amd6547
Member
I have shot various PGO shotguns for decades, and can shoot them very well at HD ranges. I simply could not care less about what Zak, Justin, or Dave think about them.
Oh no!...PGO!
- Thread starter Blakenzy
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Hey Zak, I wasn't putting words in your mouth even though you appear to be an "expert" when it comes to gun competition shooting.
I was simply trying to point out that the way some of you experts approach the topic it seems like it would be suicidal to attempt to defend one's self with a PGO.
Thanks for taking the time to explain the advantages of running 3 gun with a full stock and for pointing out that the fastest shooters all use full stock guns.
If I ever decide to play at 3 gun I will remember to bring the appropriate tools.
I was simply trying to point out that the way some of you experts approach the topic it seems like it would be suicidal to attempt to defend one's self with a PGO.
Thanks for taking the time to explain the advantages of running 3 gun with a full stock and for pointing out that the fastest shooters all use full stock guns.
If I ever decide to play at 3 gun I will remember to bring the appropriate tools.
No I missed where it became really worth worrying about the fact that it might have some de minimis worth when it is so clearly less useful than a fully stocked gun.
A scintilla is defined as a trace amount. When talking about evidence it is often used to express the least possible amount of evidence you could have while actually having some evidence.
I recognize it is useful in the same way a chainsaw or a morning star is usefull. I don't think anyone has every really denied that point.
His point is merely the same one I made with my jennings 22 or single six elk gun examples. If one posits a really bad idea people are going to tell you it is a bad idea and why. That is not what you are characterizing it as. If having legitimate critiques aimed at your ideas or those of others offends you a discussion board probably isn't for you.
Substantive disagreement is not low road and cannot reasonably be said to be so.
Zak Smith
Member
Yes, you should bring the right "tools" to a 3Gun match if you choose to attend; however, that was not my main point. Practical shooting competition is relevant because it tests shooters and their equipment in a wide variety of shooting problems - that they didn't think up - and objectively measures how well each one does.
One might rightly wonder what shooting 40 stationary steel plates at medium distance with a shotgun has to do with self defense. However, I could just as well set up a stage - and have - that involves shooting a small number of very close targets while traversing a "hallway", or shooting some moving targets to simulate a home invader.
Fighting is about mindset primarily, tools are down on the list a couple rungs. So defending yourself with a .22LR or a PGO or a shovel isn't necessarily "suicidal" if you have a good mindset and it's the best tool you can bring to bear at the time. But this thread is about tools, and the PGO shotgun is an inferior tool than a stocked shotgun. Competition tests tools (and shooters) and that is one of the things that it demonstrates in an objective way.
One might rightly wonder what shooting 40 stationary steel plates at medium distance with a shotgun has to do with self defense. However, I could just as well set up a stage - and have - that involves shooting a small number of very close targets while traversing a "hallway", or shooting some moving targets to simulate a home invader.
Fighting is about mindset primarily, tools are down on the list a couple rungs. So defending yourself with a .22LR or a PGO or a shovel isn't necessarily "suicidal" if you have a good mindset and it's the best tool you can bring to bear at the time. But this thread is about tools, and the PGO shotgun is an inferior tool than a stocked shotgun. Competition tests tools (and shooters) and that is one of the things that it demonstrates in an objective way.
You are belying the point that 3 gun and other practical shooting events while not a perfect analog are some of the best analogs we have for defensive shooting, particularly when treated as such by the shooter.
Out of question what is your standard for "very well"?
I remember thinking once that I could shoot very well at home defense ranges. I have repeatedly had experiences that have caused me to re-evaluate what qualified as shooting very well and finding out I fell (some time very far) below that. Maybe you are Jerry Miculek good. I'm not saying you aren't. Subjective self evaluations are not always telling particularly if one doesn't even really know what they should be evaluating. I've met people that thought they could shoot very well because they could hit targets reliable on a static square range. They of course couldn't effectively deal with various malfunctions or reloads. Others couldn't draw and fire in a reasonably quick time. Some couldn't hit moving targets. Others could hit targets while they were moving or from various shooting positions, or under stress, etc. I remember the first time I shot in an environment that required some of the above mentioned things. That was a moment I was hit hard with the fact i couldn't shoot nearly as well as I though I could because I had been using a poor or at least very incomplete measure of my skills.
Someone much wiser than I am once noted that humility is the catalyst to all learning. I'm not saying other people should dictate your gear but ignoring people with a wealth of experience because you already know everything you need to know and they couldn't possibly tell you anything is not a recipe for progress. It has been my experience that people with such attitudes often know much less than they think they do.
Youngster
Member
Thank you for your replies Zak and Justin, I have nothing further to add.
I actually don't think that is much of an issue. As I stated earlier take a PG shotgun go out ans shoot it with some quantifiable measures, time and accuracy come to mind. That should give you a pretty good idea.
