OC Spray. Sabre vs Mace vs POM.

[D.B. Cooper]

What are your thoughts on the various personal SD pepper sprays on the market? Is there much of a difference?

I've carried Sabre products for a while because that was all I could get. I don't like the trigger mechanism, because there is nothing to prevent it from being turned to the "fire" position in your pocket, and, many times over the years, I have pulled it from my pocket and it was on the fire position. Mace brand is available in my area now, and their product has a flip top cover over the trigger. That may be my next buy for my EDC. POM is not available in my area and can't be shipped to my area.

John Corriea, over at Active Self Protection Youtube channel, says minimum 0.5% active ingredient, although, I can't find any claim as to ingredient content percentages on any of those three products' websites. Does anyone think there is any appreciable difference in any of those three products' efficacy?

 

[Old Dog]

There's a ton of difference.

1.3 % is my absolute minimum. .5 is not enough. Gel is better than spray aerosol.

My preferred brand is First Defense by Defense Technology (owned by Safariland). I like the 360 - it's got a bladder and can be sprayed upside down.

.5 % not adequate.

Nothing smaller than a Mark 4 size. There are a couple of Sabre or Fox products I'll use, but I've used Def Tech for the past sixteen or so years with excellent results in the real world. Yes, I've sprayed quite a few folks. That said, I prefer the TASER as there's no need for decontamination (it takes days for the stuff to dissipate from the back of one's patrol car, too).

 

[D.B. Cooper]

That mark 4 size would be pretty difficult to conceal on one's person while wearing anything other than a heavy winter coat.

Regarding your preference for stream/gel over spray/aerosol, the counter argument to that is that the spray is effective more quickly because it is already in aerosol form and is more readily inhaled by the attacker. Gels take longer to take effect than do aerosols. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[lemaymiami]

On more than one occasion, in action on the street, when spray was employed - it got more than just the offender... Be very cognizant of wind direction and what's actually going on if using spray.... For an average citizen it works well - provided you're in a "first strike" situation where you can deploy the spray to your advantage and use it to prevent an attack... or as part of a retreat in action... That's the advice I'd give any family member...

 

[Craig_AR]

Thanks to D.B. Cooper for this thread. He has already well described his situation and options. My comments below are for others less aware of the choices and reasons for consideration.

I've been carrying POM since I learned about the OC pepper spray options from John Correia (ASP) at NRA Expo (Ft Worth) in 2019. Since then I have done some added online study of the options and also had hands on training with POM units from John Murphy (FPF Training).
My take on the options:
1. The primary pain from OC is on mucous membranes in eyes, nose, and mouth; not so much just on bare skin. Thus, most effective use requires good coverage of the face.
2. There are three spray types: stream, fog, and gel.
- Gel takes longer to impact the attacker than the other two, since the gel has to dry out on the skin a bit before the burn is really felt.
- Fog spreads out in a broad area, affecting everyone nearby including, sometimes, the person spraying it. As such, it can be a good choice against a group, such as a crowd in a riot or mostly peaceful protest. LEOs might find this option useful for those situations.
- Stream gives the best distance among the three with fairly good accuracy. (POM claims 10-12 feet in still air). This feature allows best option for affecting an attacking miscreant (human or animal) at a safer distance than hands-on proximity.
3. As in other aspects of life, size matters. Larger sizes may not be pocketable in your common wardrobe, and not really be EDC friendly. Again, LEOs have the advantage of duty belt carry of this and other items.
4. Not fun for a spray to go off in your pocket, so some form of trigger protection is a good idea.
5. Easy aim speeds deployment, so the shape of the container helps a lot in grabbing it with nozzle facing away and aligned. I find the pocket clip option with POM perfect for this feature.

With the above analysis, I have stuck with POM even as I learned more.
Quite disappointed that D.B. and others are geographically restricted by their legislatures on that option.

 

[hso]

Pepper Spray--The Truth

I am a pepper and defense spray insider. I've been involved with the defense spray industry for the past 30 years. I have worked with pepper spray in every possible capacity. Training, R&D, production, product development, you name it, I've done it. I am not here to promote any one particular...

www.thehighroad.org

We have a sticky on the topic that discusses the technical merits of OC spray that might be useful.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Quite disappointed that D.B. and others are geographically restricted by their legislatures on that option.

I think it's a hazmat shipping issue. Retail websites say it's laws that restrict shipping to AK (and a handful of other states), but I think, at least in my case, it's a shipping regulation. (Although I know that, for the other states listed as "cannot ship to," it's actual laws against pepper spray possession, at least certain sizes thereof. I can buy Sabre and Mace brands because retail outlets ship enough product to meet demand for a year on the barge which doesn't have the same rules as a air cargo, but no one here carries/sells/orders POM brand.

