Sylvilagus Aquaticus
Member
Too bad Marlin doesn't still make the Camp Carbines in 9mm and .45ACP. Didn't look all evil and mean. Used standard commercial pistol mags, too.
Regards,
Rabbit.
Regards,
Rabbit.
Officer Needs Assistance
- Thread starter orangeninja
- Start date
- Status
No4Mk1*
Member
If your officers are holstering their pistols and grabbing long guns, they need more than a .40S&W. I would keep the 12 gauges or change to an intermediate caliber like .223 or 5.45x39mm. I think the only place for pistol calibers in long guns for short range is in sub-machineguns, but It doesn't seem like that is what you want. As mentioned already, misses are much more likely to hit an innocent than a hit that "overpenetrates."
.223 over-penetrates LESS than 9mm .40 or .45
You can find good, WELL CONDUCTED research to prove this. Further, it penetrates armor (unlikely, but possible), and has better terminal performance.
If... you can't talk'em into that...
The H&K UMP available in .45 and .40
I recommend asking this question at : www.tacticalforums.com on "ground zero"
Lot of LEO's and Mil types over there. Real smart, real professional
-Morgan
You can find good, WELL CONDUCTED research to prove this. Further, it penetrates armor (unlikely, but possible), and has better terminal performance.
If... you can't talk'em into that...
The H&K UMP available in .45 and .40
I recommend asking this question at : www.tacticalforums.com on "ground zero"
Lot of LEO's and Mil types over there. Real smart, real professional
-Morgan
orangeninja
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2003
- Messages
- 3,117
GREAT HELP!!! Thanks guys I appreciate it. I will indeed give Beretta a call.
No the AWB does not impact LEO agencies...but a WW2 Sten would probably be an eyebrow raiser.
We will use these in a controlled enviroment, a secure area to be exact with officer who will stand post day and night. The area is in the middle of a very densely populated section of town and passers by are pretty much constant. An AR15 would be cool...but the bottom line is that the chief is against it. You can't tell the chief to "wake up to ballistics" haha.
The Shotguns use 9 pellet low recoil buck....really effective but 1 shot can knock out 3 bystanders along with the perp....thus my search begins.
We did consider the AR 15 but it was shot down *pun* officially. The MP5 is cost prohibitive, but the debate is still hot on that one. The Beretta has the "name recognition" the chief desires and the price that our budget minded higher ups approve of. I will give these guns a good look and may call for a demo one.
The Kel Tec will not survive with our crew. It may get dropped, it WILL get rained on, carried 24/7 by hand etc. I don't think it can make it.
I like the Hi Point carbines, however, they don't have the "name" that Beretta has in the market, and sometimes that is a turnoff to those who don't want or care to know. Other than that, they look cosmetic wise, like industrial parts made into a gun. Nothing wrong with that however, I will order a test version of this also.
The Ruger caught my eye. I may request a test version of this. In fact "I" wanted one of these or a Mini 14. But this is for the Dept.
Thanks for your help guys...I will start calling manufacturers.
No the AWB does not impact LEO agencies...but a WW2 Sten would probably be an eyebrow raiser.
We will use these in a controlled enviroment, a secure area to be exact with officer who will stand post day and night. The area is in the middle of a very densely populated section of town and passers by are pretty much constant. An AR15 would be cool...but the bottom line is that the chief is against it. You can't tell the chief to "wake up to ballistics" haha.
The Shotguns use 9 pellet low recoil buck....really effective but 1 shot can knock out 3 bystanders along with the perp....thus my search begins.
We did consider the AR 15 but it was shot down *pun* officially. The MP5 is cost prohibitive, but the debate is still hot on that one. The Beretta has the "name recognition" the chief desires and the price that our budget minded higher ups approve of. I will give these guns a good look and may call for a demo one.
The Kel Tec will not survive with our crew. It may get dropped, it WILL get rained on, carried 24/7 by hand etc. I don't think it can make it.
I like the Hi Point carbines, however, they don't have the "name" that Beretta has in the market, and sometimes that is a turnoff to those who don't want or care to know. Other than that, they look cosmetic wise, like industrial parts made into a gun. Nothing wrong with that however, I will order a test version of this also.
The Ruger caught my eye. I may request a test version of this. In fact "I" wanted one of these or a Mini 14. But this is for the Dept.
Thanks for your help guys...I will start calling manufacturers.
B
BeLikeTrey
Guest
Mondo, I agree!
I think the Sten would be a great Idea! It is easy to maintain and will fire while still loaded with cosmoline. That gun, is in my most humble opininon, one of the all time great designs. A monkey can keep that gun in working order. Simplicity is the beauty of that design! And easy to suppress for your black pajama squad too.