Je vois que vous etes Canadian, Anglais n'est pas votre langue maternelle? You seemingly have access to the internet try google when people use words you don't know
.It is this
why a 22 LR certainly can kill an elk I've seen cattle slaughtered with them sure its not a 7mm but you cannot say it is useless. At standard bow hunting ranges I can hit an elk head size target with a single six. The big difference I see is that the stakes are not nearly as high when all I'm trying to do is kill an elk. If I fail I still get to go home. But the where on the spectrum you place each bad idea is not the point the point is they are both bad ideas and you can expect people to let you know it.
amd6547
Member
I also have "wealth of experience"...I am 53, and have been shooting since I was handed a single shot 22 rifle at age 5 by my Father. I shot my first PGO shotgun circa 1980, a Mossberg 500 with the Pachmayr vindicater kit, as well as my shooting buddies Mossberg with the Choate "AR15-style" PG. I have since used the OEM Mossberg grip, and what I consider the best of breed, the Speedfeed birdshead grip.
I am in full agreement that a fully, traditionally stocked shotgun is superior for most uses.
Where I differ, is the disdain openly expressed toward anyone who expresses a positive opinion about the usefulness of the PGO shotgun. No, it is not appropriate for 3-gun matches. The example above of the serbu shorty used as a pick-up gun in a match is ludicrous. Of course a group of even accomplished shooters picking up a very different, special purpose weapon with zero previous experience will exhibit slower times.
I stated that I can shoot my speedfeed equipped Mossberg "very well at HD ranges", and the question was asked what my standard for "very well" is...the answer is simple. Across the length of my living room, from my bedroom to my front door, I can fire from the hip (the speedfeed grip fired from the hip is very much like a standard stocked shotgun from the hip) and place a standard 2 3/4 00 buck round (all I shoot) right where I want it faster than it takes to type that...point and shoot.
That having been said, though I own three 12ga shotguns, including the PGO Mossberg and a Remington Model 11 riot semi auto, and shoot them very well, I am most likely to defend myself with an M1 carbine or a 357mag revolver.
I am in full agreement that a fully, traditionally stocked shotgun is superior for most uses.
Where I differ, is the disdain openly expressed toward anyone who expresses a positive opinion about the usefulness of the PGO shotgun. No, it is not appropriate for 3-gun matches. The example above of the serbu shorty used as a pick-up gun in a match is ludicrous. Of course a group of even accomplished shooters picking up a very different, special purpose weapon with zero previous experience will exhibit slower times.
I stated that I can shoot my speedfeed equipped Mossberg "very well at HD ranges", and the question was asked what my standard for "very well" is...the answer is simple. Across the length of my living room, from my bedroom to my front door, I can fire from the hip (the speedfeed grip fired from the hip is very much like a standard stocked shotgun from the hip) and place a standard 2 3/4 00 buck round (all I shoot) right where I want it faster than it takes to type that...point and shoot.
That having been said, though I own three 12ga shotguns, including the PGO Mossberg and a Remington Model 11 riot semi auto, and shoot them very well, I am most likely to defend myself with an M1 carbine or a 357mag revolver.
Blakenzy: Thanks for posting that video, the guy shooting that gun was enjoying himself, you can clearly see that while watching that video. There has been more info put out, for or against, a PG than I have ever seen, If you get rid of the BS there is some good info on these pages, from EVERYONE.
Where was anyone personally attacked in this thread? Can you cite any instance? No one ever said anything negative about a positive PGO supporter. Never happened. We do not attack the person, we will however attack an argument. That is the basis for thought provoking discussion.
If you feel you or anyone else in this thread has been personally attacked then by all means pm a mod and bring it to their attention.
fireside44
member
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2009
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- 1,145
Wow, four pages of this verbal dogpiling.
I saw what happened on the other recent thread where a guy takes an old shotgun and saws the buttstock off for some funnin' around and the experts show up to tell him and everyone else how useless his new toy is.
I see plenty of guys buying useless crap and posting on it here on THR, pistol grip shotguns possibly being among them. But a man should be able to have his gun and shoot it too without it being endlessly berated in every related thread about it's functionality.
There is undoubtedly a non THR tone being taken towards PGO fans by some mods and it is disgusting and should come to an end.
I saw what happened on the other recent thread where a guy takes an old shotgun and saws the buttstock off for some funnin' around and the experts show up to tell him and everyone else how useless his new toy is.
I see plenty of guys buying useless crap and posting on it here on THR, pistol grip shotguns possibly being among them. But a man should be able to have his gun and shoot it too without it being endlessly berated in every related thread about it's functionality.
There is undoubtedly a non THR tone being taken towards PGO fans by some mods and it is disgusting and should come to an end.
