Off duty Police told they can't carry at University

[hotshotshoting]

even though you are correct razorback and lashlarue some people are convinced that they are right regardless if they are wrong...

/trol

 

[Aguila Blanca]

the anbti gunners in the sga (student government) in responce to some actions by campus carry have responded by pushing this lil piece of policy through.and the folks on here are lined up in lockstep with em. funny in a trgic way. see guys who claim to identify with rtkba being punked by the antis. their cop phobia overwhems em.

It has nothing to do with "cop phobia." It has everything to do with recognizing that off-duty police attending classes at an institution of higher learning are just people, who are not any more OR LESS entitled to carry concealed weapons than any other student. What people here are complaining about has nothing to do with fear of the police (that's what "phobia" is -- fear). It's about the elitist attitude of the police who don't have any problem with all the other students being disarmed, but don't like it when they are required to play by the same rules.

How does that equate to "cop phobia"?

 

[dogmush]

even though you are correct razorback and lashlarue some people are convinced that they are right regardless if they are wrong...

/trol

Seriously. Look at the post right above yours. It's like the fifth time in this thread the actual law has been posted, with handy bolding. If that still doesn't work, ask your local cop the next time you lend them firepower, I'm sure they'll explain it to you.

All we're saying is off-duty cops should follow the law as written. We understand that it's annoying and inconvenient, it is for us too. But it's still the law.

 

[Intune]

even though you are correct razorback and lashlarue some people are convinced that they are right regardless if they are wrong...

Please add some specificity to "some people." Or, failing that, cite an amendment to the specific statute I quoted. Thank you.

 

[hotshotshoting]

k intune feel free to post the entire bill as opposed to a small portion... it will contradict itself again in later passages either way im done wasting my time!

 

[Intune]

I get the distinct impression that there is a whole bunch of LEO "that's not what they told us" going on right now. (Teasing) That's O.K.

I remember this one time (no, not at band camp) where I was ten feet from the airport security check and reached into my pocket to start getting stuff outta my pocket for the little baskets & felt my NAA .22. My wife said that I looked like I was gonna puke. I came close.

Yep, that's me. Common criminal, aisle 12. Intent, shment. Book 'em Danno.

 

[kludge]

Also, when police respond to such a disturbance on campus, how can they determine where the real threat is, if everyone is carrying a gun?

If the shooting stops before the cops get there, the good guys will put their guns back in their holsters.

If the shooting is still going on when the cops get there... and then he realized he was on The High Road...

 

[deaconkharma]

hmmm

Why don't we see the LEO's just fight for CCW on campus then? It seems many missed the jist of this. It is that they are only angry about themselves, say nary-a-thing when non LEO carry is trampled...and many see that as the very problem that has created the us versus them mentality. Remember (and I'll say it again..) I watched this very board a few years back track the LEO national carry and swear it was a segway to nationalized CCW. LEO activism stopped after it passed. Where is the solidarity there?
It's not a problem until it effects your group. Isn't this the way people fussed about the "Elmer Fudds" not doing anything about gun laws since it didn't effect them and their hunting rifles? Well here we are again. Not a problem until it effects "us".
So to state what has been said to us non LEO's...Get the law changed / write your congressman. Remember it's the law so we must all obey it we don't have to like it.

All that being said... I would love to have us all in solidarity get passed all inclusive CCW laws, but instead we are only concerened for our groups or cliques. Pass the CCW on Campus and have LEO automatically have CCW's with employment in LEO agency. That way it covers us all. If not, then I know where your heart is, and you can stop the incessant whining about your being special and deal with it like the rest of us "civilians".

 

[Intune]

k intune feel free to post the entire bill as opposed to a small portion... it will contradict itself again in later passages either way im done wasting my time!

YOUR TIME is being wasted & I'm the one doing the gopher work & printing pertinent passages & you have the temerity to say, "either way...?" Alluding to some type of dishonesty? That's rich. That's not how we function on The High Road.