Drawback, t's not the uber-tactical plastic beauty queen that most would want. Of course I'd take the Sten over any of these mattel toys out so far
And it is still useable as a club in a pinch.
I think the Sten would be a great Idea! It is easy to maintain and will fire while still loaded with cosmoline. That gun, is in my most humble opininon, one of the all time great designs. A monkey can keep that gun in working order. Simplicity is the beauty of that design! And easy to suppress for your black pajama squad too.
Drawback, t's not the uber-tactical plastic beauty queen that most would want. Of course I'd take the Sten over any of these mattel toys out so far
And it is still useable as a club in a pinch.
I understand your cheif isnt sold on the .223 idea. But really I think that 9mm or .40cal AR15's would fit your bill. With LE pricing they may be within or below your price range too. Plus they would be compatible with virtually any accessories/sighting systems on the market. If it helps you could contact the Seattle Police Department and ask them what they think. Last i checked they were still issuing pistol caliber ARs as patrol rifles.
Kilroy
Member
From Olympic Arms web site
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results
Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results
Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
Kilroy
Member
Also from Olympic Arms web site
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
Just thought of something else...didn't H&K make an MP5 chambered in 10mm? Do any other manufacturers make a carbine chambered in 10mm?That would cover your needs for .40 caliber pistol caliber and would deliver a lot more punch than any of the other pistol calibers.
Kilroy points out a very interesting article there. I would also like to highlight it for those who may not be familier with Olympic Arms. People might say "well they make AR's so of course they are going to push the .223 as a good LE round". What i would like to point out is that OlyArms makes more pistol calliber uppers than just about any other AR manufacture out there. If there is anyone who would benefit from the mistaken belief that .223 makes a bad LE round then it's them.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Another thought. How about a Mech-Tech carbine conversion kit? I've never shot one, but if you're a Glock shop, they make the kits for full size Glocks now.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
artherd
member
I refer you, and your chief to the following articles:
1) http://www.ammolab.com/_223_vs_handguns.htm
This was conducted by the people at Gunsite, one of the most respected LE and military and civilian training facuilities in the world.
2) http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html
This is from Olympic Arms, who make both 9mm and .223 AR-15 variants. They both clearly indicate that .223 from a rifle is less dangerous in terms of over-penetration and missed-shot collateral damage, than .40 and 9mm out of HANDGUNS (let alone rifles.)
Lastly, with all due respect, if your chief of pollice is making tactical decisions that may affect the lives of the citizens he is sworn to protect, and basing them KNOWINGLY on false information, then not only does he not belong in office, but he may be liable for criminal and civil prosecution.
This may come off harsh, but your chief simply has no buisness being 'pig headed' about matters of public safety.
If after all that, you still have to have a pistol caliber carbine (and all the disadvantages to both pistols, and carbines.) Then the Beretta C4X Storm is pretty nice.
1) http://www.ammolab.com/_223_vs_handguns.htm
This was conducted by the people at Gunsite, one of the most respected LE and military and civilian training facuilities in the world.
2) http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html
This is from Olympic Arms, who make both 9mm and .223 AR-15 variants. They both clearly indicate that .223 from a rifle is less dangerous in terms of over-penetration and missed-shot collateral damage, than .40 and 9mm out of HANDGUNS (let alone rifles.)
Lastly, with all due respect, if your chief of pollice is making tactical decisions that may affect the lives of the citizens he is sworn to protect, and basing them KNOWINGLY on false information, then not only does he not belong in office, but he may be liable for criminal and civil prosecution.
This may come off harsh, but your chief simply has no buisness being 'pig headed' about matters of public safety.
If after all that, you still have to have a pistol caliber carbine (and all the disadvantages to both pistols, and carbines.) Then the Beretta C4X Storm is pretty nice.
TacticalSquirrel
Member
There is some really good advice here, and some advice that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Sully and others speak very well, and it would be in your departments best interests to try and go that angle at all costs. Shotguns in the urban environment have the issue of liability with the buck as it spreads and overpenetration with the slugs. Shotguns are too long to be effectively maneuvered in tight quarters of hallways and other urban issues, have officer training issues due to recoil, and issues with tactical reloading. Pistol caliber carbines and subguns are a good second choice, but only if you get good equipment. We had a pair of officers work with the Ruger pistol caliber carbines at the last carbine class my agency had. It was very difficult to do much shooting since they ran dry every 10 rounds. One doesn't carry enough of those magazines on the belt to handle if there is an extended fight. They are awkward to maneuver due to the lack of a pistol grip for some one-handed needs (opening doors), and the lack of tac-sling swivels lets them hang very awkwardly when the officer needs to transistion to their handgun (Better be training with that!). The only reason I would consider a subgun over a 5.56/.223 carbine is for certain entry-room clearing scenes where the muzzle blast of the .223 is too much. The bullet performance and penetration issues of the .223 makes it so much more of a benefit than not. If you absolutely HAVE to go with the pistol caliber gun, I would reccomend the HK UMP. Cost is under $1000, decent reliability is there, and it comes in 40SW. I haven't handled the Beretta's Storm yet, but the ergonomics look good. HK is not making the MP5 in 40 or 10mm anymore according to one of my coworkers that just called them reference his MP.
