Officer Needs Assistance

[orangeninja]

Hi guys...

I am thinking of pitching an idea to the Chief of Police of a Department of about 70 Officers on getting carbines. He was looking into MP5's but they are just flat out too expensive. What we need is the following.

1. It has to be pistol caliber due to the nature of our job....a .223 WILL overtravel for the enviroment it will be used in.

2. The gun needs a kick butt warranty....it will be handled by people with less than loving hands.

3. A .40 caliber is almost a necessity...but other handgun calibers may be considered.

4. This gun may be exposed to the elements 24/7 for weeks at a time with little to no maintenance.

5. It needs to be semi-automatic capable.

6. Cost is a factor.

Some of the ones I have considered are the

Ruger PC Carbines in both .40 and 9mm...the tend to be a little on the big side though...we are trying to get away from the Remington 870 with 18 inch barrels....I have not ever seen a PC carbine or how it holds up though.

Kel Tec....love how they will fit our pistol mags...but plastic sights? Those would be destroyed in a week.

Hi Point....Love the Warranty...nice guys on the phone and they are about to ship the .40's. But how is the quality? the finish? etc.?

MP5? Too expensive...is there a cheaper alternative?

Anything else? Don't even think AR15....I might get fired for even suggesting it...haha.

 

[Legionnaire]

Disclaimer: I'm not an LEO.

One of the few guns I regret getting rid of was my Ruger PC-4. It had the kick-butt dependability/reliability you want. I had a ghost ring mounted, and it was great. Wish I still had it as a truck gun. Lone Wolf use to (still?) sell PC-4s converted to take Glock magazines. Had mine taken Glock mags, I'd still have it! You need to handle one. Definitely lighter and quicker to shoulder than the Rem 870.

 

[tmix]

berretta CX4 Storm.

The take Berreta pistol mags
Available in 9mm or .40
Ambidexterous everything, including charging handle and ejection port side.
Priced around $650

They shoot like a dream!

My $.02

 

[Dionysusigma]

Thompsons

(Hey--who ever said that "forward" was a step in the right direction? )

 

[cedarsavage]

How about Auto-Ordanance Thompson semi-auto in .45 caliber? They run between $900~1000, but a large buy would get the price way down. Other than that, put slugs in your shotguns.

taa, cs

 

[cordex]

Don't even think AR15....I might get fired for even suggesting it...haha.

How about an AR-15?
*dodges flames*
I mean an AR-15 in .40S&W or another pistol caliber.

 

[bogie]

1. It has to be pistol caliber due to the nature of our job....a .223 WILL overtravel for the enviroment it will be used in.

2. The gun needs a kick butt warranty....it will be handled by people with less than loving hands.

3. A .40 caliber is almost a necessity...but other handgun calibers may be considered.

4. This gun may be exposed to the elements 24/7 for weeks at a time with little to no maintenance.

5. It needs to be semi-automatic capable.

6. Cost is a factor.

Doesn't have to be a pistol calibre - 12 or 20 gauge should work wonders - are you going to be in a situation where more than a 50 yard shot is required?

That said, why does it "have" to be semi-auto? An unscoped 16" .357 or .44 lever gun will group inside 8" at 100 yards with my eyes...

 

[Jim K]

Of the ones listed and with price and capability considered, I would go with the Hi-Point. They are rugged, reasonably accurate, and simple to maintain. Reports are that they have good customer service, but it is like the Maytag repairman.

I know some folks will have the blue horrors, especially those who think anything under $1000 is no good, but that is my opinion.

With anything you buy, wring it out to the tune of at least 200-300 rounds a gun; if it fails, return it. You can't afford the "but it only jams once in a while" thinking advanced by some posters. If the department can't stand the gaff on that much ammo in .40 (it is also practice ammo, of course), then stick with 9mm that the Feds will give you freebie.

(P.S. to Cedarsavage on Thompson semi auto: Did you ever actually handle one of those heavy, awkward clunkers? OK in a subgun, ridiculous for a semi.)

Jim

 

[bogie]

Just don't get caught up in the "tacticality for tacticality's sake" trap...

You're in Texas, right? Urban or rural? What is the anticipated use?

Personally, I'd steer away from semi-autos simply because of the "spray & pray" tendencies that tend to surface. I'd rather have Officer Fife knowing that he's got one bullet, and then he has to cycle the action, so he'd better make it count, than figuring that he'll dump all 30 into (and around...) the target, and then stuff in a fresh magazine... Give a couple of the better shooters scoped Savages in .223, and everyone else gets a shotgun... Personally, if I have to absolutely, positively make sure every SOB in an alley is in a world of hurt, I'd rather have 10 rounds of #4 buck than have a full 30 round mag of 9mm... Spend the money you save on practice ammo.

Keep in mind that ammunition interchangeability is an interesting concept, but a pistol cartridge out of a longer barrel is still a pistol cartridge. It's a little easier to aim, but at the same time, you've got a limited effective range, not much longer than the effective range of the pistol itself.

 

[orangeninja]

okay.....this is for somthing like a VERY urban area. The guns would be used in close quarter or in a building and maybe out to 50 yards...no more. Semi auto is a must, a lever action? come on, thanks anyway. I will take a gander at that Beretta. Slugs? No, in fact we already use shotguns, they are big, heavy and ackward....how will having slugs help? We are needing smaller, lighter, yet still powerful while being more managable on recoil. So....shotguns we have....we are looking for somthing else.

