads, which kind of defeats the purpose. So I’m speaking about 2¾” standard shells in either buckshot or slug.

BTW, he wasn’t too crazy about the 3” magnum shell I slipped in there.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well have her try them and see. I just know these buggers leave my frame with bruises:

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

I'd tell her to carry some bear spray as a primary self defense.

one of those giant cans that you strap across your chest, you know?

I think this is going to severely limit your responses.

I've been fairly face to face with a huge brown bear in CO, but I'm far from being any kind of expert, hahahah.

I'd also suggest a levergun, though; seems like a marlin would be a good bet.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894Centerfire/1894.aspx

A .44 marlin with full house loads would hurt most nasty critters.

Academy usually has a few Marlins on hand at very reasonable prices.

 

[Furncliff]

For her frame size, check out the Marlin 336Y. Scaled down version of the 336. It is 34-in. long, 16-in. barrel and only 6 1/2 lbs. These guns are slender, easy to carry and sling well.. If a gun is unwieldy heavy and a pain to carry it could easily be somewhere else.... when you need it most. I know it's only a 30-30, but Buffalo Bore is coming out with a boosted load.

I hope the skeeters and black flies are the only wildlife problems she encounters

 

[Wolfgang2000]

The first thing is to figure out what she can handle effectively. The first thing is to fit the gun to her. If you give her a rifle or a shotgun sized for a average sized man, she will be over extended and perceived recoil will be worst. Then find the larges caliber / gage she can handle. I found the Marlin 44 rifle's recoil a little stiff, but it was manageable. I found the Marlin 444 mag recoil "felt" less than the 44 mag. The 45-70 was in the same ball park as the 44 mag. Another option is the 41 mag Marlin.

A semi auto will have less perceived recoil. I took a BAR 308 had the stock and BBL trimmed to fit my wife. She likes it and handles it well. Whatever route you take, because of her size expect to spend more.

Then y'all will have to figure out how much SHE can or will handle. I've seen little bitty women handle BIG calibers guns. And I've see big women refused to shoot anything bigger than a 22. If she can't handle a decent caliber firearm the money might be better spent on a good pair of running shoes instead of wasting it on a mouse gun that isn't up to the task.

Again I like other ask you to use caution. If she doesn't have a lot of dealing with firearms, you have to opportunity to make a firearm enthusiast or a gun hater.

 

[TX1911fan]

get her a 12 ga semi auto. She can practice shooting just about anything, because when something is coming to eat her, she won't feel the recoil. Her adrenaline will be pumping. A semi auto allows her to just keep shooting, no worries about pumping. Just make sure she knows how to clean and lube it, and that she does so. No sense having a gun that won't work.

 

[CajunTim]

if u havent come face to face with something that wants to eat you, stay out of it.

I qualify but it had been alligators on many occasions.

Anyways, I assume she wont be alone and hopefully she will have someone with her shooting a .700 Nitro Express or something similar.

Get her a Beretta Extrema 2 with the KO system are whatever it is called. Have her pull the plug on that baby and load it all the way up. SHe wont be hunting so it should be perfectly legal and if not who cares if it saves her life.

No ARs huh. I heard Armalite was coming out with a .338 that soundsdecent for this scenario. You mentioned a SKS you will want something alot more than the x39

Just my thoughts tell her to cary tear gas they have eye-balls to.

 

[bcp]

my little sister is planning to get a job in the oilfeild/environmental testing feild, and one of the requirements is a firearms license, which means she will be carrying a gun for "wilderness protection".

She may be issued a company-owned gun and have no choice. You should find out, and if "yes," what it is.

Bruce

 

[roscoe]

Compact .44 or .45 lever gun, like a Winchester Trapper, Marlin 1894, or Puma 1892, preferably with a 16" barrel. Buy the Buffalo Bore or DoubleTap heavy hardcast loads - they penetrate as well as anything will. Put a big fat recoil pad on the rifle, and a sling so she can carry it hands free.

Have her practice plenty with whatever she gets.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Marlin 1895 firing .45-70s with a good recoil pad on it. And if you can find a decent smith, get a brake put on the end.

Recoil management is as much proper form as it is the equipment you are using. Even small women can handle the 12ga or .45-70 if they do it right.

 

[A2lockdown]

thanks all for the responses.

as far as the "if u havent come face to face..." comment, theory is far different from reality. ive been charged by both a black bear and coyote (bear stopped across the stream - no shots, coyote realized what 308 180gr means, a little to late) both times i had a 308 lever ive been using my whole life and i was still amazed how fast those animals can move. practice/shot placement is a given, believe me she WILL be shooting a lot in a short time.


im looking at getting a new 12, so ill let her shoot it and go from there. saying the word 'practice' with the word 'brenneke' makes me flinch, let alone someone half my size. reduced recoil seems to be defeating the purpose, dont think it would penetrate enough to break frontal bones. i like the idea of a 308 semiauto but ar's are range only up here.

so up to this point:
1. critters with teeth tend to be fast. solution = short
semiauto /pump
2. hard cast slugs/ premium bullets
3. dont care if/what she gets issued, she will get something she can use. and i aint about to be argued with on that one.
4. just watched the knoxx video. WOW.

so after considering everything, 870 TAC2 w/knoxx stock (for me, mabey for her), or BAR shorttrac stalker 308 with holosight. seems like the best of everything.

thanks guys!