NSSF warns of threat to ammunition availability, calls for action

[Boba Fett]

I am not hoarding, I am merely readjusting my current supply to meet future needs, both known and anticipated.
I write government reports...can you tell?

LOL I like that!

hoarders are creating an artificial shortage, just like they did with AR's 9 months ago. they suck and we hate them.

Yes comrade, we hate them all. We demand redistribution of firearms, ammo and all things of this world unfairly purchased by those capitalist pigs and their filthy money. Who do they think they are, giving life to the firearms industry in a time of economic down turn. They should all rot for their foresight, American spirit, and being first in line; rot every last one of them.



Get over yourselves.

If you have time to make such churlish posts, then you have time to surf the web and find good deals on ammo. They're out there...just have to check the sites. I mean...my ammo stockpile is only partially from hitting the WallyWorld for my 6 box allotment. The rest is from hunting at gunshows and surfing for deals on the web. You can get really good deals if you just search for them.


Or you can just sit there and continue to moan about how unfair it is to live in a country that still allows people to buy, keep, and store mass quantities of ammo and firearms whenever they want. But keep it to yourself, okay? Thanks.


Oh and while you're pouting, try reading some basic economics books, read about the history of business and fortunes in America and capitalism's role, get some practice with your new knowledge by standing in line for a new game system that comes out that only you and a few thousand people will get, then eBay it for double what you paid, and finally draft some legislation that says the government must provide ammunition to it's citizens and will allow those serving in the military to keep their firearms when honorably discharged...you know...kind of like the Swiss do. While you are at it...see about getting that whole automatic weapons thing changed too. I want a P90




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Just a note, I don't mean to pick on anyone, but we've all been hit by the ammo shortage. Most of us have had trouble getting some ammo or something at one time or another in the last year or so. We often help each other find good ammo sources or places that have it (after stocking up ourselves of course). But as with anything of value or scarcity, demonizing other people for their good fortune, sense, foresight, etc. is simply childish behaviour. A "me first, cut in line, I deserve it more" mentality is not helpful in life or to your fellow THR members.

 

[cpileri]

Time to be FAIR, guys re: hoarding

From an ethical or, if you will, a religious standpoint...

if you have a largess of a CRITICAL item and withold it from others in a time of need, then you are hoarding; which is unethical.

if the item is not critical, or there is a an adequate supply available; then keep as much as you want- you are not hoarding, you are saving/collecting.


At the current time, ammunition is NOT a critical, defined as necessary for health or life or livelihood, item. Example: if you withold your excess food from someone, its hoarding. if you withold your excess 2.5" floppy disks for an old Apple IIe computer, its no problem.

At the current time, nor at almost any time except combat, there is no time of need for ammo. (no need to argue this point, as I am sure some are want. its just an example to make a point)

For those of us who maybe can't afford the increased prices, or who want to shoot a scarce caliber, its aggravating. But it is unfair to accuse someone of hoarding ammo, at this point. Ammunition IS available, its just really expensive. Some calibers in some locales is not readily available, but its not a critical item nor a time of actual need.

Let's be fair, THRers!

C-

 

[armoredman]

I'd like to hoard primers, running low on SPP. But, I know I will find some.

 

[EddieNFL]

but I reload and have LOTS of components around..... more than I will likely use in 5 years in fact....

Same here. It's been my practice for years.

Some of the posts here remind me of the ant and grasshopper story. This argument occurred on another board some months ago. One particular member took exception to my commenting that I would give components/ammo to a friend in need, but IF I were to sell I would demand a premium price. He felt this was unethical and remarked he would like to find me in the desert needing water. I still chuckle about that one.

 

[blue_ridge]

Back to the issue, HR 4016. Not seeing any language about limitations being put on materials used to make ammo. If anyone knows of some part of the bill that says this, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, it sounds like a big over-reaction to a bill that is mostly about lithium-ion batteries, piping on cargo tanks and bureaucratic B.S.

In fact, I would say the only problem with this bill, is like almost every other bill, it is a bunch of government red tape being laid down on top of a mountain of existing red tape. There probably isn't a person who could make any real use of any of it.

 

[mustang_steve]

I'm sitting on about 700rds of .22lr and 110rds of 9mm. Not much of a stockpile there....I just keep enough around for 1-2 months worth of range time.

 

[browningguy]

Seriously, I am mad at absolutely any single gun owner that has hoarded ammo out there. I know plenty of them exist. These people are hurting us all by unnecessarily hoarding this stuff.