Well ,it may behoove you to waste a bit more if you have any respect for the law of the land. Or travel.
Oh, and the fly-by-night website where I got this from are some fringe group called The Law Enforcement Alliance of America
http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html

And before you say it... You're welcome! If it saves just one badge it will be worth it.

H.R.218: The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004
(Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

One Hundred Eighth Congress of the United States of America

AT THE SECOND SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the twentieth day of January, two thousand and four

An Act

To amend title 18, United States Code, to exempt qualified current and former law enforcement officers from State laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed handguns.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004'.



SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:

`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

`(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer.

`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--

`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);

`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

`(3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926A the following:

`926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers.'.



SEC. 3. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is further amended by inserting after section 926B the following:

`Sec. 926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified retired law enforcement officer' means an individual who--

`(1) retired in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer, other than for reasons of mental instability;

`(2) before such retirement, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest;

`(3)(A) before such retirement, was regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 15 years or more; or

`(B) retired from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;

`(4) has a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement plan of the agency;

`(5) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the State's standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms;

`(6) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(7) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

`(d) The identification required by this subsection is--

`(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the standards established by the agency for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or

`(2)(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer; and

`(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State to meet the standards established by the State for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.

`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--

`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);

`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

`(3) a destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is further amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926B the following:

`926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers.'.



Speaker of the House of Representatives.

Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate.

 

[hotshotshoting]

everyone keeps telling me that's how we we do it on the high road...

how do you do it on the high road? all i see is people complaining.... and uniformed posts with a dash of informed posters...

i see people bashing everyone including leo, military, civilian.


i was under the impression this was a website for pro gunners to get together and share a common love.. instead of a whole bunch of Internet tough-guys...

and im partially to blame as well... either way "enjoy the highroad..."

 

[Intune]

That's it? Well, you're welcome anyway. Here's some more-

Got my dander up now. From the NJ Lawman.com site, hmm…

http://www.njlawman.com/Feature Pieces/HR 218.htm

It is expected that guidance on this law will come down from the State Attorney General's Offices, and we strongly recommend that officers wait until such time before carrying their weapons over state lines.

We would like to offer some warnings for all to heed.

First, when in another state you will be subject to the use of force laws of that state. Additionally, the laws of arrest, self defense, and firearms in other states will be different and will govern any actions taken.

HR 218 will not be a defense to possessing hollow point bullets, carrying a weapon on a school campus, carrying a prohibited weapons, carrying a weapon in a casino, etc. Some of these scenarios are illegal in certain states. Know HR 218, but also know the laws of that state in which you intend to carry!
Second, and this goes double for uniformed officers, you have to identify yourself. You need to identify yourself by badge and by word. Officers who work primarily in uniform are the worst at this since they are not accustomed to identifying themselves at scenes. The uniform takes care of that. When identifying yourself, use the loudest voice possible so witnesses will hear you and be able to corroborate your account of the incident later.

Below we have provided a basic breakdown of the new law. We again caution that guidance should be sought by your agency and/or the Attorney General's Office before acting on the new HR 218 law. Consult the administration from your own agency regarding HR 218 before acting on it. Also, at the bottom of the page we have provided a link which will bring you to the actual text of the new law.

 

[Intune]

everyone keeps telling me that's how we we do it on the high road...

I've seen it mentioned, have mentioned it but have never had it mentioned to me. "everyone keeps telling me..." May be a flag.

how do you do it on the high road? all i see is people complaining.... and uniformed posts with a dash of informed posters...

That's already a whole lot better than seeing dead people, eh? Perhaps gravitate towards those who posses the "dash." Do you know the old Indian ((India) proverb of the blind men and the elephant? I highly recommend it at times like these.

i see people bashing everyone including leo, military, civilian.