 

[P95Carry]

alduro .... I wish I still had this piece ... it'd be ideal for you I am sure. Not sure if still made .. and anyways it was by Stirling Armaments, outa Dagenham, UK.

16" barrel ... folding stock ..... 34 rnd mag .... reliable as you wish .. and prone I could group mine 8" at 100 yds .... with homeloads. Oh the cal ... 9mm Parabellum.

If it were available I think it would be the cat's whiskers for your job.

 

[orangeninja]

That would indeed be COOL!!!


Though the chief would just see a "lawsuit" with a folding stock

 

[Dionysusigma]

I thought the AWB didn't apply to LE agencies...

 

[ProCharger]

http://www.berettausa.com/product/spotlight/spotlight_cx4_main.htm

http://www.cx4storm.com/

The Beretta Storm definately gets my vote....gun is short, currently available in 9mm, and soon to be available in .40S&W and .45acp. Price is right, they are also based of the beretta 92 pistol so reliability should not be a problem whatsoever. just my $.02

Brett

 

[Balog]

alduro wrote:

4. This gun may be exposed to the elements 24/7 for weeks at a time with little to no maintenance.

Good Lord man, do you keep the damn things in a uncovered ready rack outside of the station or something? Can you not afford cleaning rods and Hoppes #9? Are you taking them into a war zone with no resupply? Sheesh.

 

[Jeff White]

I'd rather have a 12 gauge shotgun then a pistol caliber carbine. If you need some info on getting into a patrol rifle program contact me offline. I'll be glad to send you our policy etc.

Jeff

 

[Daedalus]

Kel Tec sub 2000 with this front sight ( http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63628 ) if plastic really bothers you. A friend has a kel tec in 40 cal and it is a really nice gun and you can stow it very easily. It is also really goofy looking so you wont scare many sheeple with it (until they see it folds in half...). Kel tec also has excellent customer service;

 

[Roadkill]

IAI M1 Carbine.

rk

 

[mondocomputerman]

How about the 9MM sten guns of WWII?

 

[sully]

alduro,

1. It has to be pistol caliber due to the nature of our job....a .223 WILL overtravel for the enviroment it will be used in.

All Law Enforcement ammunition for handguns, shotguns, and rifles will travel a very long ways if they miss their intended target. The 40sw, 9mm, .45acp will all travel about as far as the .223 in open air. The real issue of overtravel & overpenetration comes down to hit factor. You must hit the intended target for the projectile to perform as designed.

The .223 is actually a safer round, even in fmj, than any standard Police Hollow Point handgun ammunition, & 12ga buckshot & slug ammo that we currently use in Law Enforcement. Safer by that the .223 caliber projectiles break up faster and penetrate less than the handgun and shotgun ammunition that we use in Police Work. That's right the .223 penetrates less which makes it safer.

Keep in mind that a handgun caliber is still a handgun caliber whether it is fired through a handgun or subgun such as the MP5. A MP5 is made to shoot 4" groups at 25yds, although most seem to shoot a little tighter. A .223 carbine, such as the AR15, is made to shoot approximately 1" groups at 100yds.

You state that you only see your patrol using these carbines out to 50yds. We used to think the same thing. A couple of years ago we had a 27minute shootout over a 4-block inner city area with one active shooter who was on foot. We had 3-cops shot during this incident. We were fighting him with handguns, shotguns with 00-buck, and several MP5's. Many magazines from the MP5's were emptied at the badguy and he was never hit. Our average shot was 150-175yds (one city block). He was never touched with the pistol ammo. There were several lessons learned here, first that we brought handguns/shotguns/subguns to a rifle fight, next that we need to train our Officers at longer distances beyond 25yds because it can happen here, anywhere, and anytime.

You should seriously look at the AR15/M16 system. If that is totally objectionable then consider something like the Mini-14, HK93, etc. If the problem is the .223 then somebody needs to wake up to scientific and ballistic data.

On a last note, a pistol caliber carbine is better than no carbine at all.

Stay Safe,
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
www.thedefensiveedge.com

 

[natedog]

I thought police departments could get deals (IE free or close to it) on army surplus M-16A1s...replace the fire control parts with semi-auto ones, and perhaps if it needs to be a pistol caliber buy conversion kits. I don't know if that is practical for 70 officers, though.

 

[SDC]

Does your department have a standard duty sidearm? If so, that might narrow down your possibilities a bit, if you want to "sell" the fact that magazines are cross-compatible between the carbine and your pistols.

 

[KPersimmon]

I don't personally own one, but FWIW here's another vote for the Beretta CX4 Storm in whichever caliber.

 

[RobG]

Excepting the strong leaning to a .40 (Beretta or Ruger PC), I'd say go with an M1 Carbine with 110 gr. SP.

 

[Wedge]

I don't think that any 'pistol' (meaning semi-auto caliber) whether it is 9mm, 40 S&W or .45 ACP is going to have any balistic advantage out of a carbine than it would out of a handgun...about the only advantage that I can see is one of aiming. I don't see you gaining any sort of power advantage. Armored foes? These are still wimpy (relatively) handgun rounds being thrown at them...

A miss is a miss. And that miss is going to do some damage.

I don't see the point of pistol caliber carbines. I would rather have a real rifle round. If you have side-arms, and you have shotguns, why not supplement your armory with some real rifles/carbines? I think an M4 would be spot on...