Well let's see, I started stocking up last June/July and currently have left about 6,000 rounds of .223, and 3,000 rounds each of 9mm and .40 (plus several thousand .22 LR). That doesn't sem unnecessary to me, since I am now able to go shooting whenever I want without needless worrying about who has ammo in stock. For the calibers I reload for I also have about 8,000 primers in a mix of Large Pistol, Large Rifle, Small Rifle and Large Rifle match, and powder and bullets to go with it.

Is that hoarding? To me it seems more like good preparation.

 

[nitetrane98]

The whole hoarding/SHTF thing is such a nebulous concept. Taken to the extreme, where there is no ammo available at any price, for instance by law, is it not reasonable to think there will laws banning guns also? If this were the case, would it be reasonable to think that a person would still be able to go out and burn 200-300 rounds at the range every weekend? What range? How about a law that prohibits the ownership of any type ammo, and no grandfather clause? 100 rounds of strictly SD ammo would easily last someone a lifetime. How many gun battles does one expect to be in? I think if we get to such a point, recreational shooting will be a fond memory.

 

[Dravur]

Seriously, I am mad at absolutely any single gun owner that has hoarded ammo out there. I know plenty of them exist. These people are hurting us all by unnecessarily hoarding this stuff.

Tough Kitties... I saw the writing on the wall. I bought up a ton of ammo and reloading supplies before the whole thing went down. I have not bought a single box of ammo since the Obamanation took office. You dont like hoarders... as I said Tough Kitties.

 

[huntsman]

Back to the issue, HR 4016. Not seeing any language about limitations being put on materials used to make ammo. If anyone knows of some part of the bill that says this, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, it sounds like a big over-reaction to a bill that is mostly about lithium-ion batteries, piping on cargo tanks and bureaucratic B.S.

In fact, I would say the only problem with this bill, is like almost every other bill, it is a bunch of government red tape being laid down on top of a mountain of existing red tape. There probably isn't a person who could make any real use of any of it.

I'm not up on legalese but wouldn't this bill continue the stupid Haz-mat fees and regs already in place?
HR 4016 IH

111th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 4016

To reauthorize the hazardous material safety program, ensure the safe transport of hazardous material in all modes of transportation, and reduce the risks to life and property inherent in the commercial transportation of hazardous material, and for other purposes.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-4016

 

[TX1911fan]

Hoarders are not the problem. Quit being such babies. You can't tell me that if you saw 5 boxes of ammo on the shelf at Walmart that you would only buy one so that someone else could have some too. Just because you didn't plan like others is no reason to be a cry baby now.

 

[bababooey32]

Seriously, I am mad at absolutely any single gun owner that has not hoarded ammo out there. I know plenty of them exist. These people are hurting us all by unnecessarily buying dwindling supplies of ammo as soon as it is stocked, leaving the shelves bare. Had these buyers been hoarding all along, the shelves would be full and they would stop WHINING!.

There…I fixed it for ya….

 

[wgaynor]

What's wrong with hoarding? It's like grocery shopping. Some people will go daily. Others will shop once a week. Some prefer to go to Sams club and shop once a month by buying in bulk. And others, like me, prefer to get the biggest chest freezer possible, and load on up while it's economically smart to do so.

Maybe you should stop shopping daily and buy a chest freezer.

 

[MinnMooney]

Let's get back on THREAD !!

If you need to talk about hoarding then please start a thread with that subject in mind. The O.P. is calling attention to HR 4016 which has nothing to do with hoarding but everything to do with hindering production and transportation of Hazardous Mat'l.

I just called James Oberstar's office in Washington, D.C. and voiced my approval of Rep. Sam Graves' (R-MO.) amendment to HR 4016.

I asked if Rep Oberstar is agreeable to adding this amendment to his bill but the call taker could not give me an answer. She took my number and said, "Someone will look into it & get back to me." I believe her as they have gotten back to me in the past with answers.

 

[Lou McGopher]

if you have a largess of a CRITICAL item and withold it from others in a time of need, then you are hoarding; which is unethical.

Being charitable may be admirable, but I see nothing unethical with keeping that which is rightfully your property. It is not my responsibility to provide for the needs of others.

If the govt would get out of the way with licensing and other regulations (like this bill), the market would resolve issues with shortages.

 

[Stophel]

I have always thought that shipping was the weakest link in the gunowning chain. Attacking shipping, which could be done rather surreptitiously, would be a good way for the enemies of Liberty to cause serious pain and disruption to shooters.