"Sometimes a ball needs hitting." Babe Ruth, 1921
Naw, Intune, 2008

Oleg and the Mods have a very low tolerance (in fact, none,) for boorish behavior from any member and will respond posthaste and in a decisive manner to any flagged post.

i was under the impression this was a website for pro gunners to get together and share a common love.. instead of a whole bunch of Internet tough-guys...

I thought NAMBLA was the North American Miniature Bowlers LA branch. Color me WRONG!

and im partially to blame as well... either way "enjoy the highroad..."

We all have our moments. No harm done. I'm probably in trouble for that NAMB thing but I'll take one for the team (don't even think it!) To lighten up the mood 'cause this is a great site peopled by kind, smart folks. Excluding, moi.

If the bill that I posted had an amendment, I couldn't find it. If an LEO is reading this thread and has an (OMG, I'm a lawman unknowingly breaking the law,) moment, that's a good thing. Not because it belittles them or makes them feel stupid but because it may save their badge. That's a good thing.

 

[Deanimator]

Why don't we see the LEO's just fight for CCW on campus then? It seems many missed the jist of this. It is that they are only angry about themselves, say nary-a-thing when non LEO carry is trampled...and many see that as the very problem that has created the us versus them mentality.

Well that was the same attitude shown by the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police lodge when it came to disarming those convicted of domestic violence. They didn't mind domestic abusers being disarmed... so long as they weren't cops. And make no mistake, their ENTIRE argument was premised on reasons why cops and ONLY cops should be able to possess and carry firearms after being convicted of domestic violence.

There are those who claim that some police don't want a double standard in the law, or that some police don't consider themselves "better" than other citizens. Clearly, those assertions are NOT true, if for no other reason than the deafening silence displayed by officers in reaction to such attempts to create two sets of laws, one for law enforcement and one for everyone else.

 

[divemedic]

LEOSA has been posted in its entirety several times, and there are people here who still insist that it gives LEO the authority to carry anywhere and anywhen. That does not appear to be the case, but anyone who tries to correct those members is accused of cop bashing. It is not very high road to attack a person instead of correcting him. That is usually a sign of a weak argument.

Anyone who has proof that LEOSA (or any other Federal Law) does anything more than remove the need for LEO to have a CWP, please post it. I really do not think it is cop bashing to expect cops to follow the same rules as anyone else. If anyone feels that position is bashing, please explain.

 

[Intune]

I really do not think it is cop bashing to expect cops to follow the same rules as anyone else. If anyone feels that position is bashing, please explain.

It's not and that is exactly why the wise mods have let this excellent, informative thread remain open. You won't receive a reply. Look at some of the attempts to shut this down-

There is no love for LEO here.
Give it a break.....
Where are you getting your mis-information from?
OMG I just wasted ten mins of my life reading this!
Unfair yes but instead trying to get somebody else in hot water use that energy getting yourself out of it.
And once again, I am amazed at the absolute hatred some people have for anyone who DARES wear a uniform and a badge.
So, y'all go ahead, eat your sour grapes and thump your chests behind the safety of your computer, like a REAL hairy chested mountain man.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled mud slinging contest.
i find the anti leo issue a bit disturbing....
I now return you to your pointless bashing and hair splitting.
I am very amazed at all the cop bashing on this thread.
It (cop-bashing) is the official sport of THR, and it crops up whenever a thread even hints at the words "cop," "law enforcement officer" and "police officer.
A new member with a chip on his or her shoulder posts something negative about LEO's, which in turn generates a thread that stretches on for pages but is pretty much an unproductive wee-wee contest.
Cop bashing is fun though isn't it?
I do find it amusing also that people who think everyone in the usa should have the same rights... don't you think that depending on your job you will get additional different "privileges"?
Skewed sources, skewed opinions.
Time to shut her down.
Agree, way off topic.
yep i think this thread is getting us no where.
ps this is getting very off-topic...
do you have a trade that involve ticking off folks who might actually act on their angry impulse (as opposed to internet heros)
Okay lets put this thread to rest. Off Topic.