If you can get it through your Chief's head to go with a .223, and you can't get the AR platform accepted, look into the HK G36 possibly. If you want something that's REALLY reliable, and cheaper than all of them, call European American Armory and ask for a Law Enforcement sample of the Saiga .223. Or if you do some more research, look at some of the AK builders in the US and ask for quotes or samples of a AK102 or AK105. You won't be disapointed at how the Saiga models will handle anything that your officers can throw at it. I know because I own one....
If you can get it through your Chief's head to go with a .223, and you can't get the AR platform accepted, look into the HK G36 possibly. If you want something that's REALLY reliable, and cheaper than all of them, call European American Armory and ask for a Law Enforcement sample of the Saiga .223. Or if you do some more research, look at some of the AK builders in the US and ask for quotes or samples of a AK102 or AK105. You won't be disapointed at how the Saiga models will handle anything that your officers can throw at it. I know because I own one....
Cosmoline
Member
Why not a levergun? Limiting it to semis seems too restrictive considering cost is an issue. I'll bet the department could get a great deal on a bulk purchase of Marlin '94's in .357. Or what about the old IMI Timber Wolf .357 pumps. The last shotgun news had an advert selling a whole bunch of them in parts form for next to nothing. Those are great, fast twappers. Plus it would be, IMHO, extremely cool to see LEO's with leverguns. Just like JOHN WAYNE. And a heck of a lot more "tactical" than most people realize.
Devonai
Member
I'll throw in behind Roadkill and SolomonShort for the M1 Carbine. This is a win/win deal.
1. 110 grain JSPs have a good track record. Ammunition is very inexpensive.
2. Magazines are incredibly inexpensive. Last I checked 15-rounders were going for about $6/each.
3. A fully loaded rifle with two spare magazines in the buttstock pouch is going to weigh less than a comparably equipped AR-15. Female officers will love it.
4. It's "PC" and doesn't look "mean." The Chief may be just as concerned about public misinformation about the .223 as with what the round can really do. Of course, sheep are spooked by anything that is pointy or goes bang.
5. Cleanup time is faster than an AR-15 barring a dunk-tank.
6. There are no end to the accessories for this rifle, including some spiffy synthetic stocks and no-gunsmith scope mounts.
My second choice would be the Ruger PC-40.
1. 110 grain JSPs have a good track record. Ammunition is very inexpensive.
2. Magazines are incredibly inexpensive. Last I checked 15-rounders were going for about $6/each.
3. A fully loaded rifle with two spare magazines in the buttstock pouch is going to weigh less than a comparably equipped AR-15. Female officers will love it.
4. It's "PC" and doesn't look "mean." The Chief may be just as concerned about public misinformation about the .223 as with what the round can really do. Of course, sheep are spooked by anything that is pointy or goes bang.
5. Cleanup time is faster than an AR-15 barring a dunk-tank.
6. There are no end to the accessories for this rifle, including some spiffy synthetic stocks and no-gunsmith scope mounts.
My second choice would be the Ruger PC-40.
artherd
member
Devonai- I would argue that the .30 carbine is a very poor choice in terms of over-penetration. It is signifigantly hotter than many pistol rounds, and has a better BC.
You almost might as well be using .308 indoors at this point.
TacticalSquirrel brings up a good point about .223's sound signature. It's loud. Especially indoors, especially out of a 16" barrel (or shorter) and most expecially with a muzzle brake (avoid those.)
Since you are LE, consider a SureFire suppressor to save your department's ears (and subsequent lawsuits from both deaf officers and civilians.)
You almost might as well be using .308 indoors at this point.
TacticalSquirrel brings up a good point about .223's sound signature. It's loud. Especially indoors, especially out of a 16" barrel (or shorter) and most expecially with a muzzle brake (avoid those.)
Since you are LE, consider a SureFire suppressor to save your department's ears (and subsequent lawsuits from both deaf officers and civilians.)
bogie
Member
Now I might be a slow learner, but...