Again no one has attacked another member personally. Going after an argument that is thin at best is not a personal attack. Neither Justin nor Zak ever said that anyone was stupid for wanting to use a PGO shotgun. In fact both of them have said on repeated occsations that PGO shotguns have a purpose and fill some rolls better than other shotgun. But that for their, and most people's, intended uses a PGO shotgun does not fit the bill.
I agree. Right up until some one tries to tell me that a PGO shotgun is just as good as a full stocked shotgun. Outside of VERY close range a PGO is next to useless.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Do you have proof to back that up? Links to posts? Quotes?
amd6547
Member
This what I wrote in the last big go-round on PGO shotguns, after repeated demands to shoot a course of fire and "Prove" PGO's were useful:
"Here is my COF...
2:00am, my darkened house...
Bad guy steps into the light cast by the streetlight across the street that slightly illuminates my living room. He is 10 feet away and I can clearly see he is armed.
He is unaware of my presence.
I am confident I can take this shot and hit where I want 10 times out of 10."
And this was the response from a moderator:
"Here is my COF...
2:00am, my darkened house...
Bad guy steps into the light cast by the streetlight across the street that slightly illuminates my living room. He is 10 feet away and I can clearly see he is armed.
He is unaware of my presence.
I am confident I can take this shot and hit where I want 10 times out of 10."
And this was the response from a moderator:
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amd6547
Member
Frankly, since that thread, I completely avoid the shotgun forum.
However, when I go on THR, I click on "New posts", or I wouldn't have seen this thread.
However, when I go on THR, I click on "New posts", or I wouldn't have seen this thread.
You guys asking for proof of disdain and low road posts really have your blinders on when it comes to this topic....
Just the fact that 90% of PGO threads are locked within days of starting should tell you it's a touchy subject around here....
Making a case against PGO is not hard even for a novice shooter.
Maybe every time PGO's are discussed there should be a disclaimer saying that PGO's are not better then full stock shotguns, just to get that out of the way so the discussion can focus on what a PGO can do instead of what it can't!
Mods, Put a big sticky at the top that all the Nebs can read so they understand that PGO is not the best choice for most and then let the rest of us discuss PGO's once in a while focusing on the positive aspects (limited as they may be) instead of the negatives....
Often I've read posts where the anti PGO's have stated that they are concerned that a newbie shooter may read a positive comment on THR about PGO's and then decide to buy one as their only home defense gun believing that it is the best choice.
This justification for berating PGO fans could be solved with a simple sticky for Nebs.
Just the fact that 90% of PGO threads are locked within days of starting should tell you it's a touchy subject around here....
Making a case against PGO is not hard even for a novice shooter.
Maybe every time PGO's are discussed there should be a disclaimer saying that PGO's are not better then full stock shotguns, just to get that out of the way so the discussion can focus on what a PGO can do instead of what it can't!
Mods, Put a big sticky at the top that all the Nebs can read so they understand that PGO is not the best choice for most and then let the rest of us discuss PGO's once in a while focusing on the positive aspects (limited as they may be) instead of the negatives....
Often I've read posts where the anti PGO's have stated that they are concerned that a newbie shooter may read a positive comment on THR about PGO's and then decide to buy one as their only home defense gun believing that it is the best choice.
This justification for berating PGO fans could be solved with a simple sticky for Nebs.
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Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
AMD, that certainly wasn't me that did the cartoon.
But let's take a peek at your scenario.
Imagine your perp brought a couple friends. All armed. You have three targets to neutralize in a very short time frame. Wouldn't a stocked shotgun work better?
Or, the distance increases from 10 feet to 10 yards, the length from my back door to the front landing here.With a PGO, fired under stressed conditions and for extremely high stakes,is the lower hit probability acceptable?
PGOs are not useless. There's a few very specific niches they work well for. But, for defending one's life,family and community under conditions we cannot dictate or schedule, they are not a good choice.
If you disagree, and you certainly have that right, I vehemently urge you to frequently practice. One can achieve a modicum of expertise with a PGO or folder, but it takes a lot of commitment and plenty of BA/UU/R.
But let's take a peek at your scenario.
Imagine your perp brought a couple friends. All armed. You have three targets to neutralize in a very short time frame. Wouldn't a stocked shotgun work better?
Or, the distance increases from 10 feet to 10 yards, the length from my back door to the front landing here.With a PGO, fired under stressed conditions and for extremely high stakes,is the lower hit probability acceptable?
PGOs are not useless. There's a few very specific niches they work well for. But, for defending one's life,family and community under conditions we cannot dictate or schedule, they are not a good choice.
If you disagree, and you certainly have that right, I vehemently urge you to frequently practice. One can achieve a modicum of expertise with a PGO or folder, but it takes a lot of commitment and plenty of BA/UU/R.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Leadhead, there is a thread on PGOs in the Shotgun 101 threads stuck up top here. More info in the Fighting Shotguns Sticky.
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