Here we were just trying to perform a public service for our brave men & women in law enforcement. Informing them, almost a remedial training session if you will & we receive catcalls instead of kudos. Sometimes I just don't know why we do it. A thankless job, I tell ya.

 

[deaconkharma]

unfortunately no amount of 'splainin...

you can only persuade or explain things to those with minor differences in opinion. This seems to be a divide that might not be able to be bridged. Fundamental fairness. Most think fairness is a simple concept but human nature tends toward faction. Faction is detrimental to fairness. We all, as gun owners, share a commonality but then have issues between the "fudds" (as I have seen them lovingly called) the "libertarians" the "LEO".
If we could agree to fundamental fairness for ALL and to defend the rights of all and not side with one's faction we could get a lot done.

Symbolism... maybe I'm picky but even the thin blue line sticker belies alot.
ever notice that on both sides of the line are black? Is that a mistake? is that saying there is no "white" or good? why only black? does that mean there's LEO and then there's the rest? just an example. picky? maybe.

People have fussed about the "Fudds" only caring about their rifles and not the EBR crowd and the high cap crowd.

WE all got together and focused on good as gun owners and helped to defeat the AWB, and to get support for LEO national carry and now it's time for the favor to be returned. You want to carry on campus lets ALL get it. Forget faction, and stand with us not just your subgroup.. We don't wanna bash, we seek to raise examples to seek awareness of how things look to us. If you disagree fine, but please be aware, to us it is not bashing. It is just making a point of how we perceive fundamental fairness or lack thereof.

 

[tpaw]

I am pro conceal and carry or open carry, but one thing concerns me. On most colleges and universities, you have rathskellers (bars) where liquor is sold to just about anyone. ID is rarely checked, if at all. I've been to these places and some can get pretty testy. Young male college students are full of testosterone, and the girls are looking to have fun as well. I've seen fights, books being thrown at each other, beers hurled at each other, students passing out on the table and missing classes and so on. One girl who posted on the THR said that if you knew my boyfriend and the friends he hangs around with, they would be the last one's I'd want to see carrying guns on campus. It gave me pause to think about what she said, and what I saw. JMO

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

good point i work on rental houses around mary washington and most of em aren't gun safe.but a student could verywell be safe and shouldn't be penalized because so many are moronic

 

[tpaw]

a student could verywell be safe and shouldn't be penalized because so many are moronic

I agree, but my concern is what do you do with the morons who have guns? The young female student who posted made a very profound statement, "if you knew my boyfriend and the friends he hangs around with, they would be the last one's I'd want to see carrying guns on campus." It is my feeling that tragedies can and will happen. A bunch of tanked up kids with guns spells trouble. It's a tough "catch 22" to deal with. What's the answer? I don't want to deprive anyone the right to carry a gun, but on the same token, I don't want drunk kids on campus with guns.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

sadly many of the trouble morons already have guns. shoot its true in high school

 

[razorback2003]

Out of State Police on Duty

Somekid,

I live in the Southwest corner of TN and it is very common for law enforcement officers to run criminals across different state lines....Memphis into Southaven/Olive Branch, MS and West Memphis, AR across the bridges into Memphis. Along with this comes with extraditions from TN to Mississippi. Mississippi police (usually uniform) go to Memphis to pick up their guy to take back and charge in Mississippi. Do you think once they cross into TN and they pick up an inmate at the jail (that is probably properly posted) that they are breaking the law if they don't leave their handguns in the ditch before crossing into TN? Of course not...out of state law enforcement (especially on duty) do not usually have any 'restrictions'.

If then you should ask that the UTenn and Knoxville city police arrest armed Alabama state troopers when they escort Nick Saban in the stadium. I personally have seen a Southaven, MS unmarked car run someone several miles into Memphis and Memphis police helping the Mississippi officer arrest the guy (and i'm sure he was later taken back to north MS).