You say that the ossifer in question is standing guard in a secure area, with multiple passersby...
First, if you need to protect the ossifer from the multitude, take a few hundred bucks and buy some good laminated glass and reinforced concrete.
Second, if the ossifer needs to shoot back, that means that the excrement has contacted the air handler, and all bets are off... Stick a 12 gauge with 3" 00 buck shells _and_ a CAR-15 where the public can't see 'em/touch 'em, but the ossifer can, and be happy.
Third, if standing post day and night in this densely populated area is a punishment detail, maybe the ossifer might be a hazard with too much firepower...
Fourth, if it is for something like a desk sergeant, etc., I'd nix the whole concept. Why? You don't want a situation where Bubba comes in drunk, grabs the weapon, and goes to town.
Fifth. DO NOT try to substitute firepower or "evil looks" for training. A black rifle doesn't magically turn an ossifer into a trained countersniper.
You say that the ossifer in question is standing guard in a secure area, with multiple passersby...
First, if you need to protect the ossifer from the multitude, take a few hundred bucks and buy some good laminated glass and reinforced concrete.
Second, if the ossifer needs to shoot back, that means that the excrement has contacted the air handler, and all bets are off... Stick a 12 gauge with 3" 00 buck shells _and_ a CAR-15 where the public can't see 'em/touch 'em, but the ossifer can, and be happy.
Third, if standing post day and night in this densely populated area is a punishment detail, maybe the ossifer might be a hazard with too much firepower...
Fourth, if it is for something like a desk sergeant, etc., I'd nix the whole concept. Why? You don't want a situation where Bubba comes in drunk, grabs the weapon, and goes to town.
Fifth. DO NOT try to substitute firepower or "evil looks" for training. A black rifle doesn't magically turn an ossifer into a trained countersniper.
TacticalSquirrel
Member
Lever actions are fine for more rural outdoor scenarios. Where they don't work well is in tight close quarters where the angle of the grip and the need to cycle the lever makes it so that it is difficult for weapon retention as well as tough to use in entry type scenarios. The fact that they are slow to reload and have a limited capacity is a disadvantage as well.
KPersimmon
Member
If you don't mind, keep us interested parties posted on your experiences. It could be that our suburban/rural department might also benefit from such a weapon.
Thanks!
mattx109
Member
I'm probably late in the game here, but if there's a requirement for a subgun and a preference for .40, but the MP5/40 is too much...
What about an HK UMP .40?
I don't know the prices for agencies, but the UMP should still be less than an MP5/40.
I have to say, however, that I agree with Sully from several posts back. A .223 is highly recommended.
What about an HK UMP .40?
I don't know the prices for agencies, but the UMP should still be less than an MP5/40.
I have to say, however, that I agree with Sully from several posts back. A .223 is highly recommended.
rauchman
Member
Greetins,
I'd have to agree with mattx109. The .223 is probably the better way to go, but if that's not agreeable to your chief, definitely check out the UMP's. I understand they cost significantly less than the MP5's and can be had in 9mm, 40, & 45. From the little bit that I have read by users, they like the MP5 better, but for what it is, it would be hard to outdo the UMP with anything else in the category.
I'd have to agree with mattx109. The .223 is probably the better way to go, but if that's not agreeable to your chief, definitely check out the UMP's. I understand they cost significantly less than the MP5's and can be had in 9mm, 40, & 45. From the little bit that I have read by users, they like the MP5 better, but for what it is, it would be hard to outdo the UMP with anything else in the category.
bogie
Member
Possibly the reason why the chief isn't okaying a rifle is that the officer in question doesn't _need_ it.
Selfdfenz
Member
How does your dept do it's bids?
The process can be two steps.
Step 1
Post a call for vendor interest, white papers, etc. There are resources that are free to your department that will be seen by many that have various options and products lines.
In your listing put down all your requirements and see what the interested parties have to say, and have to offer. Ask for cost comparisons technical data, whatever you think important. The more info you ask for, the more info you will get.
Step 2
Put out a bid based on the info you obtain from Step 1.
And that's the way it's done. PM me and I can give you a few pointers.
S-
The process can be two steps.
Step 1
Post a call for vendor interest, white papers, etc. There are resources that are free to your department that will be seen by many that have various options and products lines.
In your listing put down all your requirements and see what the interested parties have to say, and have to offer. Ask for cost comparisons technical data, whatever you think important. The more info you ask for, the more info you will get.
Step 2
Put out a bid based on the info you obtain from Step 1.
And that's the way it's done. PM me and I can give you a few pointers.
S-
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