 

[mannac]

Meh, not a lot of shortages up here right now.

 

[cpileri]

Being charitable may be admirable, but I see nothing unethical with keeping that which is rightfully your property. It is not my responsibility to provide for the needs of others.

If the govt would get out of the way with licensing and other regulations (like this bill), the market would resolve issues with shortages.

There is nothing wrong about keeping what is rightfully yours- from a LEGAL standpoint.

What we confuse here are the philosophical definitions and differences between Legal, Moral and Ethical, and the concept of charity.

In (very) abbreviated terms:
Legal is that which is not forbidden by the laws of your society.
Moral is that which is correct conduct or behavior
Ethics is the study of morality; or the consideration of morality.
(i.e. when you say, "that behavior is immoral" you are applying ethics to your thought.)

Conversely, illegal is that which is forbidden by your social laws. Immoral is that which is conduct or behavior which is wrong. Amoral is applied when behavior does not consider morality- as in animal behavior. Unethical, for this discussion, is equivalent to immoral (though they are distinct philosophical terms)

Therefore:
it is ILLEGAL to take what does not belong to you. But it may not be immmoral- as in the proverbial 'steal to feed starving kids' question.

It is Legal to keep what is rightfully yours; but it may not be moral- for example: withholding your EXCESS food from a starving person, as discussed above, is legal but not moral.

It is not your responsibility to provide for the needs of others from a legal standpoint- but it IS the right thing to do. Remember: i am not suggesting you provide for anothers WANTS; but only their needs. (so far, as stated, ammmo is not a need)

From a teleological standpoint, it all depends on the highest law you consider yourself bound by. If the highest law you subscribe to is civil law, then there is nothing illegal nor immoral about saving ammo or food, or even about hoarding it. However, if you subscribe to a Higher Law as I do, then charity is not only admirable, it is required- and therefore immoral (wrong) for me not to do it.

Hope i made that clear.
C-




Quote:
if you have a largess of a CRITICAL item and withold it from others in a time of need, then you are hoarding; which is unethical.

Being charitable may be admirable, but I see nothing unethical with keeping that which is rightfully your property. It is not my responsibility to provide for the needs of others.

If the govt would get out of the way with licensing and other regulations (like this bill), the market would resolve issues with shortages.

 

[Bliggida]

When you look at a difference product, it seems to make a lot more sense....

Jay Leno has over 200 cars. I only have 6. How is that fair?
He makes more money than I do, and can buy more cars than I can. How is that fair?

Nobody needs 200 cars, he's hoarding cars.

 

[Stophel]

You have 6 cars? That's not fair!

 

[Owen]

if the item is not critical, or there is a an adequate supply available; then keep as much as you want- you are not hoarding, you are saving/collecting

.

but using your food example, if food is in short supply, what is an adequate amount to have in storage?

 

[cpileri]

.

but using your food example, if food is in short supply, what is an adequate amount to have in storage?

If I can limit my answer to remain withinn the framework of operating under the Ethos of Higher Law:

It is acceptable to keep enough for your immediate and extended needs- to the extent of storing enough to meet your minimal needs until you can be reasonably certain your need has passed; providing you have met the immediate NEEDS of any "charity cases" you are aware of.

In other words, it is not moral to allow yourself or family to starve when it is avoidable.

it is not moral to keep an amount in excess of your ability to resupply if others are in dire need.

it is moral to keep excess if that excess is only enough to get you minimally through to your next re-supply. i.e. i hae a months worth of a barely adequate food supply annd don't expect any more food for a month. if I give any away, i will starve. So its Ok to hold on to it even in the face of a starving neighbor. (*)

it is moral to keep excess in any amount, no matter how large, if everyone else's food needs are met.

Make sense?

If resupply cannot be reliably guaranteed, then it is permissable to keep an excess in any amount. i personally could not do this to a starving person. but it would be permissable.

C-

(*) Why? because its nnot moral for the neighbor to expect you to starve yourself for him.

 

[Judicator]

I'm not seeing the problem, my local Bi-mart has a good supply of just about every brand and caliber, a little shortage of JHPs, but that's it. Plenty of inexpensive handgun and rifle ammo.

 

[Clipper]

Moral arbiters sicken me...

 

[44Brent]

People who call others "hoarders" are opposed to private ownership of property. Let's call these people by their true name: COMMUNISTS.

That's right, if you oppose private ownership of property, and call someone a "hoarder", you are a COMMUNIST.