So that puts me in quandary. Sabre products that have a flip over cap protecting the trigger are too big to conceal, but their smaller, pocketable canisters don't have the trigger protection. So I'm just trying to learn if the Mace product, which does have the trigger protection is on par with the Sabre product and/or if it's at least adequate. I think I'm convinced to stay with a spray/aerosol type product over a gel, however, if gel is the only product available to me, then I guess it is what it is.

 

[Ethan Verity]

Saber Red has always been my go-to over Mace brand, just from the research I have done their formula seems a little more consistent, though I've not tested this to say definitively. I haven't looked into POM brand yet to have any opinion there.

Saber Red has a smaller (shorter) can version of their flip-top trigger style, as pictured here. This is what I personally carry, I think it's fine for pocket carry, and has a decent range of about 12' with a good volume of spray.

I've been pepper sprayed (on purpose) with Saber Red in the past, and would say it's pretty effective... Feels like your eyeballs are melting out of your face, lol.

 

[Speedo66]

Fox makes this “5.3”, supposed to be pretty strong. Flip cover over the trigger.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Saber Red has always been my go-to over Mace brand, just from the research I have done their formula seems a little more consistent, though I've not tested this to say definitively. I haven't looked into POM brand yet to have any opinion there.

Saber Red has a smaller (shorter) can version of their flip-top trigger style, as pictured here. This is what I personally carry, I think it's fine for pocket carry, and has a decent range of about 12' with a good volume of spray.

I've been pepper sprayed (on purpose) with Saber Red in the past, and would say it's pretty effective... Feels like your eyeballs are melting out of your face, lol.

I think that's available here at a LGS, but that's way too big to not print in pretty much anything I wear.

 

[Old Dog]

Regarding your preference for stream/gel over spray/aerosol, the counter argument to that is that the spray is effective more quickly because it is already in aerosol form and is more readily inhaled by the attacker. Gels take longer to take effect than do aerosols. What are your thoughts on that?

The issue is that one is probably more likely to deploy OC out of doors; it's actually more of a foam than gel, but it's far more accurate than regular aerosol. Even a slight breeze or light rain can impact accurate spraying. And yes, the ticket is you need to get a good hit in -- eyes, nose, even mouth. But the gel, once it takes effect, will last longer on the subject (unfortunately, in the backseat of one's patrol car as well). But under stress, I've seen individuals deplete an entire MK 3 size can before getting product on the subject's face. But the gel, when inhaled or aspirated by an agitated individual, is highly effective. Yeah, MK 4 is rather large for practical concealed carry. I keep one in my car door pocket, don't carry on-person anymore.

Both Sabre and Fox make a 1.3-1.33% formulary and it's comparable to the First Defense. While the MK 3 is more convenient, you really don't want to use it if you're more than 4 to 6 from an attacker. And the reality is, you're likely to have to go hands-on anyway at that point, which means you will get secondary exposure.

There are also those rare individuals who demonstrate near or total immunity to OC.

I guess it depends on what one's defensive philosophy is. I'm at the point where, while I know how effective OC can be, I prefer not to keep it in my personal defensive toolbox. But if one believes he/she must carry a less-lethal alternative in place of, or to augment a firearm, that's all well and good.

 

[RA40]

The more recent Sabre Gel comes with a flip top cover opposed to the older twist trigger to fire. I've had that twist trigger rotate as well which is a bothersome. Depends what variant is selected for that though. It is not applied to all their smaller carry versions which is SMH. Gives options for those who do prefer that twist or flip top access.

 

[Ethan Verity]

... I guess it depends on what one's defensive philosophy is. I'm at the point where, while I know how effective OC can be, I prefer not to keep it in my personal defensive toolbox. But if one believes he/she must carry a less-lethal alternative in place of, or to augment a firearm, that's all well and good.

Some places don't think you should be allowed to defend your own life via the United States Second Amendment, and put laws in place to blatantly violate your right to carry a firearm. In those instances, the can of hot sauce is better than nothing.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Some places don't think you should be allowed to defend your own life via the United States Second Amendment, and put laws in place to blatantly violate your right to carry a firearm. In those instances, the can of hot sauce is better than nothing.

I'm just waiting for some blockbuster Supreme Court case that eliminates that, but I have zero faith in it actually coming to pass. Until then, we play the hand we're dealt, complying with the law as we go.

 

[hso]

Some places don't think you should be allowed to defend your own life via the United States Second Amendment, and put laws in place to blatantly violate your right to carry a firearm

That might be relevant if D.B. Cooper weren't in Alaska where no such restriction exists.

the can of hot sauce is better than nothing.

But not better than a Taser. All Less Lethal defensive options have their failings, but some have significant advantages over others. In AK I'd worry about rain affecting OC and heavy clothing affecting Taser.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

...under stress, I've seen individuals deplete an entire MK 3 size can before getting product on the subject's face...

That's pretty much exactly why I think an aerosol is better than a gel.