As far as off duty, HR218 covers a lot of things that states previously restricted. HR218 only covers the CONCEALED firearms, if you read closely. Often times, in legal sense, a person with an Arkansas CHL is better off than a NJ cop (who does not reciprocate off duty carry with AR), because it is illegal to carry in parks in Arkansas, unless you are an 1)on duty cop 2)off duty AR OR from a state that allows AR cops off duty carry. The NJ off duty would technically be in violation of park carry, but funny thing is could carry in Arkansas schools, unlike someone with a CHL.

 

[Intune]

Good points guys. Now is the time to stick together and regain some of the ground we lost as CITIZENS. Forget race, religion, occupation, sex (did I just write that? ) Social status or any of the other myriad social mores that tend to divide rather than unite a people.

Some (many? Most?) schools are party zoos. But these kids are the same age as those we ask to fight our wars, handling devastating firepower on a daily basis and believe me, many a morning PT run was a stumble for more than a few.

Can we, in good conscience, ask for a campus policy of say, 25 & up can CC? Grad students, faculty and visitors? Faculty only? Would that be prudent or pragmatic? Does it not trample the rights of 21yo permit holders? Conversely, does the 18yo hellbent on mayhem give a whit about rights or laws?

Do we rescind the policy if a ten-year study shows more accidental gsw's & homicides than all the previous gun-free school's combined?



I don't know the answers but I do know that the world can be a dangerous place and it ain't the odds, it's the stakes. I, as a responsible, law-abiding gun owner have a right to protect myself. I have no doubt that working together we would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I agree, but my concern is what do you do with the morons who have guns? The young female student who posted made a very profound statement, "if you knew my boyfriend and the friends he hangs around with, they would be the last one's I'd want to see carrying guns on campus." It is my feeling that tragedies can and will happen. A bunch of tanked up kids with guns spells trouble. It's a tough "catch 22" to deal with. What's the answer? I don't want to deprive anyone the right to carry a gun, but on the same token, I don't want drunk kids on campus with guns.

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater again. Possibly excepting Vermont and Alaska, since they don't require permits for CCW, probably every state that allows CCW (or even open carry) also has a law that either doesn't allow any carry in bars or restaurants that derive more than 50% of their income from sale of alcohol, or have laws that prohibit carry when under the influence. Why do you feel it's necessary to pre-judge and pre-penalize the innocent because of what some people might do? That's called "prior retraint" in legal mumbo-jumbo, and in theory it's unconstitutional. Unfortunately, in practice it has become so commonplace that we often fail to even recognize it when it walks up and bites us in the nether regions.

And please don't try to tell me that LEOs never get drunk and out of control. I know too many LEOs to swallow that one.

 

[Intune]

razor', on-duty cops can do a ton of stuff. We applaud it in most cases as a job well done. No argument. Anybody that has to hang around Sabin long enough to cross state lines deserves a commendation!

As far as off duty, HR218 covers a lot of things that states previously restricted.

But states still retain the right to RESTRICT CERTAIN LOCATIONS to off-duty LEO's & CCW's!

HR218 only covers the CONCEALED firearms, if you read closely.

Do most off-duty police wear their uniforms?

 

[Deanimator]

I am pro conceal and carry or open carry, but one thing concerns me. On most colleges and universities, you have rathskellers (bars) where liquor is sold to just about anyone. ID is rarely checked, if at all. I've been to these places and some can get pretty testy. Young male college students are full of testosterone, and the girls are looking to have fun as well. I've seen fights, books being thrown at each other, beers hurled at each other, students passing out on the table and missing classes and so on. One girl who posted on the THR said that if you knew my boyfriend and the friends he hangs around with, they would be the last one's I'd want to see carrying guns on campus. It gave me pause to think about what she said, and what I saw. JMO

A few months ago, a cop got insane drunk, punched out a 63 year old man and a 50 year old woman in a bar without provocation, ran away and was found passed out in some bushes, lying on top of his gun. Do he and the cop who stomped the barmaid justify preventing police from carrying firearms? If not, why do the acts of SOME college students justify disarming ALL of them?