But on that note, looking at the Mace website for the products available to me in my area, every single one of them is a gel or a foam. That narrows the focus. Now the question is simply is the Mace product adequate? Because I can either carry a Mk 3 size can of either Sabre Red or Mace w/ a flip top over the firing mechanism, or I can carry a pocket size can of the Mace w/ a flip top over the firing mechanism.

And we've already concluded the larger can isn't concealable, soooooo.....

 

[Ethan Verity]

But not better than a Taser. All Less Lethal defensive options have their failings, but some have significant advantages over others. In AK I'd worry about rain affecting OC and heavy clothing affecting Taser.

I would argue against that. The Taser makes sense in a LEO role, where your next follow up action is to put the cuffs on the person... however in a civilian defensive role, I think pepper spray is far better. The Taser is one shot, and both barbs need to make contact for maximum effectiveness... then, it only disables the individual during that moment of time the pulse is being delivered. Recovery time is pretty fast after that. Pepper spray will take someone out of the fight for a good 30 min, giving you plenty of time to get far away. Sure, someone could fight through it with sheer determination and will power, like in the LEO training courses... but their effectiveness is definitely taken down a few pegs. I personally think pepper spray is the best defensive option second to the firearm.

 

[hso]

Recovery time is pretty fast after that

Have you used or had a Taser used on you? When it was used on you did you recover quickly enough that the defender didn't have time to leave before you could bounce back and pursue them? When it was used on me and the others in the training session I was in, to a person we weren't going to be chasing anyone for several critical minutes.

This isn't an LE situation. A civilian uses these devices to escape, not apprehend or subdue the attacker. They both can give you time to make that escape if they were initially effective (with exceptions already discussed).

 

[Old Dog]

DB, I have zero familiarity with any current Mace products (except the original CS product that I was issued a long, long time ago...)

Give me a TASER over OC every day of the week and twice on Sunday. (I don't miss the "voluntary application" at my every other year TASER instructor re-cert, though; lotsa peer pressure and testosterone that day).

 

[12Bravo20]

I've used those little key chain pepper sprayers to good effect to disperse crowds inside of bars a few times. Generally once one person yells "pepper spray" they will all head for the door. I have also used those little pocket sized stun guns a couple of times while breaking up fights in a bar.

Both work pretty well on drunks no matter how intoxicated they are. Dealing with someone strung out on hard drugs is a different story. I've seen people high hard drugs get hit with tasers AND OC and not be fazed by either one.

I have to agree that you want the highest concentration of pepper when buying pepper spray. Don't bother using tear gas unless it has pepper in it too. There are plenty of people that are not effected by CS gas (tear gas). I am one that CS does not bother and I will laugh at you if you spray me with it.

I had to get trained on the different non lethal stuff while stationed in Germany and training up for the Bosnia Peace Keeping mission.

 

[Speedo66]

During our CBR training in basic we were in a room with gas, then had to remove our masks.

Nasty stuff, with your eyes, nose, and mouth all secreting liquids while your eyes burned and you choked and coughed.

Then they gas attacked us on the way back to the barracks.

Years later I was fooling around and put a gas mask on, then whipped it off because it still had a faint gas smell inside, which I clearly remembered.

 

[P89DCSS]

I carry the Sabre Red Pepper Gel in runner's size. I've used it on loose dogs that came after my leased dog. Hit 'em in the face on their muzzle and the dog walks away stunned. My dog will rip the attacking dog to shredds, the owner thanks me.

https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spray/sabre-runner-pepper-gel-adjustable-hand-strap

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I carry the Sabre Red Pepper Gel in runner's size. I've used it on loose dogs that came after my leased dog. Hit 'em in the face on their muzzle and the dog walks away stunned. My dog will rip the attacking dog to shredds, the owner thanks me.

https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spray/sabre-runner-pepper-gel-adjustable-hand-strap

View attachment 1164187

The problem with that canister, and the reason for this discussion, is that the trigger on that device has no protection from accidental discharge, other than the short twist of the trigger itself, which often inadvertently gets moved to the fire position while in one's pocket. Yes, that particular model is designed to be constantly carried in the hand at all times, but most of us can't do that throughout our entire day.

But I agree, Sabre makes an effective product.

 

[P89DCSS]

The problem with that canister, and the reason for this discussion, is that the trigger on that device has no protection from accidental discharge, other than the short twist of the trigger itself, which often inadvertently gets moved to the fire position while in one's pocket. Yes, that particular model is designed to be constantly carried in the hand at all times, but most of us can't do that throughout our entire day.

But I agree, Sabre makes an effective product.

I've been carrying it daily for 5 years without any issues. It's widely sold. Takes a little care but the vast majority of users don't agree with your assessment.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I've been carrying it daily for 5 years without any issues. It's widely sold. Takes a little care but the vast majority of users don't agree with your assessment.

I'm used to that. Go read some of my comments on the safety vs no safety on a carry gun discussion. I'm very risk averse. IMO, carrying a pepper spray canister with a faulty safety mechanism that could lead to an ND of pepper spray is just as bad as carrying a Glock with no safety.